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The Middle Ground
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You could eat less beans next time...
Seriously - those are the races that make you tough and make you want to nail it even more next time when conditions are good. Well done.
All very true. My last 5 races (inc. parkruns) have all been affected by the wind so I'm due a break!
Looking at yesterday's times roughly compared to pb's:
1st: 2s slower than pb
2nd: 1.8s slower than pb
3rd: 1.4s slower than pb
4th: 1.2s slower than pb
5th: pb
6th: 1.3s slower than pb
7th: 2.3s slower than pb
8th (me): 0.8s slower than pb
I think that shows how bad it was!
Just read back the last week and a half. Well done to some great racing, especially the drunken wrestling option taken by PRF. I'm seeing it as a future Olympic event...
Energy levels slowly coming back. I managed 30 miles last week, and some speedwork today. It wasn't what I'd ideally like, but given the last few weeks, a really bad night's sleep and pouring rain and strong headwinds in places I'll take the paces I got. Sale Sizzler on Thursday, I'm thinking a pb isn't on the cards, but it'll be a good workout!
Calculator here: http://www.howardgrubb.co.uk/athletics/wmalookup06.html
84.68% Hilly (5K, 19:20, April)
83.98% PhilPub (HM, 1:12:48, May)
83.19% BR (10K, 34:40, June)
81.22% PRF (10K, 36:37, June)
77.97% forever (10K, 42:34, April)
77.46% Duck (800m, 2'10.58, May)
77.17% Simon E (800m, 2'11.40 July)
74.50% YD (5K, 17:31, April)
73.94% Minni (10K, 42:57, April)
72.88% Mr V (5K, 17:42, July)
72.73% Ratzer (100m, 14.2, June)
71.95% Dash (10K, 39:47, April)
70.10% YoungPup (5K, 19:29, June)
68.63% Dr.Dan (5K, 20:40, June)
67.98% Darola (10K, 43:45, July)
66.94% Curly (5k, 22:07, June)
64.94% CB (5K, 20:25, April)
Duck, sounds like a decent day's work to me. To run only 0.5 seconds outside your PB 25 minutes after a 400, wind-assisted or not, is quite impressive IMO.
Duck - sounds like you have diversified recently
.
The Wava league board has got some pretty good times up.
PP - did you set that 72min half while also cycling? Either way that is so fast
Sorry, I do not post regularly. I feel guilty as I take away from this thread far more than I contribute
My training has been going pretty well - just enjoying building up the high milage.
But I do have a little worry: I have gained a few pounds recently and also lost core strength. I am in a 40 mile rest week atm, having come down from 75 miles. I have got 80 miles planned next week too. Would any of you recommend doing two weeks a 40 miles to give me a bit more time to loose a few pounds and regain core strength before I return to large(ish) miles?
Another thing I wanted to get some feedback on is that I am currently divided over whether or not I want to enter ultras or cx races when I decide to start racing. They both have their attractions to me. Although I could do both, I'd rather focus on one type of racing in order to get as good as I can at it (rather than being average at both)
Duck - yep, sounds like a good day's work to me. Talking of diversifying, I wonder whether I'll ever get a chance to improve my rather soft shot put PB?
Josh - Whenever I've managed to trim down it's always been with a combo of aerobic and strength exercise, but not trying to do so much that I'm too knackered to do any of it properly. Is there any particular reason why you're trying to run 80 miles per week? How does this break down into sessions? It just sounds like an awful lot, especially since it's not that long ago that you were having (not properly diagnosed??) injury problems.
I know there's more than one way to skin a cat but I didn't run over 50mpw before the HM (plus a fair bit of cycling and gym work as you know.) What your training looks like will obviously depend on what you're training for but I'd try to combine whatever running you intend doing going forward with at least a couple of core sessions per week. (By the way, if you're running 75 mpw but putting on a few pounds, this would simply suggest that you've overcompensating on the refuelling, so you might want to look at that...)
As for planned races... I've never done an ultra but IMO they're a different kettle of fish from the general mix of long distance races you can train for; 5k/10k up to marathon, XC, etc... you can get away with fairly similar training for all this type of stuff, perhaps setting aside 2/3 months for specific marathon training (if that's your thing). Even then, it depends what you want out of it. I know ultra runners who compete over much shorter distances, but if they're any good at ultras you can bet they're pretty pedestrian over 5k.
