The Middle Ground

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  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭

    Evening!

    Not been on here for a while!

    Well done Forever! Great to have a course record (I think my last one was 40 years ago!!).

    Just picking up on a couple of things that CB mentioned:
    1. Well done on the 5k PB...interesting that you found it a tougher course than Dunham: the time says otherwise! People at my club still call Dunham as the slowest of the series.
    2. Tiredness! I don't thinking people who are not in education appreciate how exhausting it is and by the end of the year the body seems pretty low in terms of resistance etc. Take running easy until the end of term, and probably the first week of the hols (same message to Hilly/BR!). I always seemed to be ill at the start of the holidays: I seemed to just be able to hold things together until the pressure was off and then the body fell to bits!

    First Sale Sizzler 5k is on Thursday for those interested:
    http://www.saleharriersmanchester.com/club-races-events/sale-sizzlers-2012.aspx
    The final one should be particularly special.

    Edit: Sale 10 is definitely off due to work on the Metrolink extension.

     

    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • Pammie*Pammie* ✭✭✭

    Hilly Thanks guess i needed some time away to think and stuff seems you had a good training run today

    Hope you've shown the virus the door

  • Tom.Tom. ✭✭✭
    Hilly; good to see you getting back to it......how's the old fella going at the moment?
  • Pammie always nice to see you popping in. I honestly believe running has to be enjoyed first and foremost. Sometimes we can just get lost in times and targets and forget the real pleasure running can give. Glad you have your focus back.

    How's your running going Tom? Weren't you contemplating Dereham 5k? I think the Norfolk town is going to be swamped in orange vests in a few weeks time image

    YP there are so many different views on MP in training and I think a lot of it depends on what other training you are doing. To be honest I'm an effort person so all my running is effort based. Some days paces come out much faster or much slower than expected but as long as the effort feels right I don't worry too much about the times.

    Could it be that you were tired on your run today? I have a vague recollection of you doing a mammoth session this week?

    Mr V lol all on different days and all good events. I think I'll pick the day with the best weather forecast!

  • RatzerRatzer ✭✭✭

    prf, YD, nice 1,2 in the smackdown there!  Wardi, nice little run there.  Duck, plyo is fun, and rewarding, but like anything like that it's also tough!  Hilly, nice to just be giving it a go.  forever, course record!  Well done!  Pammie, welcome back again!

    YP, MP is usually a conversion pace, something like HMP +15s, and also treated in the lab as a pace where blood lactate stays around 2 MMol.  The speed at which you will actually run the marathon race, moreso if it's your first, is slower than this.  Hardly anyone can run a marathon at their calculated MP, except a few brave elites.  This is more to do with the race distance being longer than your physiology will allow you to run without either fuel, or by slowing down to a pace that allows you to finish within your fuel limits - again except in highly trained and experienced elites who might just about make it.

    A little more worrying though is that you're doing 18M with 12 at MP, and you're doing an autumn marathon...  How many more months are you going to treat your body like this?  And in this heat and humidity?

  • YoungPupYoungPup ✭✭✭
    Ratzer - thanks. My autumn marathon is 2nd September, so more like a late summer one!



    I'm glad I posted my original comment and query, as the universal view seems to be that I'm trying to run my MP runs too quickly, and I need to re-adjust my target pace. This is a relief, as the last two runs have proved that I can't maintain my current MP.... Thanks folks image
  • PhilPubPhilPub ✭✭✭

    forever - A course record, very impressive.  image

    Hilly - Glad to hear the lurgy is clearing up, seems like you've given it the right approach.

    Nice parkrunning everyone.

    YP - 12M at MP is pretty hard work, I certainly wouldn't want to do this kind of long run every week, maybe every other week but with other MP stuff thrown in to shorter runs. I'm not sure whether it tells you much about a sensible target pace at this stage.  Do you have any HMs lined up prior to the marathon?

