Sub 3h15

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  • Interesting news about the spring Jersey marathon Gerard, maybe something for the future. I keep thinking I should pop over and see the family (one of whom is a member of the Spartans I believe) and maybe accidentally coincide it with a race (sorry Dear, didn't realise it was on but it would be a shame not to do it now I'm here). I spent many summer holidays on the island as a kid as my father was from Jersey and my grandparents owned a pub/cafe on the seawall at l'Etacq and lived just off St Quen's Bay.

  • GM - good luck on Sunday - sounds fun. I don't really have a mara PB. I got a charity place in VLM 2010, but picked up an injury 3 weeks before the race. I took a complete rest and planned to give it a go and just jog round to complete it for the charity. After 8 miles I started to slow down and by half way I couldn't lift my left leg properly. Instead of bowing out gracefully, I struggled on and limped to the finish with a rather strange gait (I had to swing the left leg round) and completed it in 6:20! It was rather painful and I ended up on crutches for 5 weeks. The following year, I entered the Robin Hood marathon, but hadn't learnt the first lesson of not over-training and injured an ankle. Fortunately I had learnt the second lesson and pulled out with a DNS. That was 2 years ago and I'd like to think that I am more sensible now and hopefully ready for a third crack at the marathon. So sub 3:15 is only a nominal target at the moment, but as I said 3:10 would halve my "PB".

  • moofmoof ✭✭✭
    Gul, sounds a painful experience but taking 3.10 off of your pb did make me laugh (out loud).
  • GerardMGerardM ✭✭✭

    GD - I thought about 6:20 then thought nah, but then you never know with a marathon. I can't believe you completed it. I am not a fan of walking unless it involves a beach and water! You are a completely different runner now in many ways so I would expect you to do really well given an injury free campaign and all else being well.image

    BOTF - That's interesting. I am also a member of Spartans. I may know your family member who is a member! Can I be nosey and ask what their name is? St Ouen's bay is a special spot and a great place for running too. Yes, there is a small group of runners who have set up their own website and are experimenting a bit with different types of events and at different times of the year. It's a good thing but the major limiting factor in Jersey is the number of runners who would participate in all these events. The website is runjersey.co.uk, it's a bit chaotic in terms of what they are trying to do and the layout but I love racing so I'm not complaining.

  • AbbersAbbers ✭✭✭

    Gul, painful lessons! Your London experience sounds horrendous. Still, Milton Keynes can only be better, right? Thinking about the MK HM on March 9th as one of my build up races.

    GM - some quick kids over on the island!

    9.5 for me today in a 2 w/u, 2 HM pace, 2 steady, 2 HM pace, 1.5 c/d stylie. Forgot my Garmin was still set to manual splits after Bournemouth (d'oh!), so the 2 HM sections averaged roughly 6:40 and 6:50 pace respectively. My first faster miles since Bournemouth, so about time I got back to it.

     

  • That will be an impressive PB improvement Gul!! image

    I think 6 months is more than enough time based on your current fitness level and I'm sure (and I really hope) you'll smash 3:15.

  • GM - forgot to say about the six months not long enough comment. I should be starting base-training next week with a 54 mile week and a 16 mile long run. The schedule I was working on would allow me to reach my first 20 mile run on 1st March, with 9 weeks till Milton Keynes. Just enough time to get the obligatory 5x20 milers in, but ideally I would have liked to have had more.
    Abbers - Very nice session from you today.

  • SJ - x-post. You know me  - I don't like to rush things!

  • Indeed.  If your approach was crossed with mine we'd probably be on to a perfectly balanced training plan.....

  • GM - Pauline Alderman, she's a cousin of some description. Any plans for a Jersey parkrun at all?

  • GerardMGerardM ✭✭✭

    BOTF - Ah I know Pauline to see, she has improved of late has she not? I am not sure there would be enough interest but it would be fab. Runjersey are on about doing some corporate 5k lunch races on a weekly basis. That would be similar I guess and it's a great incentive for everyone to leave their offices and have a smack down along the seafront. I run most lunch days.

