The Middle Ground

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  • Mr VMr V ✭✭✭

    Thanks Curly! I’ll get there – unfortunately don’t have another 10k lined up for a while. I have a feeling the 20 seconds I need to drop to go sub 40 might haunt me all summer image

     The only downside of doing parkrun is that I’m doing a half in 3 weeks so really need to do a long run at the weekend. I can obviously incorporate parkrun into this but my brother is coming up in the afternoon and wants to go out for a 10k run. If I do 10/11 miles in the morning and than a 10k in the afternoon this will get me the miles. How much does it matter splitting the run into 2 – will I lose some/all the benefits of a nonstop long run?
  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭

    I dont think its the same as a continuous LSR but others may have different ideas...I think the time on feet part of LSRs is key so breaking it loses that.

    However, 3 weeks out are you going to get THAT much benefit from it anyway and could you do an LSR the weekend before only more slowly or perhaps a touch shorter? (just a suggestion not sure on that tbh)

  • RatzerRatzer ✭✭✭

    Zion, sounds like you almost had competitive seasons there, with plenty of racing and just maintaining the conditioning in between.  It may have helped you to peak.

    Viper, very unlucky.  It sounds like you were knocked before even starting!  Reminds me that I have to book a hotel for my mara...

    Moraghan, do you not count pace progressions as endurance runs, or are you running them relatively short?  I think on balance that I would ditch endurance (depending on the stage of training) on a sort of Last-in-First-out basis.  General aerobic conditioning is harder to lose than the shorter term, quality stuff.  I presume that longer than a few days at a time and you would be starting to look at going back to the basic endurance stuff?

    I have a holiday, two weeks in (intense) heat, weeks 7 and 6 before a marathon.  My difficulty will be any long runs during those weeks, but I will have a swimming pool.  I should be doing some pretty hard running during that period, which I should be able to keep up due to the shorter time - I can fit it in at 5 in the morning before it warms up too much.  Should I be too worried about losing the long runs?  Can I maintain endurance through swimming?  (Some sources say yes, but I can't see how it will benefit the running except in slowing down the loss of conditioning.)

  • Mr Viper always diappointing when a race doesn't go right. For me it has nearly always turned out be a bug lurking or one I haven't got over and shouldn't have raced anyway. Hope breaking the barrier comes sooner than later for you. I knew a really good female club runner who couldn't break 40 mins and eventaully gave up running because of it!!!!!Don't let it haunt you too much!
  • RatzerRatzer ✭✭✭
    Mr V, think I agree with Curly on that question.  3 weeks before a half you're probably not going to be getting much physiological benefit from the long run before the half, though you may definitely get some psychological benefit.  Two runs gives you different benefits, and is not as good as one long run if you're in the endurance building phase (base period) of your training.  But you could run one at a faster pace, or with a bit of race pace at the end, and the other gently, or otherwise mix it up, and you will still get benefits.
  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭
    Glad to hear I'm not making up stuff for once...image
  • Mr V - was it humid?  It was here yesterday and that always has an affect on my running. 

    I've been a bit poorly this week, so have had to take my cutback week this week instead of next week.  Shouldn't lose anything though, just frustrating more than anything.  Went out this morning and it was lovely to be running at 6:30 in daylight and warmth rather than the dark and cold winter.  I think running in the summer is good for motivation!

  • Mr VMr V ✭✭✭

    Thanks Ratzer and Curly that has reassured me. I will be doing the parkrun as part of my first run so that will be my faster bit and my afternoon run with my brother will be nice and steady.

    Zion - I can't believe your friend gave up because it! It's funny that sub 40 seems to be such a barrier for some people. I'm sure it's more psychological than physical though. Can't complain too much though as most of my times compared to last year are 5 -6 minutes quicker - so if I improve anywhere near as much over the coming year I'll be ok.

  • Mr VMr V ✭✭✭

    Hilly yes it was humid and no breeze to cool down either so that might have had an effect. I'm with you that this weather is great for training motivation but perhaps not so great for fast race times.

  • Viper - Before I read Hilly's comment I was also going to ask whether it was humid because yesterday evening and this morning have been quite bad on that front.

    It can have quite an effect on the oxygen transportation (or certainly feels that way).

    I've just experienced the same thing myself, looking to do a 36:xx 10K on the track (which should have been relatively okay) I could tell early on that I wasnt going to be able to hold the pace without really putting myself through the ringer. I changed the session to 2x5K instead and covered the first 5K in a modest 20:01. During the second 5K I was struggling to even hold on to that pace so called it a day after 3200m in 12:58.

