The Middle Ground



  • Duck how's the head today? image

    Another very good run prf  imageI have seen lots of photos of you smiling recently so you're obviously enjoying yourself amidst the pain too!

    YD where are you? prf is throwing smackdowns at me image

  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭

    Does this work PRF:

    Nice racing by you metronomeimage

    Forever well done on a brilliant reluctant performance!

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Nice racing forever and prf! image

    I think I'll definitely swim today ... especially as I might do a spontaneous sprint triathlon in 10 days timeimage. I t appears that there is an adult sprint dstance race taking place straight after the junior tri in Todmorden on 1st July ... seems silly to be there and not take part. Better get my bike back from its service before I actually enter.

  • PhilPubPhilPub ✭✭✭

    Curly - wotcha!  I'll have a read of that article when I can be bothered switching my brain on for more than 3 minutes in a row.  From the pretty picture I think they're telling us that there are people with massive genetic potential who work hard and hold current world records, other people who work really bloody hard who are merely quite good, and other people who have the genetic potential to be world record holders but will never know cos they're currently watching Jeremy Kyle and scoffing a bag of Doritos. I'm sure it's a little more technical though.  Hope to see you coming on here to report ailment-free training before too long.

    Simon - another great 800m performance from you.  Good work fella.

    Excellent mid-week racing from forever and prf.  (I'm only a little bit jealous!)

    The antibiotics most definitely kicked in a few days ago and I haven't been bringing anything up off my chest for the past three days or so, but being cautious neither have I been for a run.  Feel a little drowsy at times, and not sure whether this is purely the antibiotics (which I finish tomorrow) or still a viral problem lingering, with the bacterial infection having cleared up.  If I feel 100% this evening I'm gonna try an easy run, which will be my first run with a new HRM (mega GPS upgrade to a Garmin 610.  Yay!) so I should be able to get an objective measure of what's going on.

    Very much 50/50 for the Richmond 10k on Sunday then.

  • Curly - Yep, that works! But I still dont know what it was about image

    Are they saying that improvements are partly due to genetics and partly due to consistent training? If so, its groundbreaking stuff isnt it?image

    forever - Not one to back away from a challenge are you? image

    It looks like they've started the publicity for the YD/PRF smackdown.... image

  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭

    No chance re: ailment free Phil image My post-op infection has returned on the end of my last antiobiotic course. Awesome image

    Hope you feel 100% soon!

    I will run again consistently at some point but right now that just keeps slipping between my fingers like sand. A bit sad really!

  • prf/forever great runs form the both of you. forevr's pb glut sure to return soon I am sure! 

    And prf you hope to run a marathon? Kept that one quiet image 

    Curly, welcome back! Haven't had time to look at the link yet but I will do soon. 

    And thanks to everyone about yesterday, I'm now officially unemployed rather than a student. Forever, let's just say I'm postponing hill reps until this afternoon. 

    YoungPup wrote (see)
    Duck - hope you enjoy your graduation! I presume you will be posting the obligatory picture of you in a gown and mortarboardimage

    No mortarboard here I'm afraid but I did get to wear something quite poncey.

  • prf - nice work last night, things are certainly moving in the right direction. Are you planning a trip to Hull parkrun anytime soon? Oh and loving the publicity shot, quite fitting that they/you used a shot from Gateshead parkrun.

    Dr Dan -you seem to have the bit between your teeth at the moment, good to see.

    Nice progressive run the other night Duck, and I hope your hangover isn’t too bad today. Cant see the link at work, will check the piccie out later.

    Where in Devon are you Darola? I am heading down that way for my first visit to the area in a week. Looking forward to it.

    Very speedy mile Mr V. Have you considered having a serious bash at some shorter stuff? There are some good track clubs up your way…..

    Good to see you posting Curly, hope you can find some consistency soon. As for the link you posted, I think Phil summed up my understanding of it pretty well.

