The Middle Ground



  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭

    Speaking of track session s- achilles aches and I need to move out a couple of lanes of just wait for my achilles to get used to it? Its not a niggle - just a stiffness but its a bit annoying when I'm sat at my desk in work for some reason...

    (I was a heelstriker and my form is still in development so it could well be poor running style)

  • How about alternating reps between clockwise and anti-clockwise?

    Perhaps not, eh, if you want to go back there again! image

    I'd say just monitor it, it should strengthen over time. If it persists, instead of missing track sessions altogether you could fartlek the reps, pushing hard on the straights and coasting the bends to lessen the stress?

  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭

    Yeah its usually pretty busy when I went away last week but is back again today - seems to be worse from the tempos than the interval sessions...

    I like the fartlek idea if it gets worse!  

  • HillyHilly ✭✭✭

    Curly - yup I'm not on low mileage, just lower than it was, but with more specific quality work.  I'm happy for it to be this way for a while as I have no plans to do another marathon this year.  A difficult decision that even now I find myself fighting as I have this urge to do so, but just know it's not the answer this year with the illnesses I suffered at the beginning of the year.  On my run this evening, only a short run, but my legs felt strong and I've not had that feeling all year!!

    BTW - on the track I warm up and cool down anti-clockwise to make sure I'm not putting pressure on one side.

  • Hilly, are you sure thats the right way round? Or is it me getting confused with my clockwises and anti-clockwises? image

    So what are you targetting for the rest of the year and what would you say is the main difference that you're getting from the new coach?

  • PRF - we'll be investigating a**e and elbow laterimage

    Interesting point you made about snail mail post with Frank Horwill (who is worth a few threads on his own)!

    When things go right or wrong in a race I can come onto here (usually sub 3) and compare and contrast notes with runners of a similar ability and mentality.  I guess you did not have such a wide range of information to draw from in ye olden days;-)

    Curly - I was online coached by Mr Hadd for a couple of years.  There was a lot more to his training than slow running.  He was very much into working on a runner's weaknesses and tailoring the programme week by week in the light of feedback, rather than setting a 16 week schedule.  He was the one of the best IMHO in understanding the ordinary person and was very strong on the psychological aspects as well as the physiological (that took a few retypes after a few Cobras)!

  • HillyHilly ✭✭✭

    PFR - doh!  What am I like.  Yup you're right I got a bit confusedimage

    I'm targetting 5ks and 10ks and a few track races during the summer, then going to focus on 10 miles in autumn before picking up base mileage again later in the year for London next year.  The coach is setting more specific sessions for what I'm trying to achieve which I've never done before.  This means that the training is freshened up and prevents me becoming stale.

    It's remotivating me and meaning that I'm going out to run when in the last few months I would have asked `what's the point of doing this run tonight'? 

  • I can't say that I'm devising my own schedules by experience - I've only been taking my running seriously for about 15 months. I found P&D's "Road Racing for Serious Runners" to be good in that it shows you what aspects of running take priority for different events - I've based my periodization around these principles.

    JD's running formula is another book I have. I agree with Moraghan - it's not the best book ever but provides some interesting insight into various aspects of running - I foun the VO2 max stuff to be fascinating. 

    You may be wondering why I'm up at such an ungodly hour - I just did the St Andrews May Dip - Google itimage 

  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭

    Well I'm up too - getting ready to pop off to a parkrun image

    Hilly that sounds really positive regarding your coach and the training moving forward - I think sometimes its easy to stay in the same routine of what worked last time but the body is too clever  and adapts to it so gains made on old training become minimal.

    BR - sorry I dont know very much about Hadds training - it seemed that the base plan (on t'internet) was easy running but at different HRs which kind of comes back to what we were talking about a few pages back with the difference between 75% and 85% in terms of adaptation to fat burning etc!

