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Abbers wrote (see)
The schedule for today said 1M jog, then 4 x 1M fast with 400 recoveries, 1M cool down. The "fast" miles (everything's relative!) came out at 6:15, 6:23, 6:30 and 6:45.
The general advice on these type of sessions is to try to be as even as possible, so the last same as the first. Looks to me like you are doing each one slower than the last so you over-cooked it early on. All 4 at 6:30 would make the session far more valuable.
In terms of break-though my advice is go out moderately hard and get something in the bag and hang on for dear life: always works for me. For a sub-90 (6:52 pace) I'd go out at maybe 88 pace (6:43) so halfway in 44 and that leave you 46 to come home in 7:01 pace, easy peasy.
4 ways to look at breakthroughs:
1 As PMJ says, time in the bank (+ trusting the training) is the statistically proven way for the "average" runner to put in a good time. Negative and even splits are talked about, but in the real world are rarely achieved. I did some low level number crunching on this once and the results were very clear.
2 Go out hard but not too hard, keep options open then make a decision 2/3 of the way round whether to stick or twist
3 Maybe the barrier is in the mind - in which case safely breaking it by a little (e.g. 1.31 to 1.29.45) will avoid crash'n'burn and might open the confidence/motivation floodgates to 1.25 next time.
4 Maybe breakthrough is being prevented by repeating mistakes - time for "what if the opposite....etc"
BB good thinking, 100k is a long way solid food and salty things rather than sweet are worth experimenting with. Jurek's book has some ideas.
The bad news in that in a really long race you need to start thinking about places and possible sprint finishes while there's 10-15 miles to go. This hurts.
Philip_M_Jones wrote (see)
The general advice on these type of sessions is to try to be as even as possible, so the last same as the first. Looks to me like you are doing each one slower than the last so you over-cooked it early on. All 4 at 6:30 would make the session far more valuable. I wanted to run them in the 6:20-6:25 ballpark really. Agreed I overdid the 1st one, got the second about right, and paid for my exuberance by the time the last rolled round. They need to be more even, and I would hope that in a few weeks they will be given improved fitness. You're right though; far too much variation.
I wanted to run them in the 6:20-6:25 ballpark really. Agreed I overdid the 1st one, got the second about right, and paid for my exuberance by the time the last rolled round. They need to be more even, and I would hope that in a few weeks they will be given improved fitness. You're right though; far too much variation.
I think there are a few NI based runners on here, so if you are doing the Larne Half, come and say hello at the start. I've entered it as I think the Bath Half (2nd March) is going to come a bit too soon for me to have reached full fitness, so the extra nearasdammit 3 weeks will be much appreciated. And I can catch up with some Belfast friends and meet their new baby!
PS: v much hope the race organisers are being honest when they describe it as flat on the RW website.
Quick question on Garmins. My 410 appears to be consistently out on distance by 0.1 of a mile for every 5 miles. My 15 miler on Saturday measured 15.3 on both Gmap and MapMyRun (although these sites probably use the same mapping data...)
I've been sad enough to map out a 400m track on Gmap (satelite view) to test accuracy and it appears to be spot on. When running with two pals, their Garmins bleep a mile lap several seconds before my watch. This can give a slightly false impression when doing mile reps and all runs in general but I guess as it's going longer, it will benefit me more in the end.
Garmin state a 2% error tolerance in their gadgets but I do find this annoying. Does anyone else have this issue?
Joolska - The hill profile for larne and other Northern Ireland halfs is in this link if it works , Larne has a big hill at midway looking at the profile . I havent ran it yet so couldnt say how bad it is but looks like over a mile climb . It was postponed last year due to very bad snow for the first time ever from what I remember.
Abbers - maybe do the reps on the same route so you can try to run the same distance on each (but ease back a bit on the pace too). Might just be me but I pace races to feel, if its a 1/2 I run at a pace that I reckon feels about 1/2 pace and ask myself the question after a mile or two "can I maintain this for the rest of the route", if the answer is "not sure " then its the right pace. Same applies at 10M, 10k etc you should get to 1/2 way in most races wondering how the fck you are going to run the same distance again.
I think that breakthrough runs are hard to manufacture / plan for. They just happen sometimes when you least expect it - for example the first time I broke 1:30 for a HM (after several tries) I knocked out a 1:22. The stars just align sometimes and you find yourself feeling good and running with a well paced group. Not looking at the watch seems to help too. If you feel good on the day just run a bit harder and see what happens (probably not the best advice for a first marathon though!).
Gul, Abbers, yes I have more hills than I know what to do with. You are welcone to visit and take your share.
Spinning this morning and tonight was my first foray into speed work in months - 6miles with 6x30sec fartlek (ranged between 7mm (!) and 5:20 (more encouraging)). Groin is still a bit niggly but definitely improving slowly.
Even better news, I had time to write my plan for the next 11 weeks leading up to my 50miler - unfortunately the longest run will be around 18 if I'm sensible - someone is gonna have a bad case of Tuesday legs in late March!
run logged on Jantastic - that's 50% for the week - c'mon team!