Simon - My running-OCD/weather-OCD club mate has pulled out of the 1,500 tomorrow, complaining about wind. Not me though, I've got a soft-PB, V40 ranking, thread-smack-down to sort out!
Josh, I certainly wouldn't be thinking about ultras at this stage in life so I think focusing on a strong XC season is best. No worries about time, just focusing on honest racing & it'll improve overall strength & robustness.
Good to see things are starting to come back cb.
I have 8*400 planned for today, but after driving 3 hours to get home yesterday I can't be bothered going into town to the track so I'm going to do it on the road instead. It's all about intensity anyway so no biggie.
Josh, running 80 mile in a week burns around 9,500 kcal. If you're not losing weight, then it suggests that you are consuming something like 3,800-3,900 kcal per day in food/drink
. If you want to lose weight, then that's where you should start.
Curly's the person to talk to about the weight side but the basics I go by is big breakfast, reasonable-sized lunch but not much for dinner and nothing after that until morning (so ~12 hours fast).
8*400 w/75s rec done. Measured out a reasonable accurate 400m section & marked it off so I ran exactly the same distance each time (even if it wasn't 400m on the dot). Intervals 1, 3, 5, & 7 uphill into wind, 2, 4, 6, & 8 vice versa.
77, 75, 73, 72, 73, 72, 72, 70. Good session, strong and had pace but wasn't dying in lactic acid either. Hamstrings a little tight but it didn't seem to affect me. Considered doing 2 more but I'm moving up to 600m reps Thursday & 3.2k's worth under 5:00/m pace is still a very solid session.
Nice session Duck - was your effort level increased on the odd number reps since they all get faster or was that just a case of warming up as you got into it?
Josh - agree with the others. What have you been eating and running 80 miles a week? Are you living off flapjack? I thought you had problems keeping weight on before? I would suggest cutting increasing cross training (as you are already running lots of miles) going from there. I work on three rules:
Top Tips in order:
1. Run more miles
2. Cross train
3. Start cutting out stuff
Oh and check this page out that Sprouty on fetch made:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/63173215/stillman11.html
It will tell you your Stillman weight and you can decide how far down to the long distance runner ideal (I am just over the average for my height so no need to stress about being in one category or another - think of it as a long term project).
5 miles for me last night, 18 miles of cycling today and a 5k pace session at club. Gulp. Tomorrow's 10 miler could be interesting!
Also have heard that Sunday's race is going to be shit for a number of reasons...am sure my peed off self will give you a full low down in a race report after the event, but let's just say puddles, mud, twists and kissing gates
Josh, that is a big mileage increase considering where you were a few months ago and your prior injury. At your age I certainly wouldn't be concentrating on ultras. A good endurance base takes several years to develop and you can't force it.
As for weight loss, you seem to worry rather a lot about it. I would suggest you don't unless you are bringing your weight down for a specific event or season, and even then you have to offset any performance gains from carrying less mass against loss of strength due to the same.
Duck, it makes absolutely no difference when you eat your calories (wrt to weight loss/gain at least; it can definitely affect performance and recovery). I tend to eat bigger dinners because I like to relax in the evening, I'd get too hungry fasting for 12 hours.
Nice session there. You're looking in good form for the coming relay.
Phil, I told a friend at the club I was racing somebody with your 5k PB and they laughed in my face
I like a biggish dinner because (during the week) it's the only meal I get to cook myself and is therefore the most yummy. Not to mention the fact that it normally comes fairly soon after the day's main training session. The only time consideration I have is to make sure it's early enough to be digested by the time I go to bed.
Simon - Good job it's a sprint then!
Oh that's cheered me up a bit. Last week's 10,000m suffer-fest was enough to get me 3rd on the old codger rankings for the year. (Would've been second, but some other old git ran round the same race in under 31 minutes!!) Moral: most people are old and wise enough not to be such masochists.