    I'm still never sure which way round I'm supposed to go on the track - I just follow other people. I'm also not sure where to start - I think I am using the 100m finish line but the bell is there too...can you tell I'm a track novice imageimage

  • parkrunfanparkrunfan ✭✭✭

    TD - Thats just not right. image

    Warm bed or cold North Sea and you chose the latter? Frozen testicles is all I've got to say to that one..... image

     Hilly - Maybe a pair of spikes with 'L' and 'R' on the toes may help? image It will be interesting to see the results then after a few more months as it sounds like you may have just stepped over the overtraining line a wee bit, which is inevitable from time to time. I'm doing the same, in terms of concentrating on 5K for the next 11 weeks with the aim of clocking a 16:xx, so as to take more speed into the next marathon build up. Its worked before so we will see....

    BR - It was 1993 not 1903! image But you're right - even in just 10 years it was a whole new ball game once the internet allowed sharing of ideas. Even though I trained now and again with a couple of 2:12 ish guys (who can say that now?) they kept their cards close to their chest in terms of their exact training.

    You're right about Mr Horwill's input being invaluable - one thing about his approach, which is very much echoed by Charlie Spedding, is that you should train for a marathon just like any other race, ie to race it! None of this 'just getting round stuff'. In a way I'm really jealous of whats available now because the learning curve has been vastly shortened and that is part of the puzzle of why there arent more faster marathoners around.

  • parkrunfan wrote (see)

    TD - Thats just not right. image

    Warm bed or cold North Sea and you chose the latter? Frozen testicles is all I've got to say to that one..... image

    Meh. It's a tradition that I couldn't be arsed doing last year when I was a fresher. Let's just say the last time I slept was yesterday morning. It's a student's life.
  • HillyHilly ✭✭✭

    P&D's "Road Racing for Serious Runners"  we have this book found it very useful.  Lore of Running too, but there's places where it's a bit too scientific for me.  A book I loved for inpiration was Running with the Legends.  It made me want to get out and just run!

    Curly - I'm a track novice too really as only done a handful of races.  My first track race went well, but I remember one 3000m I was going for around 90secs a lap and I went through the first 400m in 78secs, the second lap in 80 secs and the I'm sure you can see where it went from thenimage 

    I do like the track though, but last year the first year of doing track races for my club I found myself lined up for a 100m race with girls!  The 800m wasn't much better either, although in the 800m I held my own thinking I was going to be last, but came 4th and very surprised I was too as it was the first time I'd ever done the distance since a child at school!

    PRF - I have socks with L & R on themimage

  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭

    Not even thought about track races tbh - I am so slow in comparison to the others who are short distance training - suffice to say long distance seems to be more my game image

    Good parkrun this morning despite yesterdays session - the legs were in and out during the run but really felt strong at the end so thats an improvment on last week when the legs were really dead from the track sessions! 

    Ah Duck the student life eh!!! Get some sleep - its bad for running to stay up all night image

  •  Well done this morning Curly. 

    I'm going to sleep - I was considering running today but reckoned it'd do me more harm than good. I'm on a cutback week so it's hardly a big deal.

    Having said that, I am a bit of a mileage freak. I seem to think that if I don't hit my mileage target for the week I won't be able to improve enough to hit my race targets. 

    I think there was a post somewhere (maybe even in this thread) explaining why mileage isn't the pivitol factor to race outcomes. I basically just need someone to tell me to stop fretting about a cumulative figure on a Sunday evening.

    Edit: I spelt Sunday wrong. 

  • parkrunfanparkrunfan ✭✭✭
    Hilly wrote (see)

    PRF - I have socks with L & R on themimage

    Thats all well and good - but do you know which goes on which foot? image
  • I have read soooooo many books but would say my two favourites are More Fire by Toby Tanser and Training for Endurance by Phil Maffetone. I love the fact that the Africans don't train by HRMs or any other gadgets. More Fire really has inspired me to keep training by body feedback.

    Parkrun for me too this morning. First lady, purely by the fact we don't seem to get the fast ladies, but more importantly felt fab, legs feeling good and strong, really looking forward to next week. Just want to do it!!