SlokeyJoe wrote (see)
If you feel good on the day just run a bit harder and see what happens (probably not the best advice for a first marathon though!).
If you feel good on the day just run a bit harder and see what happens (probably not the best advice for a first marathon though!).
I did that in my first marathon.
Lol - me too - happy vomity memories of crossing that finishing line
In fact I've done that on 8/9 of my marathons - guess which was my PB.....
jd11 - Stick around on here and you will get some good advice and motivation.
More good miles Gul. What sort of mileage are you running now?
That is an excellent run Ant. 5m @HMP at this point is very good going.
Inverse tapering gone mad there Badbark. Sounds like an excellent adventure though.
Good speedy stuff there Slokey, Abbers & SB.
Abbers - On the pacing for a HM I would be trying to find my pace from training runs (if the HMP is your A-race). Fast finish longer runs where you increase the paces will help you build speed endurance and help you keep your pace in the latter stages. If you find a pace that you think you would struggle to run for 13 miles I would start at then and then as TR says "ask yourself the question". I always try to start off 5-10sec per mile quicker than I want to finish and hope I can keep it going and then push on at the end. Hasn't failed so far as the body is often stronger than you think.
SB - Garmins are never going to 100% accurate. I run the same 1st mile every Sunday and it is always slightly different week to week. I've given up thinking about it now.
Double day for me (both logged on Jantastic). 10.3 easy miles this morning and another 3.2 easy tonight. Legs felt very heavy after Mrs H convinced me to try a body balance class last night. It showed how little stretching I do as I have some weird aches today!!
Martin - Obviously, what counts as HMP now is a good 20-30 seconds slower per mile than I'd hope for in a race in a month-six weeks' time. Good Jantastic work, btw!
SB - That's the way they are, and as Martin says, don't worry too much about it.
Abbers - Another question you could ask yourself is "Do I want to feel comfortable, or do I want a decent time I can look back on and be proud of?"
Hurrah, first run of the week done, and I've found somewhere to do some longer runs as well later in the week (albeit lots of laps). Today I just did some hill reps on the road outside the hotel - 2 x 4 down & up on a seriously steep hill, way more than I would ever usually train on or even run up very often, so it was seriously tough. Only just over 2 miles in total, but barely averaging 10 minute miles up the hill and seriously slowing on the last reps. Ouch!
well that's me done my "hellish" session for the week! 5 miles with 7 x 800m, minute rest in-between sets! I had to do it on the treadmill again as the doc said I had to watch out for my knee. IT band in rubbing the bone apparently! making for some not so nice pain when running down hills. Fine going up though???
anyway 6 @ 3:00 and last one slightly faster @ 2:56. all at 2% incline. Knee felt fine.
I love doing this workout on the old railway line but would have been a long way to hop home!
back at work this week and the days just fly in! roll on tomorrows run
SJ - is that the Hanson Ultra Plan for running 50 miles, with an 18M being the longest run. I thoroughly approve
Breakthroughs - I was going to say I have little to add as I'm only 2 years into running so benefited from the early gains; but that got me thinking that I keep pinging the sub80 HM and never quite reaching it. My best results have come unexpectedly. When I look back everything came together seamlessly on the day and some things will always be out of your control. As TR says, reviewing after a few miles usually tells a lot.
Seems like Tuesday is the day for some pace from Ant, Abber, SB, R26 and SJ. I joined in with some 6x800 with 400 jog within a 10 mile session. Pace was prescribed between 5k and 10k and came out as 5:35 (Treadmill for me).
Hardcore hill reps from BOTF and a double from MH. Jantastic must be looking good for the team.
R26 take good care to get the ITB solved, Unless the cause is addressed it will only get worse as the training load gets heavier. I had a bad dose of this on my right knee early on. A sports physio and lots of glute/TFL strengthening sorted me out.
Gym was full of new years resolutions and pens signing 1 year contracts, The sooner they are broken the better
Martin - Apologies for the delay in responding to you re London. I did it as my 1st ever marathon last year and it was a truly memorable day. I would like to do it again sometime soon.
BOTF - I know what you mean, I am heading out to Tenerife in Feb after a lovely winter break there last year and some of the hills totally broke me last time but it's good training, enjoy!
Some serious sessions going down today!
Ant that's very positive that one!
Minni - Are you still on the wagon?
Re breakthroughs Abbers - I did my first half two years ago and jogged aorund with a friend in 1:41 and then got a bit more serious and the next one was 1:30:30, a few months back I did the Autumn one here in Jeresy and cracked the sub 1:30 on a much tougher course than my 1:30 one. My strategy on the day was to run 6:50 pace or under for most of it, obviously allowing for a tough 3 mile hilly section but by the time I hit half way I knew I could hold that pace comfortably for the next 6 miles or so and covered the last mile in under 6:2x to finish with 55 seconds to spare. I think I could have run a couple of minutes faster had I really gone for it but what mattered was that I cracked the 1:30 and who knows I might have messed it up had I been a bit greedier and finished in 1:30 or worse. Know I know I can do under 1:30 the target for the next one will be 1:27 or so. Are you planning on racing one soon?