My current weight loss approach is this (password is middle ground):
http://www.editgrid.com/user/dr.dan/Food_Exercise_Log_for_web
Basically, I fill in the white squares weight D, food calories H-K and exercise N-P (in miles, not calories)... and it does the rest for me. BMR is calculated from my weight ... then I use a 1.45 fudge factor to account for my daily calories burn (excluding bike/swim/run). Once I had a couple of weeks of data, I adjusted this until it predicted correctly. The food calories were the only real pain to work out but we tend to eat similar meals over the course of the week, so I have my estimates now and the seem to work okay. Predicted weight at end of day (green in W) matches quite well with the actual weight the next morning (white in D). I find it motivates me not to snack and also motivates me to burn a few extra calories. 9lb now in 35 days.
Really? I always thought that metabolism declined throughout the day, which was why it was best to eat less in the evening. Well I'll celebrate this news by a big dinner
Today certainly went better than I was hoping. We've got a Fetch mile not long after the relay so I've got more shots at a good mile time.
Curly, kind of both really. I eased into the session but the odd reps towards the end were harder for the same kind of pace.
Curly - I seem to have a large stomach and a small metabolism. Unfortunately I am like 2 stone off my ideal weight.
. As I mentioned earlier, I used to be anorexic. And when my injury came on I gained loads of weight through comfort eating. If I was not a runner, I would see no reason to lose any less weight, but I'd like to not have a potential 6 pack hidden by a layer of fat 
How necessary is it to have a bmi of under 20 for long distance running? As I have previously suffered from anorexia (which I think contributed to an injury), I kind of vowed to my self to never weigh less than 10 stone. But that is 1 stone more than my ideal weight.
PP and Simon - I have been following the HADD training principles, and am just really enjoying high volume training. Although it is a lot, I have been increasing the miles very steady: (75,75, 70, 70, 35, 65, 65, 60, 60, 30, 55, 55, 50,50). And tbh my legs feel great even at the end of big weeks.
I do worry about my weight Simon
Josh - I'm no expert but have managed to lose 2 stone this year simply by maintaining a regular eating pattern - actually the opposite to what Duck said, I build up through the day! In the week I have a banana for breakfast (about 07:30). A 'large' chicken & bacon salad bap for lunch (around 12:30) and a large dinner (around 19:00). At the weekends I just eat whatever, whenever - including a litre of chocolate milk
after my 10miler on a Sunday. Match that with the fact that I've only been averaging around 20 to 25 miles per week (around 30 for the last 5/6 weeks) and it shows that its really just about discipline, with moderate exercise - which once you get to 21 days becomes an easy to maintain habit anyway (apparently thats the time it takes to hardwire a habit in to your brain 
- think brushing your teeth every day, you generally don't have to plan it, you just do it). So combine that with the sort of mileage your doing and the weight should drop off.
Agree with the others, focusing on xc gives you so many options for racing and enjoying your running in similar distanced events, where as ultras will be few and far between and kill you speed for anything else.
Hope it all goes well.
Dr D - impressive weight loss in short order, what was the target?
PP - Great bragging rights on the ranking - how good were you in your younger years?
Curly - races like that are ones to enjoy, you can forget the clock and get stuck in to racing.
Nice progressive 5 for me tonight - 07:58 down to 07:25. Felt easier as it went on to, which was nice to experience. All looking good for a parkrun assault on 20.xx on Saturday, need 20:15 for a 70% WAVA but that might be just out of reach at the moment.
Darola Good progressive run - which parkrun are you doing?
I'm not a fan of slow races if I actually want to race (which at this point in my comeback trail I do). I need a realistic assessment of my time, but it looks like I will have to employ the BS calculator on Sunday night to get an idea. The more certain I am of my current level of fitness over longer distance the more specific me and Moraghan can be about my training over the next few months.
Josh unless you want to be elite nothing at all. My BMI is 21 and I am aiming to get lower in the LONG TERM - no need to diet. Just run lots and see where that takes you, else you could easily fall into the negative spiral with eating disorders again.
Club session last night was a flat top pyramid of 5k efforts:
1, 2, 3, 3, 2, 1 minutes of effort with a minute rest between each and then another set.