    Phil – you must have had a nasty bout of lurgy, I hope the viral thing doesn’t linger for too long. The drowsyness suggests it might still be about in the system, similar to how I have been feeling, but once the chest has cleared you should be ok to run easy.

    forever – a very nice return to racing indeed image
    As for smackdown talk, not from me just yet, well not until I get my mojo back. I am ok running easy but last night I tried to push the pace along a little towards the end of my run and could only manage 7/mi.
    The good news is that easy running is ok and I am starting to get some mileage going again, I have run 2 x 8 miles and a 4 mile cross country run this week with a med/long run planned with a buddy tonight. Hopefully I will be ok running some miles starting with a 6 at the Rainton 10k on Sunday. Either way a good hard effort should help get me back on track again. Will finish the week with something like 45 miles, my best mileage for some time.

  • Sorry to hear about your continued bout of bad luck Curly image  It is nice to see you on here though!

    YD hopefully once you get ticking over again your mojo will come back.

    prf I don't mind a fair challenge image 5ks are your strongest distance....5ks are my weakest....


  • Duck, interesting you suggest those sessions. What I have planned is almost exactly that:

    2 x (3 x 400m @ 800; 4' rec) 8' rec between sets (planning on doing this one tomorrow)
    2 x 1000m @ > 1500 wth 8' rec
    2 x 1500 @ 2.5kp
    And perhaps some 72-73 second 400 repeats to get used to gal 1500 pace, but that needn't be a killer session if I take enough recovery

    That progression run shows good fitness. Am I correct in thinking you would have really struggled with that pace earlier in the year?

    Congrats on your graduation, and enjoy spending my taxes on your hill runs you scrounger.
    Curly, your link looks interesting and I will have a proper read of it later on. Sorry to hear you are having trouble.
    forever, nice race. And what a nice change for you *not* to get a PB image I expect we'll see some in the near future now the bug's back though.
    Mr V, if you can manage that in training, then I would say that a sub-5 might be on the cards. Going through half way in 2:30 clearly didn't mess things up that badly. Just don't run faster than 4:58.7image

    PRF, a nice string of sub-6 miles there for a good 10k.

    Phil, glad you're feeling better. These things can linger for quite a while in my experience, so I'd be wary of pushing yourself too hard. I'm due a Garmin upgrade soon, so let me know how you get on with the new one.

    YD, good to see you getting some consistent running in, and I'm sure we'll see it pay off soon.

  • I had a good evening at the Crawley Open 1 Mile last night:
    I completed my warm up of 1.5 miles easy; drills; 0.5 miles @ threshold and a couple of strides and was all ready to run my race at 8pm. Unfortunately a writer of fantasy fiction had compiled the race schedule and we didn't actually start until 8.45. I have no idea how they got so far behind, but what can you do? I did my best to stay warm, but was a bit irritated and hungry by the time the race started.
    Anyway, five of us lined up to start. I was surprised since I had expected the rare distance of 1 mile to be a little more popular (the event was pretty busy in general). What was nice is that there was electronic timing and a nice big clock at the lap mark (although during the race some official kept getting in the way of it).
    The gun went off and I settled into 3rd place. After 100m the runner in second was already slowing a little so I moved into 2nd. The pace still felt a little slow - more like a training session, but knowing that the first lap always feels slow I stayed there until 309m, and then I saw the clock said 1:00. That's ~5:20 pace, so my pace judgement was right and it was too slow. I moved up into 1st place and covered the next 100m in 16 seconds (maybe a little too eager) to go through the first lap (409 metres) in 76 seconds.
    Now in the lead, I paced the next lap as I saw fit and this one was completed in 72. That's more like it.
    The third lap was difficult - not so much tiredness, but I had a fairly good lead now, and was pretty confident of winning, so it was difficult to start thinking about a PB and push myself, and it showed with a lap of 77 seconds.
    I dug in a bit for the last lap, but since there was no real race on and nobody to chase I couldn't quite get going as much as I would have liked, but I still managed 73/74 seconds and won the race in 4:58.81.
    Although I got the gold in the 800 at the Surrey Vet's Champs a few weeks back, I was actually beaten in that race by somebody in a different age group. So this is the first race where I've actually gone over the line first. It felt really good, and that's much better than a PB.
    In terms of potential based on tonight's performance (i.e bullshit calculations), I reckon that I could have managed 73/lap if there was a race on, so maybe 4:53 - 4:54. We'll find out on Monday when I am going to race a 1500 fresh and go for it.