    Gul - you are very sensible, however would it not be more beneficial to start the 20 milers before Mar 1 to allow for any injuries etc? That's what ruined my recent marathon campaign as I got injured and you never can make up for the lost time. Just a thought that's all but I am sure your attention to detail and careful planning will get you the result you are looking for!

    Abbers  - yes there are indeed. The 13 year old who beat me last year has an 18:20 pb for 5k!

  • GM, my wife is also keen to go to Jersey one year, can you post up a few dates of good races as and when you become aware of them?

    Question for those who feel the urge to swim and cycle before they run: how fast is a good triathlete?

    What I mean is, say I take an Olympic distance (that is the one with a 10k run at the end isn't it?) then I know 10k in about 40 minutes as a runner is a good target. What is the same for a good triathlete, do they do 40 as well or are they slower, and if slower by how much? it seems that the elites (Alistair Brownlee) can run about 29 dead for a 10k and not much faster on the road when doing a solo 10k.

  • MsEMsE ✭✭✭

    Copied and pasted something from Greg McMillan which I think resonate with many of you.  Apologies for the length (oo-er) but it is all good stuff.  Happy injury-free running! image

    "THE BENEFITS OF BAD WORKOUTS

    Bad workouts and races--we all have them and we always will. So why fight them? Why not learn from them? As I work with beginners, Boston qualifiers and Olympic hopefuls, I no longer fret about the occasional bad workout or race. I see them as learning opportunities. Most of the time, they're harbingers of better things to come, because the coach and athlete are now smarter than they would be if things went exactly to plan. Let's look at the main reasons for bad workouts and what to do about them.

     WRONG TYPE

    If you have a workout that goes poorly, evaluate if that workout fits what type of runner you are. Workouts in areas that are our weakness are where we are more likely to struggle. For example, I'm more of a speedster whereas my training partner is more of an endurance monster. So, when we do workouts at 5K pace or faster, I'm usually the one who has the "good" workout. However, when we get to tempo runs, he kicks my butt, making me feel like it was a "bad" workout. At first, I was frustrated because we both have the same race times. But I learned that it really came down to our physiological and psychological differences. I now accept that workouts that are my weakness are more likely to be "bad" ones. ("Bad" is a relative term. In this case, I mean that I struggle to hit the paces that I would expect based on my fitness level.)

    I know going into these longer workouts that I'm going to have to really "bring it" to have a good one; if it doesn't go as well as I'd hoped, I don't worry about it. For workouts that are my strength, however, I always expect them to go well. (If they don't, I can probably tie them to the outside factors discussed in the next paragraph.) This subtle understanding of your strengths and weaknesses can take the pressure off every workout--no matter what kind it is (stamina, speed, sprint)--and make you more accepting of the tough workouts and races.

     OUTSIDE FACTORS

    I'm always amazed at how upset runners get when a workout or race goes poorly when there's clearly a reason for it. For example, let's say you have an important deadline at work, and this looming project weighs heavy on your mind. But your training plan says to do a 30-minute tempo run. You try to squeeze in the workout at lunchtime, but the workout goes poorly. Any outsider can see that your workout was compromised by your work stress, but you're likely to get worried about your "bad" workout and let it affect your confidence.

    We tend to separate life stress from training stress. But they're all part of one stress pie, and you can tolerate only so much of it, no matter how tough and determined you are.

    The same goes for environmental conditions. If it's hot, humid or both, your workouts will be compromised. You may read that and think, "Of course." But how often do you hope for a great workout even though it's hot? This is setting yourself up for failure and disappointment. Instead, adjust your expectations and use the "bad" workout as a time to build your determination--the quality that keeps you going even though the workout or race isn't going your way.

    SPREAD THE STRESS

    Recovery often plays a role in bad workouts and races. When a workout goes wrong, look at the few days preceding it. Were you simply not recovered and ready for a hard effort? Again, this is where our being a slave to the training plan can hurt us. Your training plan should be a flowing schedule, where you're constantly moving things around to make sure the body's stress/rest cycle is obeye

  • MsEMsE ✭✭✭

    Grr *will resonate*

  • MsEMsE ✭✭✭

    (continued where it was cut off) ...