    So if it was humid and you got within 2 minutes of your target you can probably look forward to getting under target pretty soon.

    Having said that, I may have called it a day early this morning because of the activity of the other 'track users'. I was under the impression that a running track was for running (clue in the name and all that!) but this morning there were 26 people on track and I was the only one running. There were two walkers (which is fair enough) and 23 women who felt the need to sprawl themselves across 7 lanes of the track and proceeding to howl like orgasmic baboons while stepping from side to side to Banarama.

    I think I did well to get through 20 laps faced with that..... imageimage

  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭

    Huh!?! Aerobics or summat - I would have asked them to move over...

    (I hate humidity too - it makes my hair frizzy as well!)

  • RatzerRatzer ✭✭✭
    parkrunfan wrote (see)
    and 23 women who felt the need to sprawl themselves across 7 lanes of the track and proceeding to howl like orgasmic baboons while stepping from side to side to Banarama.
    All you need is an Irishman and a punchline! image
  • Mr VMr V ✭✭✭

    PRF - My question is why did you not join in? Surely more fun than 20 laps  image

  • Today I suffered from a perfect cardiac drift. It's 20 celcius out there this morning and I was very, very slow because of it - 9:37/mile compared with 9:20 normally. And because I was trying to keep my heart rate below 70% MHR, it meant my pace slowed steadily throughout the second half of my run. I'll get my sporttracks pace data up in a while and show you. But I was astonished at how much of an impact it made.

  •  Mr Viper wrote (see)

    PRF - My question is why did you not join in? Surely more fun than 20 laps  image

    Well if Banarama could have been bothered to turn up and perform live I might have joined in! image

    They were rather large ladies, who left their drinks on the inside of the track. Every lap involved a rather nervy moment while going past them hoping there wasn't going to be a horrible collission as one wandered across lane 1 - I wouldnt have come out at all well from such a collission I can tell you!  image

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    21st April: 5.6 miles with the middle 4.2 miles at 7:49 min/mile .... av HR was 145 bpm (75% wHR)

    19th May: exactly the same session. Middle 4.2 miles were at 7:55 min/mile ... av HR was 136 bpm (68% wHR).

    I'm quite chuffed with the improvement over 4 weeks. image

  • It was very humid yesterday. I remember last year's Tynedale killed me, everyone had a bad race. I've spoken to a few already who said they found it tough last night.

    I find if I'm going for a big psychological milestone (for me this year it was a sub 45 10k and sub 1.40 HM) it took a few goes to crack it because I did put myself under pressure. If it had of been say 46 min and 1.41, I wouldn't have been that bothered being a bit over, but when you get to certain numbers... they can drive you mad.

    Looks like I'm going to have fun again at Edinburgh on Sunday. 26 degrees last year. It's later in the day too because of the HM going first. Sigh.

    Duck, will be very interesting to see the effects.

    Now, talking about the weather brings me to a "why??!!" observation. I'm boiling when I run in a vest and shorts so I can't understand runners who run (and race) in crazy clothing? I saw loads of people wearing a jacket on Sunday, maybe even gloves and last night saw different people running in tracksuits and thick hoodies... it was uncomfortable for me just to be walking around. I don't get it image

  • Dr Dan, brilliant improvement image.
  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭

    Great improvement Dan - especially with the bad weather image

    I dont know Kaysdee - I am happy to run in shorts pretty much the whole winter too (except when its minus then the trousers come out)...but I do get very hot when running and am liable to look like a prawn so anything that helps reduce my prawness is welcome...I do wonder if some people just are much cooler and find the layers comfortable...or maybe they just like ending up as a big ball of sweat image

  • Mr VMr V ✭✭✭
    I agree re the clothes as I get too hot very easily – I ran in shorts all winter  even in the very middle of the cold snap with deep snow and ice. I remember running past a group of people and someone shouted ‘hardcore’ at me. Don’t think it was intended as a compliment but it took it as one anyway!
  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭
    Hahahaha I live for those days Viper(plus it makes up for 'mind out the way of the jogger' days) image
  • RatzerRatzer ✭✭✭

    I put a coat on to jog over the Severn Bridge this morning.  Didn't need it!  And it was even foggy on top which usually drops the temperature a few degrees.  Had to take it off and carry it awkwardly (don't you just love that word? "wkw".  Where else would you find that?).  I also noticed that both last night and this morning I was sweating within moments, regardless of the slow pace.