  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭

    Awesome racing Simon! Must have been brilliant to win image

  • Great racing Simon, and congrats on the win image

    Nice racing as well from Forever and prf (againimage ), and some very impressive times in training from Mr V, Duck and Dr Dan.

    Duck - nice picture!

    Darola - great to hear you're enjoying your running. I agree with prf that enjoyment is what this running malarkey is meant to be about ( even if sometimes we can over-complicate it and forget this basic truth )

    YD - hope you're mojo turns up soon, and whilst it's gone at least you're racking up some decent mileage. I suspect your 10k on Sunday will do you a world of good and hopefully will set off another round of stonking smackdowns with prf and others....

    PhilPub - hope you get out for an easy run tonight, and enjoy playing with the 610. Also, if you just fancy a nice easy run on Sunday, why not come and pace me to a 39:59 at Richmondimage. You could even wear your Union Jack Brooks Green Silence as they would make my bright yellow T7s look pale in comparison......

    As for me, thanks for all the comments about not bothering to taper. I've done another couple of decent runs since my silly mileage day on Monday, including 10miles today, with 7.5 @ 07:50/mile. The plan is to do 4-5 easy miles tomorrow, rest Saturday, and then see what Sunday brings.
  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭

    Hope you enjoy the club 10k YP - by all accounts its a good un! I will be in Hertfordshire having a picnic while some crazy people do an off road marathon, otherwise I would be marshalling. You'll have to report on how good the course is so I can add it to my calendar for next year!

  • Thanks Curly - I hadn't realised you were based around Richmond. I'm looking forward to the run, and the course looks good, so hopefully it will be a nice run.
  • PhilPubPhilPub ✭✭✭
    Curly45 wrote (see)

    You'll have to report on how good the course is so I can add it to my calendar for next year!

    Looking at the course map, the final mile or so is great.  The last time I ran along that road, you got your own lead bike marshal trundling alongside to tell you how far behind the next guy was.


    Simon - more racing!  A win!  Hurrah!

  • Simon you're having a very good period of running indeed. Congrats on a win!

    YP hope your 10k goes to plan.

    Well, I did say I wasn't sure I would do VLM again without a champs start but I couldn't see a good alternative for me. I like doing a Spring marathon so GFA has been acquired.

  • Excellent run SImon, well done on the win! Plenty time to come off of that if it was a slower start than you wanted.

    2*3*400 sounds pretty tough - the last interval would be quite close to your second lap pace I'd imagine. 

    Hope you get back on your feet soon Curly. 

    YD mojo comes and goes, as long as you can keep something going while in a bit of a trough I'm sure it'll come out ok. I bet once you get on the startline you'll be motivated enough!

    Did my hills session - I'm getting my warmup routine together for my power/sprint sessions next year so gave the first plan a go today. 1M, then stretches/drills, then relaxed strides. Then did 6*8 sec maximal hills w/3 min rec. Wanted to do a few maximal downhill sprints afterwards but got a bad stitch for no apparent reason, still with a decent session already bagged I called it a day. Mileage for the day a dizzying 2.3M!

  • DarolaDarola ✭✭✭

    YD - I was only there for the weekend, in Paignton eating and drinking too much (although a couple of morning runs along the undulating sea front did offset the calories a little image).

    Curly - intersting link, I'm with Phil - some can, some can't and some can't be bothered! Hope you get back in to running soon, as there is nothing worse than being bothered but can't!

    Simon - well won image, and it does sound like you should be able to go faster.

