We all die in the end....

124

Comments

  • PhilPubPhilPub ✭✭✭

    Let's face it, if religion does anything right it's building pretty churches - that's why people still get married in them.  I can remember going to a (very non-religious) friend's wedding in a church, where the vicar probably guessed the congregation was largely non-religious, and said, in a not very roundabout way, "It doesn't really matter if you don't believe in God, He still loves you."  Nice logic, vicar.  (Not at all patronising.)

    It does wind me up slightly that religion seems to have a hold on certain elements of life's landmarks, namely births, deaths and marriages.  Why do people get christened?  (Original sin?  F*ck off, how can I possibly sin even before I'm born?!)  Why get married in a church or have a priest carry out your funeral service?  On the other hand I think the bigger questions will always be the bigger questions so I'll always be a firm agnostic atheist, subject to revelation.  I'm with Einstein - I believe in Spinoza's God.

    image

  • Pity - you're all going to hell....image
  • PhilPubPhilPub ✭✭✭

    Don't get me started on religion and morality.  I've done something a bit naughty but if I sit in a booth and talk through a panel of wood with some holes in it to some old bloke on the other side, then kneel down at a bench outside and say three Hail Marys, everything will be OK.

    That's all right then.

  • MrsK8MrsK8 ✭✭✭

    Phil - I agree, unless you specify otherwise. You can expect any ceremony to be religious. I know we're a 'Christian' country but the majority of genuiene Christians in this country must now be the minority?

  • Both my parents are dead. One died quickly (though alone) and one died slowly (cancer) and I know I will NEVER see them again.  I canot delude myself into thinking differently

    Whereas if I was religious I would believe that I would see them again and would probably feel better for it.

    In quantum physics though the act of observing, measuring etc can affect the outcome. Taken to its logical conclusion if you believe something enough it will happen. In fact I read that one physicist/cosmologist recently said that the Universe is only the way it is because we think it is.

    Maybe there is something in this religion lark after all image

  • There's definitely a strong link between running and depression!! if, cheer up y'all the sun's shining.
  • PhilPubPhilPub ✭✭✭

    moiri - the fact that science gets a bit weird at the quantum level is one of the things that makes me think that agnosticism is the only 'rational' stance to take on this whole head-numbing business.  And I don't mean agnosticism in the 'sitting on the fence' sense that some people think of, believe me I've thinking (maybe a bit too hard) about the whole thing since I started questioning my Catholic 'faith' at about the age of 11.

    Sure, there are black and white questions which can be asked where science has already shown certain religious doctrines to be tosh, but there will always be more sophisticated questions, IMO.

  • We come into this world with nothing and leave with nothing.

    Just make sure you don't nothing inbetween.image

  • CorinthianCorinthian ✭✭✭
    I think even the most convinced atheist can only ever really be agnostic about god. There is no way of really proving there isn't a god. By god I mean in the abrahamic tradition and monotheistic sense. The nearest you can get to actuality is suggesting that the evidence suggests that it is highly unlikely that there is a god.

    I'm almost convinced that there isn't a god- in much the same way I'm almost convinced there will be a tomorrow, the sun will appear to rise and there will be air to breathe.

    The thing about my mum dying is that she was just as convinced that there is a God, she was going to be reunited with her parents, go to heaven and be rewarded for a good life.

    Even is she was wrong - and I'm sure she was - it made her death much easier for her as she was convinced she was off on her holidays...

    That's the only point I ever envy believers - the certainty that they will find happiness beyond death.

  • http://www.illustrated-db-discography.nl/12inch/pix/Ashes.jpg


    Ashes to ashes, fun to funky.
  • Corinthian wrote (see)
    I think even the most convinced atheist can only ever really be agnostic about god. There is no way of really proving there isn't a god. By god I mean in the abrahamic tradition and monotheistic sense. The nearest you can get to actuality is suggesting that the evidence suggests that it is highly unlikely that there is a god.