    I've finally managed to run a race as a V40.  First thing to note about yesterday's 5,000m is some record HR figures, which I suspect is partly a reflection of the virus lingering, although I felt OK. Hit a new max of 202 image and average for the whole race was 188, where I'd normally expect about low 180s. The race itself went pretty well considering.  It was a double match, so 18 runners including a couple of ''guests'', and it proved to be useful having a bit of company on a very windy back straight. First k - 3:16, settled in behind one guy with a small group going off ahead.  Next couple of k's were 3.21, 3.22, running a little conservative because of conditions and just not knowing how well I'd hold up.  Eventually pulled away from a couple of guys to brave the wind on my own, another 3.22, then gave it everything for the last few laps and found a little bit more pace for a final 3:14 and finishing time of 16:35, for 2nd in the B string. Club mate Stuart finished about 7 seconds ahead of me, his first victory in our small number of head-to-heads.  He reckons conditions were worth 20 seconds, which I think might be a little generous but I'm certainly back into PB shape or thereabouts for the shorter distances.  Still hoping for a crack at sub-16 this season if I can stay free from illness for a couple of months and if this poxy wind pisses off.  image

  • HillyHilly ✭✭✭

    Well done PP, what age grading is that?image

    Tom, he's doing as well as ever, just buried deep in exam marking at present!  Are you going to be a Dereham 5k?  We'll be there and staying over the evening in the town.

    Just when I think I'm over the worst of my virus I now have a heavy cold and sore throat - must be the virus coming out, so I'll see it as the poison leaving my body!!  A day off work though as no way will I be stood talking across a class all day with a razor sore throat.

    You're right alehouse about the strain of keeping bugs at bay when working in education -  when dealing with hundreds of other people's children coming in with this or that strain of cold, it's a wonder we aren't always ill!  Plus in my case I can be in many different classrooms in a day, where I'm using lots of different keyboards (never cleaned) and touching lots of different doors etc.  I think schools should have hand gels inside classrooms like hospitalsimage  I do carry my own though!

     

  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭

    Morning!

    Well done Phil! Lots more to come off that, too.

    Hilly: I wasn't thinking bugs! I was alluding to the general exhaustion that working in schools brings over the year. Bugs, though, are indeed another thing to contend with year round. I blame successive governments who have tried to drive up attendance so kids turn up quite ill at times for fear of missing a day, or losing out on the latest chance of a spot prize for turning up, etc. Interestingly now that I work in lots of different schools (over 20 this year so far), I have noticed that some buildings just feel sick compared to others!

    Still no running here, btw.

    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • RatzerRatzer ✭✭✭

    PP, you're the first person I've met whose MaxHR rises with age!  Stunning race, the equivalent of an open 15:40... image

    Hilly, I do feel for you.  As it's almost time for my annual six weeks of ear infection (well, a couple of months time) I guess it really is the season for the summer cold!  It must be worse with two teachers in the house bouncing germs back and forth.

    Alehouse, any idea when you'll be back on your toes?

    Neglected to post that I managed about 5 miles on Saturday, easy, about 6 miles yesterday mildly progressive.  Achilles having no problem at the moment so I think it was a niggle in reaction to the changed focus.  And also to track spikes!  If nothing else I think the sprint work will work on those natural springs at the backs of the legs, and hence no need to add plyos at the moment.

  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭

    Ratzer:  thanks for asking! Achilles has almost cleared up...but I now have a calf that can't cope with the more active Achilles! In one way its been an interesting experience (that I wouldn't wish on anyone else!): for example the physio has videoed the lower legs every three weeks. There is now much clearer muscular definition on the left than there was, but it is still not as clear as on the right, and the muscle on the outside is struggling to cope now that the Achilles is moving correctly. Off for ultra-sound and massage this p.m. Am allowed to run as soon as the calf permits...if you call it running as it will only be 100 metres slow x 10 max with 100 metres walk and stretches in between each rep. Slowly, slowly!  We'll get there!