    SPREAD THE STRESS

    Recovery often plays a role in bad workouts and races. When a workout goes wrong, look at the few days preceding it. Were you simply not recovered and ready for a hard effort? Again, this is where our being a slave to the training plan can hurt us. Your training plan should be a flowing schedule, where you're constantly moving things around to make sure the body's stress/rest cycle is obeyed. Be open to the possibility that what you think is enough recovery isn't. In those cases, spread the stress--allow another day or two of recovery after that type of workout.

     EBB AND FLOW

    Accept that the body has an ebb and flow that we don't quite understand. Some days you just feel "off." As hard as it is to accept a bad workout or race when there are valid reasons, it's doubly challenging when there appears to be no reason at all. I used to worry about this, but now I just shrug it off as the quirkiness of the body and mind. Don't invest in it or overthink it. Move on.

    RED FLAGS

    If you have several bad workouts and races in a row, something's amiss. In these cases, you need to do a more thorough evaluation of your overall training plan and your life schedule. Usually, something's out of balance. I often see runners who are trying to do too much training (either in quantity or quality or both). Or they have too much going on in their lives outside of running and are too fatigued (mentally and physically) to have consistent training and racing. If you're having repeated bad workouts or races, you may need to back off a bit and lower your expectations. Reduce your volume and intensity by 10 to 30 percent. Do this until your workouts and races improve, then gradually work back up to your normal training."

  • TRTR ✭✭✭

    PMJ - depends upon your definition of how good a good triathlon run is, I'd say 36min or better. They arnt running much slower than they could do without the swim/bike warm up, even as much as 10sec/mile slower (which is a considerable pace change) is only ~60 sec over 10k. Alistair Brownlee ran 29:XX including a walking finish at the Olympics, but he wouldnt have Mo Farah losing sleep.

  • JoolskaJoolska ✭✭✭

    Wise words, MsE: a good reminder when I was 10s/mile off my planned 5k pace reps.  Then I remembered I had 5 hours' sleep last night (I need about 8), was in court all day and was therefore a bit dehydrated.  Still, workout done and a taper isn't a taper without a workout in which you feel a bit knackered and lethargic.

  • PMJ, I'm wondering what's behind your question. Planning to do your next 10k after a bit of a warm up? Aaaarrr

    Less speedy people, and those doing longer courses seem to have a significant drop off in performance. Quel surprise. But as TR says, "significant" means different things to different people. At top end running 10s a mile is the difference of 4:20 ish on a marathon: ie the difference between 1st and 11th at London, or just short of a mile on the road.

    As for the likes of the support crew, I'd like to give more information in a couple of days' time.

  • GM - yes, I agree that it would be beneficial to start the 20 milers before March, but I like to build up the weekly mileage and long run very slowly. That's why I said that six months isn't long enough!
    MsE - thanks for the McMillan article - good stuff!
    4 snail-like miles d&d.

  • Good to hear that the 'taperers' seem to be keeping it together. Keep it up - almost there.

    Last long run of 2013 for me today. A 20 miler where I managed to simulate those last few marathon miles when you are knackered and are trying to maintain some kind of pace. I achieved this by starting with 5 miles @ 6min/m pace. Made for a tough last 5 miles.

  • G-DawgG-Dawg ✭✭✭

    Hi Everyone, mind if I barge in?
    I'm looking for the magic 3.15 at the Brighton marathon next April. Not sure how to hit that time but hoping for tips on here that will at least see me break 3.20.

    I did Paris this year and got a PB of 3.23. I had injury woes in training and during the race itself. Had to stop at 16 miles, stretch and massage my calf muscle before nursing it to 20 and then just going for it in an all or nothing approach for the final 6.2. Luckily it worked. Injury aside, I'm sure I would have hit sub 3.20 that day but is there such a thing as a perfect marathon? image

    My 3.23 was a Boston Qualifier as I'm an old git who's just turned 46. So with creaking bones and knackered muscles I'm looking to run 3 timers per week with a good mix of LSR, intervals and tempo and with an optional 4th run down the gym on a treadmill. Train smarter is this year's theme and I'll see where that takes me.