    As a healthy atheist with a tinge of agnosticism, I totally agree. However, I find it interesting that when confronted by my own mortality, or immediate possible termination thereof (which has happened on one too many occasions),  the words that slip out involuntarily are often, "Oh God".

     I can appreciate that this is cultural conditioning on one level. But hailing from an atheist family, it has always struck me as odd. It is beyond just the vocal tick, there is a certain sense that something must help me get out of this mess, surely?!

  • CorinthianCorinthian ✭✭✭
    I totally agree Frodo - I come from a very religious background but didn't really lose my faith. I don't think I really ever had it. I remember having my first doubts when I was about six at Sunday school.

    However, as a very young bloke I remember being in a life threatening situation of extreme violence and praying like a ranting Jesuit to be spared!

    Someone once said that there are no atheists in a foxhole - but I think it was James Morrow who said that this isn't an argument against atheism - it's an argument against foxholes.

    Same as Pascals Wager - it always strikes me as odd that this worn argument is trolled out as a justification for belief. What these people are saying is: "I'm believing for purely utilitarian reasons" This strikes me as feeble.

    But - whatever gets people through the night... as long as they leave me to my faithlessness
  • the first step is to know the difference between a living body and a dead body. the difference is when someone died the soul leaves the body,  but to know this it requires a little intelligence , for example as a child grows, he becomes a boy, the boy becomes a young man, the young man becomes an adult, and the adult becomes a old man, throughout all this time, his body is changeing from child to old man , he still feels himself to be the same person, just see; the body is changeing but the occupier of the body( you) the soul is staying the same think about it deep thing, if one does not know about spiritual life the soul, and only materail life the body, the body will died but the soul will go on due to his or her karma,  and that a hole new ball game, just trying to help that all, now i get the stick thats ok, kindest regards to one and all.
  • Corinthian wrote (see)
    But - whatever gets people through the night... as long as they leave me to my faithlessness
    image Amen to that! image

    Was that too obvious? Sorry image

    On my wedding day (now divorced) there was an almighty (!) thunder storm. So timed was it that there were lightning strikes and thunder claps as we were saying our vows. (It had me in fits of giggles - I was only in the church because it was what he and his family wanted). Belief in a supreme deity or otherwise, it still makes me smile to this day. image
  • CorinthianCorinthian ✭✭✭
    Lol re the amen and the wedding day experience!

    I remember during a funeral for an ex-colleague carrying the very heavy coffin with six other fellas and one of them stage whispering in a very strong Irish accent just before we entered the church 'Jaysus Christ, the weight of him.. I'm sure this bastard in here has still got his army boots on'

    Picture the scene of six blokes giggling like schoolgirls but trying to remain dignified and mournful for the family's sake ...
  • Phil, I agree. The Universe is a lot weirder than anyone ever imagined and you can't really rule out anything. But from a scientific perspective there's no measurable evidence of a God either.

    Soulmate, you, your self awareness, are just a product of your memories and environment.

    People who suffer brain damage and loss of long term memories often become completely different people with different tastes, interests and personalities,  if the soul (the essence of you) was as you describe then it would remain the same.  However, it is impossible to argue against faith as it doesn't require proof or evidence otherwise it wouldn't be faith.

    Personally I hope you are right and if everybody believed in karma the world would probably be a better place. Assuming we were judged on a reasonably moral basis.

    Which opens up another can of worms because what we judge nowadays to be moral and correct is very different from what we believed in the past. And different cultures have very different perspectives on it.

    So who's set of rules are we to be judged by ?

    And shouldn't I be out running instead  discussing the meaning of life?    image 

  • hi moiri i follow the vedlic style of life lived in temple for 6years that was 14 years a go, just like george harris, as you say it all start from faith, and what you put your faith in, god or money etc , when i lived in the temlpe in india so many people i met had outer body experience and i felt they was telling truth, the vedlic scriptures have been hear since creation they tell you everthing you need to know about life but as you say we have to start with some faith at first then if there is a god and he see your readly looking for they truth he must respond, love is two sides the lover and the beloved, sorry i stop nice to have a chat,  may good  forture follow you.