    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • PhilPubPhilPub ✭✭✭

    alehouse - I admire your patience. Stronge calves ought to be a good thing when you can get back into the running habit. Makes you look better in short trousers as well. image

    Hilly - D'oh!  Poison leaving the body, indeed.  WAVA 82.31 for Saturday (and V40 ranking of 27 depending on what anyone else managed to do!)

    Ratzer - Max HR is "220 minus age" - must be true, I read it on the interweb.  This means I have the heart of an 18 year old.  image

  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭

    Phil:  my brain is in the running habit...one leg isn't though! It will be some time before it is strong enough to do a max HR test, but last autumn was seeing early 180s, so the formula is perhaps 240 minus age!

    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • It's been mental with external marking, meetings and my lovely year group kicking off, so I have't had much time to read/post.

    PP - brilliant 5000, and great max HRimage.

    Parkrunners - Very well run. Duck - that's a sensible philosophical view.

    Forever - Well done on the time, position and recordimage

    Hilly, Alehouse - It seems to be one thing after another. Hoping you're there or thereabouts as soon as possible.

    Thanks to everyone for comments, especially Alehouse for pointing out how ridiculously hard it seems to be at this time of year, and that I'm not alone! My fear (Simon) with taking a 2 week break is that I've found it very hard to get back into a routine again. I'm going to try to stick to what I would normally do, but take sessions off if I'm struggling, or drop a hard session to an easy one. YP - the 2012 target is still there, but I'd rather it was 1900 from a pragmatic approach, rather than 1600 because I wiped myself out completely for a few weeks.

    Having said that, I attempted a VO2 max session tis morning. The intention was 4 x 5 min at 15 min pace; 3 min rest. The reality was an average pace just slower than 5k pace, and a gradual slowing through the session. Not really a suprise, and I'm not reading too much into itimage

  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭

    Hi CB: if I were you I might be tempted not to "train" for a week or two, but to just do some "ticking over" sessions of steady running, maybe with a few strides thrown in if you are feeling good. When do you finish? Everywhere seems to be very different and where I am working at present  (Tues to Thurs usually, and just enough!) don't finish until 27th.

    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • alehouse wrote (see)

    Hi CB: if I were you I might be tempted not to "train" for a week or two, but to just do some "ticking over" sessions of steady running, maybe with a few strides thrown in if you are feeling good. When do you finish? Everywhere seems to be very different and where I am working at present  (Tues to Thurs usually, and just enough!) don't finish until 27th.

    The 11th - benefits of working in an independent schoolimage

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Sorry, been busy busy and have been trying to catch up!

    YP - 12M at MP is a tough session!image

    Hilly ... your luck will turn!image

    PhilP ... great 5000!image

    forever ... course record!!image

    Well, I abandoned my Sprint Tri yesterdayimage ... gutting as I was keen as mustard. Usually, children's Tri start with the youngest and go to the eldest, so I expected my son's age group to race shortly before the adults ... and then with my slow swimming, I'd be one of the earlier adults. However, turned out that he was racing in the 2nd wave at 8:30 and I was racing at 11:50 (finishing about 13:05), so I couldn't really let him loiter in the rain for 4 hours waiting for his dad to indulge.

    The early start to get junior to his tri also meant I missed my chance for a 14M LSR, leaving me with only a 20M week ... although 13 of those were at MP. I did manage 31M on the bike and 1M in the pool, so over all not too bad I suppose.

    June brought in a 147M total, including 7 MP sessions ... 28 hours training including the swimming/cycling. Meanwhile, I recorded a new lowest resting HR (43 bpm) and I've dropped 5lb since starting the food/exercise spreadsheet 19 days agoimage.

  • Oof! First time pylometrics = 2 days of DOMS. Only way is up from here image 

    YP, 12M @ MP's about as tough as it gets so it's not surprising you're finding it tough. MPftp (for training purposes) won't be MP for the race so you could always cut back on the pace a bit if you wanted. 

    If you allow me to dig out an MP pace calculator....