    Cheers

    SB

  • Welcome SB, stick around on here for some great advice and motivation. What sort of injuries did you have and why do you think you got them?

    I think that to go sub 3:15 you definitely want to up your number of weekly runs to four. Otherwise it's very difficult to get the required mileage in (45-50mpw minimum). 

    6.5 miles for me this morning, with a couple of kms at 6:00mm. Feeling good about my 10k this Sunday, but must be realistic about times - anything sub 40 would be aceptable, though I should be able to do a bit better than just scrape that. It's sold out - 2,500 runners, making it one of the biggest turn-outs of the whole year here in Asturias, only beaten by the San Silvestres (the annual New Year's Eve races) in Gijón and Oviedo.

  • Welcome Badger,

    it is a bit quiet today; plenty are approaching marathon day, so lets tip toe around and not wake them!

    Stick around for plenty of opinions on training etc. At the moment I am on a high mileage 'plan', but intend to drop back down for next year. I'm currently rereading the Furman FIRST book "Run less, Run Faster" which I may have a go at next year. It is worth a read, but seems light on medium length runs midweek, and is fairly full on when it comes to pacing.

    it would be useful to hear about the training you did for Paris, and any times you have for half marathons etc.

    Well done on the Boston Qualifier- will you be running it next year?

  • Blisters said (as we have lost the quote button)

    PMJ, I'm wondering what's behind your question. Planning to do your next 10k after a bit of a warm up? Aaaarrr

    Less speedy people, and those doing longer courses seem to have a significant drop off in performance. Quel surprise.

    Well firstly no intention of ever doing a triathlon. I can run, I can ride a bike reasonably well but can't afford to spend as much on a decent bike as a decent car. I swim as I sail, surf and canoe so if I fall in I am happy to bob about or swim to shore but there is no requirement for speed, all that is required is survival.

    I am just puzzled by the whole thing. I see a lot of triathletes at running races and they look the part but run like their Mums so they are either poseurs or the triathlon is an event whereby you can be good even if you run 50 mins for 10k. Seems the former is the truth.

  • AbbersAbbers ✭✭✭

    Jools - it's behind you now, onto the next one. Plenty of reasons for it, bank it, and focus on next weekend. That's the run that counts.

    Sounds like a tough run from AR. Is Furman's approach better suited to those with a considerable endurance base already in place, so it's then a matter of piling on quality?

    Lots to digest and think about from MsE.

    Welcome to SB - I'm new round here myself, but they're a very welcoming and friendly bunch, so make yourself comfortable!

    The well deserved recovery miles continue for Gul.

    Ant and all other weekend racers, have good days! image

  • GerardMGerardM ✭✭✭

    PMJ - Of course, here is a link which shows the local running club's running fixtures up to Feb 14. They can be quite slack when it comes to releasing dates in advance but as soon as I have anymore I can send them to you. http://www.jerseyspartan.com/media/PDF's/Distance%20events%20Sept%2013%20-%2014.pdf 

    One race Spartan's have omitted from their calendar is, the Jersey Autumn half marathon and that takes place Sun Nov 17. I am unsure whether I will do it at the mo. It's a nice course with a race track finish which is always nice in my book. Also, there is an independant group who have set up their own website called Run Jersey and they are organising a multitude of events to include trail and road running. Their website is runjersey.co.uk, check it out. If you do decide you are coming over please do let me know and shout if you need any other info etc.

    Ant - Good luck for your 10k, you're sounding confident! Big race numbers hey!

    AR - Are you racing Abo?

    SB - Welcome! Good time in Paris btw, how mara's have you completed so far? Boston is on my list!

    Gul - You are the master of your own destiny as we all are! I must say that I am suprised you are not aiming at a PB for a 10k in the foreseable future with the kind of shape you're in. My motto is always strike while the iron is hot but admittedly I have got burned more than once!image

     

  • Bike ItBike It ✭✭✭
    Also-ran wrote (see)

     20 miler where I managed to simulate those last few marathon miles when you are knackered and are trying to maintain some kind of pace. I achieved this by starting with 5 miles @ 6min/m pace. Made for a tough last 5 miles.