    YP - good luck with the crack at sub 40. A milestone I strongly aspire to.

    forever - a promising return, glad you enjoyed it and have renewed your racing appetite. image

    prf - consistent as ever, and those 5.xx miles look very nice! I'm still waiting for my first as a vet! image

    Did a steady off road 6 last night with my old club, and some of the old guard were still on duty to enjoy it with - a fantastic trip down memory lane and some good banter in the clubhouse afterwards! My membership form is very close to being completed for a return to club colours.

    Took the dog out for an easy 3 this morning and now have my feetup and the footie on! I'm hoping that the weather holds tomorrow as I have a 10k MT in the evening (the Blakedown Bolt) to get my 20% pain quota in for the week! image

  • PhilPubPhilPub ✭✭✭

    Steady on Duck.  image

    Hmmm... a comfortable but inconclusive run this evening. 7.1M, 7:12 pace, HR 144/72% max, which sounds OK but it's a little over the magical 1,000 beats per mile which I'm usually under these days if all is well.  Legs felt really strong, which is to be expected after two weeks' rest I suppose, and most satisfying was the breathing being really easy, and definitely no gunk.  Think I still need more convincing on the all-clear.

    While I'm at it, some initial thoughts on the Garmin 610. All good so far and although I've not done much with it, some things I've noticed that are an improvement over the 305...
    - comfort: both the unit and the new HR strap, which sits a lot better against the chest. It's supposed to be better at avoiding HR spikes, which will be useful. The watch itself is a lot more comfy on my bony wrist.
    - More sophisticated LCD display. It's a lot smaller but very clear, so no problem having four elements on display, and this includes having time in hrs:mins: secs unlike the 305, obviously useful for longer races.
    - Vibrate alert. I think I'll find this particularly useful for alerting splits in races and tempo runs, etc. I know the 305 will beep at you but I bloody hate beeping and don't like to subject other people to it in races.
    - More detailed info on splits. You can get up more info on individual laps, including average HR and max HR, which AFAIK you can't with the 305. I can see this being useful for analysing HR during interval training.  Maybe.
    - Power save mode. The GPS function disables until you need it, so you can wear it as a watch... not that I'd do this every day, but it's practical for race day; rather than having to set ''Time of day'' as one of the items for display you can just wear it as a watch and then power up GPS when necessary.
    - Cleverer GPS.  Not had a chance to test this yet but it remembers the satellites where you live, and tracks them down much more quickly on repeat sessions.

    I think that's it for now. Not sure if it's really worth the extra price, but then it was a present.  image

  • Absolutely a win is better than a PB, belting race Simon image 
    YP – sounds like a good week and it should pay off with a good run on Sunday.

    Ha ha forever, one good race and you are hungry for more. Good to see image

    Careful Duck, don’t want to burn out with all those miles

    Sounds ace Darola, looking forward to a few seaside runs when I am down that way. Enjoy your 20% tomorrow.

    Sounds alright to me Phil. Ok not top form for you but it won’t take long to come back.
    As for the garmin it sounds great. I have the 405 and am pretty happy with it, but yours sounds a bit more fancy than mine.

    prf/BR/Hilly – not sure if you’ll be about but I will be running Barnsley parkrun a week on Saturday (30th) as part of my ticking off Yorkshire parkruns plan. We are heading south and Mrs YD suggested we stop for a parkrun on the way, Barnsley seemed to fit as is not too far from the M1.

    12.12m for me tonight with a pal, we ran it at a decent clip with a 7:28/mi average although conversational the whole way round. Legs started to groan towards the end, but the run felt ok suggesting things are coming back to normal though not 100% yet.


  • Duck (BSc) - 2.3 miles with some intense stuff thrown in sounds like plenty after a long day on the pop. image

    YD - Good spot on the Gateshead link. That could be any park anywhere in the country, it is a tarmac path with some grass and a few bushes in the background, and yet you knew it was Gateshead. It is almost trainspotterish...... image

    forever - I see that you've been learning from YD on how to sandbag before a smackdown! image

    Simon - Excellent racing. It must be a nice combination where you can win a race, chalk up a sub 5 minute mile and still feel as though there was something to spare in the tank. These vets are a bit quick these days.....