    5K pace+ 45 secs/mile

    10K+ 30 secs/mile

    10Miles + 22 secs/mile

    HM + 15 secs/mile

    (copyright prf, a long time ago)

    really enjoyed your interview prf, one (slightly strange) thing I do is imagine how people I've never met sound, so it served multiple purposes!

    Well done on the course record forever! And you played down sub-48 image 

    good run phil, sub-16 hopefully on a good day!

    Ratzer, I had some really sore achilles for the first few weeks using spikes. Great for strengthening though. 

    cb, as alehouse says how about a few weeks just ticking over? you can't be expected to go at it all year round with no breaks. 

    Shame about the tri, Dan.

    10M yesterday & 5M today. Some 3kp planned for tomorrow on the road. No idea how the session looks yet, like any good session I'm winging it on the day image

  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭

    Meant to say, YP, I would agree with most that 12 miles at MP is tough, and certainly solo. I also meant to say what do you know about your September marathon course...I hear that its pretty hilly, at least in the first half.  Don't be totally confined by the schedule! A number on here might suggest slow long runs over hilly country might be appropriate! And don't beat yourself up! You are going pretty well and should be proud of the fact! Think positive thoughts and banish all negativity (I heard Andrew Strauss say recently).

    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • DarolaDarola ✭✭✭

    PP: Pretty impressive for an old bloke. Sounds like there is a bit more to come when the virus is left far behind and the weather isn't even part of the commentary! Now I'm trying to get a bit more leg turnover in to my training I can really appreciate just how fast sub 05:20 pace is. Its one part of my running memory that has gone - running fast feels the same, but the clock shows it isn't! I think your ranking demonstrates just how good you currently are. 27th out of several thousand isn't to be sniffed at. image

    YP: Keep within yourself on the longer runs or you'll knacker yourself up. Your training is at a pretty good level and your shorter race times are coming down, so its all going in the right direction. I'd be targeting this marathon to get a feel for the distance and think about a spring marathon with some good winter miles under your belt.

    PRF: How much effort do you put in to your parkruns? Your times v your pb suggest most are tactical affairs??

    Hilly: I feel for you, glad your on the mend. Had a sore throat myself since last Tuesday. I just about trained through it but my pulse was definitley up and I bailed out of my Sunday 10miler early to clock 8. Bit stubborn to go out at all but based it on the above the neck rule. image

    CB: Hope your umph returns sooner rather than later - there's a sub 20 to be had! image

    Duck: So who sounds like what in your head??? image

    Finshed off last month with 125 miles a first time over 100 high! But left hoping I don't develop anythiing more sinister off the back of last weeks sore throat, especially as I'm targeting another parkrun this weekend, hopefully I can dip in to the 20.xx zone. This should give me some confidence going in to next weeks mid-week league 10k on the 11th. I've come off a few good weeks so I was due a blip, my bodies way I've telling me to stay grounded I guess........ and given the issues some have had of late I've gotten away lightly so count my chickens for that.

  • PhilPubPhilPub ✭✭✭

    Ducky - good mileage.

    Darola - good cake baking, as we might have it on sub-3.

    I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest that the lurgy has left.  First run for a while this evening under 1,000 beats per mile - 999 to be precise.  Ha!

     

  • parkrunfanparkrunfan ✭✭✭

    PP - Very impressive. A ranking of 27 already, if you can find that other 35 seconds you'll be a V40 elite.image

    forever - Show off. image (I'm just envious that you got an age coursed record when I didnt image). Have you worked out whether you're doing Dereham yet?

    Alehouse - How frustrating, but good to hear you sounding optimistic.

    YP - Nothing to add really, the others have said it but trying to hit abstract paces plucked from a 'training plan' must be the biggest cause of injuries around.

    Darola - That mileage is building nicely. You've got some nice milestones coming up, the first 20:xx and then the first sub 20.