  • Corinthian wrote (see)
    Picture the scene of six blokes giggling like schoolgirls but trying to remain dignified and mournful for the family's sake ...


    image Tut, tut! image

    OK, confession time (see what I did there. Sorry again image) I am a terrible one for the giggles...

    Whilst at university I was a choral scholar (surprisingly well paid, believe it or not, must be due to all those years of corrupt financial activities in the church) and we got paid extra to sing at weddings, christenings and funerals. I wasn't up for the funerals, a few close friends and relatives had died and I just wasn't able to sing in those services, but I'd take any of the other services (probably the root of my wedding cynicism, tooimage).

    However, there was this PA system thing for the vicar that kept picking up CB interference from the local taxi firms. So picture this scene, beautiful christening service with a mass being sung from the stalls as the baby is baptised...

     "I name this child....*crackle hiss* ..Fecking hell, can someone please tell me where the feck the fare is on *** street?!...*crackle hiss*"

    And the Agnus Dei continues, serenely in the background with the big solo moment, meant to be the heavenly voice of an angel, comes and goes awkwardly, as I have turned puce and am snorting into my cassock. Got demoted to the back row for that one.

  • PhilPub wrote (see)

    Don't get me started on religion and morality.  I've done something a bit naughty but if I sit in a booth and talk through a panel of wood with some holes in it to some old bloke on the other side

    Who's probably been knobbing the choirboys...

    I must say I do find it strange that grown men and women, who appear in every other way to be quite sane, will stand up and praise something that there's no real evidence for. I can't help believing it's a similar job to politics where people are there purely for what they can get out of it. Mind you, I wouldn't do it for all the cucumber sandwiches and vicar's brew in China.

  • MrsK8MrsK8 ✭✭✭

    Christians believe that God is all powerful (omni something).

    Christians believe that God is all loving (omni something else).

    And no one can argue that there isn't evil & suffering in the world.

    Bit of a contradiction really.

    I can't really comment on other religions as I don't know enough about them to comment.  

  • Your post is refreshing k8: "I can't really comment on other religions as I don't know enough about them....".

    This thread, in common with many similar ones here and on other fora highlights a curious factor when faith is discussed: all kinds of people who admit to knowing very little about the subject put forward extremely strong and inaccurate views as though they are experts!  I was particulary amused by the complaint about a child being expected to thank God for his food; the poster thought this was inappropriate as it was a muti-faith school, (paraphrasing) "so which God were they thanking?"

    Sometimes I don't know whether to laugh or cry!

  • K8 ... The argument goes that taking away our capacity to do evil takes away free will.

    We're meant to be good of our own free will before being allowed into whatever paradise awaits.

    The problem is that every groups interpretation of 'good' differs according to their culture and the historical context. I'm sure many things that we or the state do (legally) now will be looked upon as horrific cruelty by future generations.

    And the criteria for access to paradise will be redefined.

  • PhilPubPhilPub ✭✭✭
    moiri wrote (see)

    The problem is that every groups interpretation of 'good' differs according to their culture and the historical context. I'm sure many things that we or the state do (legally) now will be looked upon as horrific cruelty by future generations.


    Another problem is that there are nasty things that happen which are outside of the control of humanity's free will, like earthquakes, tsunamis and hurricanes, which presumably the omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent God would be able to prevent from happening.  Just to add insult to injury, generally speaking His representatives on Earth will then have the gall to pipe up and suggest that, actually, it is revenge against certain members of the human race that God doesn't really like (even though He created them) such as homosexuals.

  • D2D.. I think it is against their religion to charge interest rather than be in debt.

    I hope you didn't mention debt in order to provoke another outburst about bets....

    Phil, yes or alternatively the argument is that we are being tested. 

Sign In or Register to comment.