    The Duckinator sleep sounds a good ideaimage

    Glad you had a good parkrun too Curly45. Agree they are a fab event.

    Can anyone tell me if no DOMS is a good or bad thing. Over the last couple of months it seems whatever I do I don't seem to get any muscle soreness. Does this mean I'm not working hard enough? Even after what felt like a hard hilly fartlek, nothing.

  • Thanks for all the book suggestions guys, will have a browse on the internet for them and maybe get myself a couple.


  • I'm still awake image

    Are there any books for the more technical side of running? Such as the discussion yesterday about fat/carb burning ratios, exactly what happens during lactic acid build up, the benefits of two runs per day, etc etc. My reasoning is that if I know exactly what's going on, for what reason, I'll be able to devise more efficient schedules. I also need a good book to digest over the summer image

  • Duckinator - Do you have The Lore of Running by Tim Noakes. Very heavy going, that will surely keep you going over summer - and beyond. My brain isn't large enough to digest some of the science stuff in there but you couldn't accuse it of not containing enough depthimage
  • I do have it at home - though it's long-winded at points. I've been looking at other books on amazon and some of them are quite expensive image
  • HillyHilly ✭✭✭

    Well done guys on the parkruns.  Which one did you do Curly and Zion?

    I'm not sure if DOMS are good.  Although I only get DOMS if doing something my muscles are not used to.  If I race a longer distance or an off road race then sometimes I'll get them.  I don't seem to get them over 5k or 10k, so wonder if that's as Zion says down to not working hard enough. 

    I've not read those books, Zion, will look them up.

    I had a good run today, worked really hard!

  • HillyHilly ✭✭✭
    PRF - they're shaped so all I have to do is lie them on the floor in front of my feet to determine which is whichimage
  • What session did you do Hilly? How are you finding having a coach?

    I have a book containing lots of different accounts of ultras, that is pretty inspiring too. Can't for the life of me remember what it is called though!

  • MoraghanMoraghan ✭✭✭

    No DOMS after racing all out just means that you've prepared your muscles adequately in my opinion.

    I wonder how my legs will be tomorrow after racing an 800m, 400m and 400m relay over the course of 2 and half hours this afternoon!

  • HillyHilly ✭✭✭

    Moraghan - hope you're going to report your results on Daily!  Sounds like a lot to do in 2.5 hours!

    Sue C - It's early days yet, but so far so good.  I have a new zest for running and look forward to each day at the moment.  The coach is articulate, analytical and I trust the sessions he has set.  If you're interested in following I've started a blog (not narcissistic) just a way for me to keep a log as I'm awful at keeping a paper one)

  • MoraghanMoraghan ✭✭✭
    Hilly - just filed my report over there!  1:57.7, 51.8 and a 51.3 relay split.
  • HillyHilly ✭✭✭
  • Hilly - I'll keep an eye on your blog. I was considering starting one myself actually.

  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭

    Geez thats fast!!! Congrats Moraghan!

    Hilly - I ran finsbury today in a not too shabby 23:01 - its a hilly course (though not quite Bradford as its only 2 laps not 3)...what I was most impressed with is after the hill on the 2nd lap I was able to take a place and nearly a second one by speeding up and really flowing for the last 400m or so. To have those sorts of legs after a speed session the day before is encouraging!

    Will take a look at your blog a bit later. 

    Duck - check out your library first - you can order books on loan for 8 weeks image

    Sue - are you still resting post marathon? Whats the plan moving forward for the next few months?

  • In my experience DOMS comes when you're either

    a. undertrained  or

    b. well trained and well tapered to the point where you can thrash a race.

    I have no DOMS from my 5 mile race the other night as I felt a little heavy legged before the start and although acquitting myself reasonably well (5:30 pace) this was not the top end of what I am capable of when 100% fresh or fit.

    Hilly also has a tendency not to cool down properly or hydrate well after a race, and I think this increases the occurence of DOMS.

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