    The parkruns are usually run pretty hard with the variation in times often being a reflection of the courses. For instance, the run on Saturday may well have been just about the best parkrun so far. We class Barnsley as Hull + 60 secs, so 18:27 at Barnsley and 17:25 at Hull are reasonably close efforts. YD ran 18:35 at Barnsley and 17:31 at Hull.

    Duck - What do you reckon, do you think I have grounds for suing after being ridiculed in front of an audience of '000s? My revenge will be served when least expected.... image

     

    10.0 Miles @ 8:17/mile this evening. A bit of training tomorrow and then its another period of 4 races in 5 days.

  • WardiWardi ✭✭✭

    PRF.. little victories & all that.. I got a nice message on Saturday saying I was the 1st V50 at the York Parkrun.  I felt duly humbled when I saw the full results and realised I had been thoroughly trounced by a V55 from Hull who clocked 17:48!  image

    Forever.. congrats on your course record.  Was the course profile anything like the 10k race I did last Tuesday?  http://connect.garmin.com/activity/193123034 - A nice 500-600 feet of ascent in the 1st 2 miles then a gradually steepening downhill which mashed my quads for a couple of days!  The mile splits are worth a chortle!

    Good luck with your recovery Alehouse, sounds very frustrating.

    Nice weight loss Dr Dan!

    Hilly.. you must be due a bit of good luck (and good health)!

     

  • Alehouse your patience and perseverance shows how much you love running. Really hope you get your reward of some consistent running soon.

    Dr Dan sounds like everything is heading in the right direction.

    Phil glad to hear the lurgy has left the building and top racing again!

    prf looking very likely I will be in Cambridge that weekend. Phew..........good dodge thereimage

    Wardi that looks a fun course image Humpty Dumpty is a funny one as besides the obvious climb at 3km the rest are very long and subtle but effective at slowing pace. It always produces slow times - between 1-3 mins slower than usual but really is a favourite on the racing calendar down here. Nice prize money too.

    The overall ladies course record holder is Helen Decker (Davies now) image

  • RatzerRatzer ✭✭✭

    News for anyone doing short but sustained near maximal sessions (Duck, Simon, Phil...) is that Bicarbonate of Soda is back from the Eighties wilderness as a sports supplement of choice for training and racing!  Burp your way to better times!  image!..image

    Neither here nor there as news for sufferers of upper respiratory tract infections, especially high mileage runners, is the outcome of analysis of several studies coming to the conclusion that you're more at risk of a URTI in the weeks after racing a marathon if you've suffered one in the weeks before.  image  One of the odd stats coming out of one of the included studies was that risk of URTI in runners increased with training miles up to 1388 per annum, but decreased after that.  Now does that mean that people who do higher miles don't suffer colds, or that people who don't suffer colds do higher miles???  image

    Track tonight.  Really looking forward to it again!

  • PhilPubPhilPub ✭✭✭

    Now I wonder what sort of lovely concoction you could make out of beetroot and bicarbonate of soda?  Mmmm!  1388 miles eh?  I should hit that around mid August (subject to avoiding URTIs or any other diseases which sound like a multi-utility vehicle).  Does that mean the more miles I can do after August, the less chance I've got of being ill by the end of the year?  Or maybe I'll get the mother of all colds on New Year's Day?  That would be a proper bummer, and no mistake.

    image

    Track for me as well this evening.  When there are additional brackets involved I think they expect you to go faster, so 2 x (3 x 800) could be quite lively.  We have got another 5k Assembly League race again on Thursday though (Battersea Park).  Hmmm...

  • RatzerRatzer ✭✭✭

    It means that mid-August you're going to get a sore throat.  Zero chance of catching a cold on New Year's Day as you won't have done any miles at all then!

    I think you could sell a lightly sparkling beetroot juice.  Beetfizz?  Sodroot?

    I never know what's on at the track until I get there.  No meets on this week though so looking forward to a fairly intense session!  There won't be any 800s involved.  In fact it's quite possible that the entire session could total less than 1 x 800.  Last Thursday, mind you, I did do a kilometre in total...