Total effort was 24 minutes at 5k pace...which is obviously more than a 5k for me so I took it a little easier and obviously the park terrain isnt the easiest. I ran hard though and averaged under 6:50 mins/mile for the efforts which is good for this point in training. Bloody knackered at the end though and then cycled home - enjoyed my pizza for tea I can tell you!
Darola - good luck with the 70% WAVA target on Saturday. I'd like to have a crack at a parkrun but I'm struggling to find a Saturday when I can make one. Hopefully 4th August ... I'd like to be back below 20 min again. As for target weight loss ... I'd like to be below 12 stone (lowest so far since my 14s 7lb peak in 2008 has been 12s 4lb, this time last year). If I can get down to 11s 7lb, I'd be very chuffed. However, it will get tougher, so we'll see.
Dorla - Thanks. I was thinking of eating this roughly each day:
Food Calories Cereal 455 Banana 100 Apple 70 Banana 100 Apple 70 Sandwich 500 Cereal bar 200 Apple 70 Malt loaf 200 Banana 100 Dinner 550 Apple 70 Ice Lolly 70 2555Any thoughts from anyone?
Curly - ok that is reassuring thanks. This is why I wanted to impose a weight limit on myself, as I know as a fact that I begin to look very skinny towards 9.5 stone.
Evening!
CB: good to see you back, and hopefully meet up with you at tomorrow's Sizzler. I will be wearing a Sale Harriers marshalling bib! (And will wear a red Bijing Olympics cap and Asics trainers too. What else I wear will depend on the weather!)
Interesting talk re weight. My contributions, for what they are worth:
1. When I was running to a reasonable standard I never thought about what I ate...just ate lots! I was usually around 8 stone 7 at 5 foot 6, although did, deliberately, get down to 8stone 2 to be a bantamweight at weightlifting! everybody seemed much thinner in those days and I was never thought of as underweight: if I was that weight now people would probably point fingers and ask questions. In my view too many runners carry too much weight these days.
2. My expeiment of one says that as we get older our metabolism does change. I now struggle with my weight, even when running (still injured, by the way) and eat (and drink) far, far, less than in my 20s. Now that I am not running I am putting on weight at a rapid rate of knots despite attempts to consume less.
Me again! Meant to ask:
1. Does anyone know of a 5k/5 mile race in London over the next couple of weeks? My Clapham based female athlete is looking for such a race before she goes on hoilday on 3rd August.
2. PhilP (and others): have you considered running in any of the British Masters events whilst you are at the younger end of your age group? http://www.bvaf.org.uk/fix/fix.asp
Wonder what Tom's view and experience is/was of weight?
Curly, is that the same sprouty who posted on here right back at the very start!? Good table though & I'm right on the average for my height, give or take.
Pretty hefty session! Looks promising for your 5k time. Do you think you'll have a crack at sub-20 after your marathon next year? Or even sooner?
Nice progression run Darola. I like progression runs! Probably the best type of session you can do for road racing IMO - teaches gradually increasing effort levels, not setting off too fast, gets the upper aerobic development in, threshold & higher threshold stuff like 10kp and even faster.
5M today, very wet & windy but decent pace @ 8:04/m.
Now Saturday could be interesting. I'm planning on doing the Laurencekirk tower hill race (just over 5k) which starts at 11am.... and not far from the Aberdeen parkrun either (9:30am).
I don't suppose it takes a genius to figure out what I'm planning
Darola - According to elevation etc. Cannon Hill is flat. But when I run it I always think it is hilly! I guess at 5k pace you feel the struggles up the hills more than at slowe paces
Hi there Alehouse. I'm like you in that I never bothered what I specifically ate. My normal habits were always for fresh made, home cooked food plus a post training carb load (bananas, cereals, tuna sarnies, that sort of stuff...). Based on that, my best weight was 10st 2lb (height 5"10"). That situation is underpinned by the view that you can eat whatever you want and run it off! Also I was always a bit slapdash about rehydration.
Over the past 2-3 years I've not run a great deal (injury etc) and made the effort not to fuel at the level I did. Despite that my eight wandered up to 11st 7lb. However over the past six months, whilst back running (30-40mpw) it's dropped to 10st 4lb. At the present moment I don't think I'm eating enough to sustain this....problem is I'm just not running fast enough to justify the attention to detail, though my sensible side says that I should address it.