    Good to see you training for the last third of the race AR.  I intend to do some of my LSRs like that too from now (not sure I'll go as fast as 6m/m though)

    Welcome Badger - I also looked at the Furman style programme and seems too agressive on the pacing for me. 

    15 x 1 minute run 1 minute walk for me on the grass at the local park.

  • wot? Like this PMJ?

    Philip_M_Jones wrote (see)

    Blisters said (as we have lost the quote button)

    PMJ, I'm wondering what's behind your question. Planning to do your next 10k after a bit of a warm up? Aaaarrr

    Less speedy people, and those doing longer courses seem to have a significant drop off in performance. Quel surprise.

    Well firstly no intention of ever doing a triathlon. I can run, I can ride a bike reasonably well but can't afford to spend as much on a decent bike as a decent car. I swim as I sail, surf and canoe so if I fall in I am happy to bob about or swim to shore but there is no requirement for speed, all that is required is survival.

    I am just puzzled by the whole thing. I see a lot of triathletes at running races and they look the part but run like their Mums so they are either poseurs or the triathlon is an event whereby you can be good even if you run 50 mins for 10k. Seems the former is the truth.

    I find that triathlon is quite an inclusive event. There's always some spoilsport who cheats by having done some training, but the majority don't seem to have done any. The amusing element is always the bloke with all the gear and no idea. It's not sexist, it's a testosterone replacement therapy for fat blokes. You'll not see a woman of the female variety on a disk wheeled carbon rocket unless she's built like a strand of knotted hair. As for the observation that tri-ers can't run? Absolutely rock on fact. I've seen them standing out at the start, rippling toned and tanned body, then waited for them at the finish line. It's all to do with the basic philosophy: swim a bit, run a bit, bike a lot.

    Nowt for me today. Why? I'm turning into a triathlete.

  • G-DawgG-Dawg ✭✭✭

    Cheers guys.
    My running history is light on mrathons compared to some. I did the London in '93 and '94. didn't have a clue what I was doing and trotted home in 4.45.
    Did my first 'proper' marathon at London 2006. Did 3.47 after hitting the wall badly. Vowed never to hit the wall again...touch wood I haven't.

    Learned from the mistakes and did 3.25 in London in 2009. Had loads of hip/groin/hamstring pain that year which resulted in the discovery of some bone deformity in my hip joint called FAI. All standard stuff so had it drilled and re-shaped in 2010 which meant rehab for 9 months.

    Paris was my first marathon since the Op. I ballsed up big time there due to over-training in the January snow. Did a 20 miler in off-road shoes and knackered my calf/achiles. Idiot! Set me back weeks. However, it did teach me to run LSRs as slow as possible (it's all about time on feet) and put quality sessions in to get the speed sorted midweek. I only need to do 3 x 20 milers too rather the the six I have done before. That's why I feel I can do 3-4 runs per week to PB in Brighton.

    My HM PB is 1.30 but my 10k best isn't so great (42.40).
    Did a casual 7 miler at lunchtime yesterday at 7.10 pace which felt good and is a sign I'm getting some natural speed back. Official Brighton training starts in December.

    Did intervals on Tuesday which was 1 mile w/up - 10 x 60sec mental with 1 min recoveries - 1 mile w/down. All of the mental bits were sub 6 pace.
    I'm interested to see if these sort of sessions are how you guys go low?

    Already I can see there is quality on here. Good running boys and girls!

    SB

  • GM - no I'm not doing Abo. While I am quite content doing double marathons, triple marathons would be for the loons image. 2 weeks to NY so I'm just about to start tapering.

    Abbers - AR. Is Furman's approach better suited to those with a considerable endurance base already in place, so it's then a matter of piling on quality?

    I'm not sure - I think it would appeal more to a triathlete than a pure runner. I'm not sure how qyuickly I will lose endurance, but I'm a willing lab rat. I think I'm on the verge of losing my marathon mojo and am thinking about doing something different next year  (VLM for fun, and focusing on 10K and HM).

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