    YP - Hope you have a good one on Sunday.

    forever - I can see why you would be reluctant to do VLM without getting the free run a Champs place would give you but maybe this time you'll experience the real highlight of the day and get yourself to the Red Lion! image

    Darola - Get that form signed!

    Phil - Nice to hear about a (potential) return to full health and congratulations on your new role as Garmin Marketing Executive. image


    Well I was jealous of Simon so I went and bagged myself a race win this evening (well sort of.....).

    It was the test run for Dewsbury parkrun prior to the first event on Saturday.

    It is a 4 lap course with 4 long uphill drags so my first thoughts were that it would be one of the slowest courses around. But bearing in mind that I was having plenty banter with the marshalls since most were completely new to anything parkrun related and seemed a bit nervous and that it was a solo run (ie 2 minutes clear by the end) a time of 18:38 with splits of 6:02, 5:51, 5:50 suggest it isnt that slow.

    It measured 5.07km and I certainly didnt run a tight racing line so they seem to have got it just about spot on.

    Should be a good event on Saturday.

    x-post: It is Chester-Le-Street for me on the 30th YD but you'll enjoy Barnsley and I'm impressed by Mrs YDs parkrun tourism mentality, ie never miss a chance! image

  • Nice racing and winning Simon!

    Congratulations Duck on the unemployment statusimage  Not for long I'm sure!

    forever - well done on yet another race.  Can't always pb, but to run strong is good! 

    As for VLM, it used to be that the female Championship (when we all went off with the elite women before the mass start) was a good start and yes a free run without being bumped about.  Now that free run is not possible as we start with the men and then the faster end of all starts merge with us at 3 miles and it's no different to being on any other start.  I said I'd not do it again after my last VLM Champ start, but I find myself after a year of missing it quite fancying it again next year.  Sharpen those elbows I guessimage

    Nice run there PRF!  I look forward to giving the course a go on Saturday if my body decides to let my play!

    Good you're feeling better PP.

    I've had 2 horrid weeks with a contant 'foggy' headache and fatigue like I've never had before.  Had blood tests, but nothing showed.  Symptoms gradually improving but each day is a struggle and some days I can run and others I can't!  As I've not had the headache bad for 24 hours I'm hoping this is a sign of things getting back to normal.  Worst month of training I can remember for a long, long time!

    Happy training, racing and having funimage


  • Sending get well vibes to Hilly and Curlyimage

    Nice racing Simon. Well done on the win.

    Good racing at Warrington PRF. I should learn to check the race list. I could easily have made it up to watch / run.

    A gentle 10 last night. I was going to get out this morning but was marking until late and my parents turned up (not unexpected but way psat my normal bedtime) so I wrote off this morning's run in favour of some sleep!

  • Trainspotterish prf!! Suppose you are right, the pavilion in the background gave it away.
    Nice session there, also gives you a nice target to beat on Saturday. I went for a run with SM last night and convinced him that a trip to Hull is required if he wants to improve his 5k PB. We should coordinate the trip and make it a 3 way smackdown image

    Hilly – I hope this virus ‘foggy’ head thing passes soon, you deserve a break!

    Stiff legs this morning, feeling better about my running after last nights run though. Looking forward to giving my 10k a good bash on Sunday. Its amazing how a couple of decent easy runs can make you feel better about your running.

  • Hilly you seem to have had a serious run of bad luck image I think Darola summed it up when he said there's nothing worse than wanting to run and not being able to. Take care.

    YD a good run can certainly change everything........and smackdown talk already image

    Darola hope your MT event isn't too water logged and enjoy your pain quota.

    PP very informative and useful reviewimage


  • YP, I never like having a complete rest day the day before a race. Even if it's just an easy 1 mile I like to do something otherwise I find running feels a little alien on race day.