    Well done, Dr Dan, on the improvement.  It works, doesn't it?

    Duck, I definitely noticed the slow down this morning, so turned the run into a 3:1 and forgot about the HR.

  • MoraghanMoraghan ✭✭✭

    Training does make fools of us at times.  Last night I did a long progressive warm-up averaging 6:40 p / mile followed by 5 * 300m in 43.5 secs w / 3:00 recovery followed by 4 * 40m fly-ins.

    Today I averaged 7.57 p / m as part of a 12 miler.  I ended up canning it at 8m because my legs could no longer carry me at faster than 8:00 p / mile.

    Ratzer wrote (see)

    Moraghan, do you not count pace progressions as endurance runs, or are you running them relatively short?  I think on balance that I would ditch endurance (depending on the stage of training) on a sort of Last-in-First-out basis.  General aerobic conditioning is harder to lose than the shorter term, quality stuff.  I presume that longer than a few days at a time and you would be starting to look at going back to the basic endurance stuff?

    I have a holiday, two weeks in (intense) heat, weeks 7 and 6 before a marathon.  My difficulty will be any long runs during those weeks, but I will have a swimming pool.  I should be doing some pretty hard running during that period, which I should be able to keep up due to the shorter time - I can fit it in at 5 in the morning before it warms up too much.  Should I be too worried about losing the long runs?  Can I maintain endurance through swimming?  (Some sources say yes, but I can't see how it will benefit the running except in slowing down the loss of conditioning.)

    By pace progressions I mean (1500m pace sessions as an example) 6 * 400m, next workout 4 * 600, then  3 * 800m.  I didn't mean progressive runs which, as you say, would be endurance runs.  It's the middle fitness which has dropped just a little too much - LT and vo2 max zone.  I should be able to bump that back up in the next 4 weeks.

    In your situation I can't see swimming making up for the long runs.  But whether it will affect your marathon depends on how many 20+ milers you'll get in overall before the race.  Perhaps you could do 2 or 3 medium long runs a week if you get up early whilst on holiday.

  • None of my pbs were set between May and September.  Just too warm or humid.  You may drop lucky and get a cool, windless day in summer but chances are slimmer than during the rest of the year.

     Anyone else with a longish history or racing replicate this (except Moraghan on the track where you would obviously expect summer pbs)?  As a new runner pbs are usually in a recent race.  The more years you go through the cycle the more you notice the pattern.

    So maybe I should say all my pbs from 5k and upwards...

  • 1500m May 1st

    5K: Sept 10th

    10K: July 3rd

    10 Mile: November 21st

    1/2 Marathon: November 28th

    Marathon: June 20th

    I'd say that that is pretty much true, BR. The PBs June (marathon) and July (10K) were certainly cool, if not chilly, days so they will fall into the 'dropping lucky' category.

    Moraghan - It looks like we're all struggling today. Normal service will be resumed after we've had a thunderstorm or two!

  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭
    I've got the joys of a 5 mile tempo tonight...hopefully it will break before then but I doubt it...will be slow image
  • Mr VMr V ✭✭✭
    I noticed anecdotally last summer that on hot days my 10k times were roughly 2 minutes behind what I could have expected in good conditions. I’m only basing this on 3 or 4 hot races mind. I’m not expecting to hit any PBs now until after summer unless I drop lucky with conditions. Having said that the longer the distance the more the effect so I reckon a 5k PB is probably most likely – plus it’s in need of revision anyway!
  • /members/images/242368/Gallery/drift.jpg

    Here we are. I draw your attention to the section just after 35 mins. Sorry about the small image size.

  • Wow!

    I thought I was being deliberately slower today but maybe I couldn't have gone faster if I wanted to anyway.

    I noticed a huge pattern last year in my summer 10k's, I think I did 5 of them and there was something like 5 seconds between them all, in the region of 47.30 (when I was going for the sub 45). I definitely race better Oct - March, yet it obviously went from one extreme to the other this year and half of them were cancelled with the snow.

  • I'm definitely the odd one out. I'm a cold person by nature and it has to be extremely hot for me to really feel the effects. I always place much better in warm conditions. Now if we put wind into the equation thats a different matter. I absolutely hate it and find it really saps my energyimage
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