    Forgot to ask, PP, was your last 5k race on the road?

  • PhilPubPhilPub ✭✭✭
    Ratzer wrote (see)

    Forgot to ask, PP, was your last 5k race on the road?

     

    No, track.  Excluding parkruns and Assembly League races (some of them are measured 5k but I don't think any are actually certified) I've only ever run one certified road 5k in my life, back in Summer 2009 - 16:55 in the middle race of 3 in 4 days! This must've been shortly before Po10 relaxed their automatic submissions criteria down from 16:40.  I need to do something about that I think.

  • Duck, glad you are enjoying the plyos. What's an ankle hop?
           
     YP, I think 12 @ MP is really tough. But, like others I use MP as an intensity rather than the pace I would actually run a marathon at (MP would have me running around 2 hours 30). It is good that you are adjusting your goals early on.
           
    forever, 4 minutes is quite some improvement. Well done on the course record.
           
    pammy, nice to see you running and, more important, enjoying it.
           
    Nice race, Phil. I wouldn't be surprised if even a little wind could slow you by that much. I often notice it slowing me down for similar efforts in track training. Interesting that you got a new Max HR with a virus. I would have thought that the heart would refuse to work as hard and therefore not get as high.

    I feel sorry for you Hilly. I had a bout of illnesses about a year or so ago which I put down to travelling on public transport. Now I walk to work I don't get ill anywhere near as often as I used to.
       
    On the subjsct of hand gels and the like, I hate the recent ubiquity of anti-bacterial soap and gels. Aside from the concern over resistant strains, I have read a persuasive argument (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bad-Medicine-Doctors-Doing-Hippocrates/dp/0199212791) that using anti-bacterial soaps can actually cause you to be more likely to pick up infections: the reasoning is that they are indiscriminate in the type of bacteria they kill (i.e. they kill bad, good and neutral types) and therefore open up more real estate for the bad stuff to settle in.
           
    Also, I seem to be allergic to them.
       
    CB, I have always found that breaks make my hungry for running, but ticking over can work well at restoring freshness
           
    Good weight loss, Dr D. I am trying to lose the final few pounds to get to my estimated ideal race weight and it's really tough now.
       
    Darola, I parkrun most weeks and just use them for training runs.
           
    AB, great interview
    I imagine Duck sounds something like Rab C Nesbitt
           
    Ratzer, I read something about Bicarbonate of Soda a while back but reckoned it unlikely to help. Didn't RCB mention a competitor taking some before an 800 recently? I put it in my muffins, maybe that's enough. One thing I do want to experiment with at the end of season is creatine: maybe by doing a couple of 400m time trials before and after. I am also interested in how it mught help me increase strength over the winter.

    My 610 just arrived. It's so cool. All the kids at the track tonight will be like "Wow, you're so cool".

  • RatzerRatzer ✭✭✭
    PhilPub wrote (see)
    Ratzer wrote (see)

    Forgot to ask, PP, was your last 5k race on the road?

     

    No, track.  Excluding parkruns and Assembly League races (some of them are measured 5k but I don't think any are actually certified) I've only ever run one certified road 5k in my life, back in Summer 2009 - 16:55 in the middle race of 3 in 4 days! This must've been shortly before Po10 relaxed their automatic submissions criteria down from 16:40.  I need to do something about that I think.

    16:55 with a race the day before!  Lucky it wasn't a marathon...  But Hard-Hard does seem to work anecdotally.  [I was asking because of your WAVA, not that it makes any real difference to how close I am to you...image

    Simon, an 800 sounds like an ideal distance for using it.  I used to use creatine but that's for flat out, 1RM efforts really.  You're supplementing something that fuels you for about 4 seconds under normal conditions...  Gymbunnies swear by it.

    I need something to increase my cool with the kids at the track.  I've noticed that grey hair is cool, but only if you're faster than them.  Turning up with a kid their age is not cool, but ironically very cool for the kid - "Your dad sprints?  Wow, mine just does bodyweight lounges..."

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