    Duck, I have done the same session, but with 300s. I am hoping to maintain 65 sec/lap. Your session sounds like fun. I should get one of those in soon - I haven't done a specific top speed session for a while.

    Good luck in the Bolt, Darola.

    Phil, thanks for the review. You can set lap HR on the 305, but there is a bug that means it just shows average HR. I would find that useful for threshold runs which I often do by HR.

    Nice conversational pace, YD.

    Good test run, PRF. I don't know if I'd like four laps on a parkrun though. It all sounds a bit repetitive.

    Hilly, how frustrating. I hope the last 24 hours is a sign you're on the mend.

    I did 6 miles around Epsom Downs with a local club last night. It was nice and muddy and wet and made a change from the track.

    Right, I see I have clawed my way a further 0.17% up the WAVA table

    Calculator here:

    85.56% Hilly (10K, 39:13, March)
    85.32%Treadmill (5M, 29:47, March)
    83.98% PhilPub (HM, 1:12:48, May)
    83.78% BR (10K, 34:10, March)
    81.40% PRF (5K, 17:25, March)

    78.78% Duck (60m, 8.2, March)
    78.46% forever (HM 1.31.49 March)
    76.47% Simon E (800m, 2:12.6, June)
    74.50% YD (5K, 17:31, April)
    73.94% Minni (10K 42.57 April)
    72.68% Mr V (5K 17.45 June)
    72.15% Ratzer (HM, 1:25:30, March)
    71.95% Dash (10K, 39:47, April)
    70.10% YoungPup (5K, 19:29, June)

    68.63% Dr.Dan (5K, 20:40, June)
    67.40% Darola (5K, 21:12, June)
    64.94% CB (5K, 20:25, April)

  • Mr VMr V ✭✭✭

    PRF - You might want to double check the dates for Chester le Street. I think they've changed. Though it might now be me that's out of date!


  • PhilPubPhilPub ✭✭✭

    Hilly - That sounds like how I felt most of this week. It's a bugger, innit!

    Just a quick note on the Garmin - one thing I think they should just not bother with is the calorie estimate.  Can't remember the exact figure but my 7 mile run was worth 400-odd calories apparently.  Er, right...

    I think I've made the decision not to bother racing on Sunday.  Whether it's the antibiotics or not, I still struggled to get out of bed this morning.  Fully functioning but merely 97% of the way there I think.  Besides, the weather will be utter pants, and we've got the next 5,000m race the following Saturday so I'd rather pin my hopes on a full recovery by then, rather than take a step back.  Good luck YP!

  • RatzerRatzer ✭✭✭

    Back again, after a bit of a break.  It's weird but I'm either posting five times a day or not posting for five days.  Nice racing and runs back in that recent past.  Special mention to Simon, because of course he is special - Special Simon.  That WAVA battle between Simon and Duck could get close soon!  So could the real one!

    Ah, yes, Duck, the going fast thing.  Completely agree!  I just can't get used to running easy again, my legs want to go fast.  No idea if it's just psychological.  However, it's a problem.  For someone like me who's just come into the quicker training and finding it hard to go slow in the other runs, well, it's bound to lead to a niggle, isn't it?  And it has - achilles has been warning me to keep quiet for a week now, so I'm taking its advice.  Left achilles, like DrD.  This weekend I will have to skip the trip up to Yorkshire (planning went to pot when I thought I was going to be going to Brazil next week anyway).  Next week I should be able to start over, but with much more restraint in the slow stuff.

    Up till this rest, short stuff has been going great.  Nope, Duck, no idea of any times, but I'll take a watch along next Tuesday.  I can tell you that I'm slower than a 47 year old and slower than a teenaged girl.  But I'm not the slowest.  Yay!

    Darola, still watching your science stuff.  Completely agree that this is generic for now, and your future training is highly dependent upon how you react to the simple stuff.  Can't wait to see the outcome.

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