Very happy to report my first pb post VLM and finally a sub 21 to my name. Just beat you to it Darola
Went off way too fast but managed to hang on for 20.54. Just really glad to have a 5k pb that begins with a 20!!! plus it gives me a new wava to escape from that Simon
Josh, I'd don't think it's sensible to comment/advise someone about calorie intake who has had an eating disorder. It's probably best to enjoy the running and eat enough calories to maintain your weight ... there's a danger that running can become a way to legitimise weight loss. It's probably something you should discuss with your GP rather than get advice from a forum. This is a good place to get training advice, of course!
Dan, that's a serious spreadsheet. Obviously working for you though. I have logged calories in the past, and although i wouldn't want to do it all the time I think it can be a good way of getting better at estimating what you are eating and how much you need to compensate etc.
Nice session, Curly. I found those sort of pyramid sessions brilliant for building fitness over the winter.
Duck, has PRF been giving you silly ideas?
Alehouse, I was going to do the BMAF Champs in Derby, but that's the missus' birthday weekend. Those events are quite popular with the vets at Croydon.
So, the BMC 1500 tonight with Phil and Ben (clubmate). We were all there at 7.45 and noticed the race was at 9 and had a pacer who was going to go through 800 in 2:20. Excellent. The weather was on and off rain and wind, but just before the race it didn't seem too bad.
The start was fast and I got stuck and boxed a little in about 6th place. I managed to sneak up to 4th and sat behind the pacer, Ben and some kid, with Phil breathing down my neck. At this point, we had our names read out on the PA, and they actually pronounced my surname correctly, which was nice.
I tried to stay about a second behind the pacer, and did, but was a little dismayed when he went through the first lap a bit slow (72), which meant I went through in 73. Slightly off pace for sub 4:30, but not a bad first lap.
I noticed the pacer and Ben pulling away a bit due to the kid in front slowing down, so I decided to overtake him down the straight. He picked things up a little when he saw me, so I had to put on a quick spurt to catch him before the bend.
I guess Phil went past him too, because I could still hear breathing down me neck, but I did my best to keep the pace up. I went through the next lap in 72.
OK, time to get stuck in for that notoriously hard 300. This was completed in 55 seconds (73/400). I had slowed slightly, but not too bad. Ben was miles in front and I knew I wouldn't catch him, but the fear of getting overtaken kept me going.
It was hurting now and I made a concious effort to relax and keep the pace up. I could no longer hear breathing behind me, but my breathing was pretty heavy by this point. With 200 to go I pushed a little more and with 100 I really got stuck in to some serious gurning and finished in second place. The last lap was 72, which saw me a new PB of 4:32.0 (previous 4:33.18).
Nice to see Phil and a nice event all round. As for BS calculations, aside from about 1/2 second getting very slightly boxed at the start and about 1 second of wind on the third or fourth lap, I can't say much. I felt fresh before the race and good doing strides; the pacing was good; I pushed myself hard and I got a PB. But most importantly 1-0 to me
And a new WAVA. I thought I was catching forever, but apparently not. Congrats on the PB, but I thought we had agreed that they were boring now
MIDDLE GROUND WAVA LEAGUE (April- July)
Calculator here: http://www.howardgrubb.co.uk/athletics/wmalookup06.html
84.68% Hilly (5K, 19:20, April)
83.98% PhilPub (HM, 1:12:48, May)
83.19% BR (10K, 34:40, June)
81.22% PRF (10K, 36:37, June)
77.97% forever (10K, 42:34, April)
77.46% Duck (800m, 2'10.58, May)
77.30% Simon E (1500m, 4'32.0 July)
74.50% YD (5K, 17:31, April)
73.94% Minni (10K, 42:57, April)
72.88% Mr V (5K, 17:42, July)
72.73% Ratzer (100m, 14.2, June)
71.95% Dash (10K, 39:47, April)
70.10% YoungPup (5K, 19:29, June)
68.63% Dr.Dan (5K, 20:40, June)
67.98% Darola (10K, 43:45, July)
66.94% Curly (5k, 22:07, June)
64.94% CB (5K, 20:25, April)