6 miles tonight at a slow pace 8:07, got caught in a torrential downpour with 2.5 miles to go. Can't ever remember running for so long in such heavy rain. New shoes well and truly broken in now.
Abbers - dont go off to fast for a half, I broke 1:30 last year by going of at 6:45 which gives a tiny bit spare for the inevitable slowdown in the last 2 miles or so and just scraped in .
If you go off at 1:25 pace there is virtually no chance of a pb if you are in 1:30 shape but a big chance of a very bad race so for now get some tempo's in at 6:45 pace or as close as you can get if the half is some way off to see how you cope.
Ant - going really well at the moment.Abbers - I'm sure the pacing will come in time. My plan for bagging the sub 90 was relatively conservative, but on the day, the early miles turned out a fair bit faster so I just stuck with it. Then again, it was my first HMin over 3 years...SB - good reps.SJ - there'something satisfying about devising your own schedule, isn't there?Martin - Good double - take it easy with those balance classes! This week will be 62 miles for me. Plan is to peak at 64. This is all new territory to me.BOTF - well done on tackling that hill.Rich - cracking interval session.GM - new shoes given a good baptism then.4 mile recovery run @ 8:59 m/m d&d.
Some quick running there from Slokey & AR. Good miles from Martin, GM & Gul too.
That hill sounds delightful BOTF!
Good reps R26, but take care of that knee/ITB.
Ha - it would seem my thinly veiled hypothetical question has swiftly been seen through by the thread Not really much different advice to what I've been trying to do for the last 2 years then; tempos at goal race pace, set off slightly quicker than needed (but not much quicker; 6:45) and try to hold on in the last couple of miles. It's that last bit I have the problem with; running greater volume and longer long runs in mara training will hopefully resolve the endurance issue. Milton Keynes on March 9th will be revealing. And Ant - my HMs are never comfortable! But thanks all for the input. Just wondered how others had done it when they made sudden jumps in times.
Breakthrough runs - for me came from changes in training. I added more variety of pacing (5-6m tempo, LSR with a long section at MP, 6x600-800, strides) instead of mostly easy pace running and limited intervals. Can't claim it was my idea - I simply followed P&D. Thereafter there are race strategies that others have said - for me I'm more calculating and start at a pace that my training indicates I could sustain more or less to the end.
SJ - a lot of people think you have to do substantially more distance in training to do an ultra versus a marathon. I don't fully believe that myself, just a little more is needed on top of the long run and more MLRs. Conditioning counts more in the end so if you've got quality in the training and good pace control in the race then you should be alright. What is the 18 mile max long run driven by - is it just injury avoidance?
I was also doing balance training last night. (Officially) I made my son 2 balance boards, one with a roller at the bottom the other with a half ball to improve his proprioception as he had a review by a health professional that said he was poor in this regard. I have to agree with MartinH and have to say it was rather challenging. If I can't balance well on 2 legs on a wobble board, how can I balance well on one leg when I run?
Gul, in the nicest possible way, can I ask if you are not too close to peak mileage already? I would expect the peak to be 6-3 weeks prior to the marathon and assuming you are 12-15 weeks away from your marathon I would have thought you would be doing a lower percentage of peak volume.
7miles with 10x strides yesterday. I've got pretty much the same session planned today as Rich did yesterday 6x800m except that I'm a slacker and take 2:30 recovery
Enjoying the 'hypothetical' sub 90 talk. I have a HM next weekend.
I had a big HM breakthrough a couple of years ago. Got to halfway (setting a new 10k pb) and thought I know I can do this for another few miles so carried on and ended up with a 4 minute PB. However, I then stuck to that time for 2 years and I've lost count of how many times I've run 1:32.xx on all kinds of courses. I then knocked over a minute off that at GNR, 1:31:21 this year.
So BM is a week on Sunday. Last time I ran there was 2012 (2013 cancelled) in very windy conditions and finished 20s slower than my then PB at 1:33. I'd really like to get under 1:30 and have been feeling quite confident but had a bad run last night, which has knocked my confidence.
Its so much easier to knock chunks off a marathon than a minute or so off a shorter distance.
Gerard - yes still on the wagon.
18m as the longest LR for a 50 miler? Fine if not going for a time, but not convinced otherwise. Esp. if it were a debut over 50m. Conditioning makes a difference as noted. Also pace selection, there's an optimum pace on the day for each person, getting it (and kit selection) right from the start makes life easy and the miles fly by. No question that SJ is made of strong stuff and will overcome all obstacles.
Minni - I struggled with 1.3X for a long time, then scraped 1.29.45, then surprisingly 1.25 and 1.24 soon after. You can do this.
Minni: one bad run doesn't mean you have become a bad runner. My last set of mile reps before Frankfurt were slower than the same session before what was then FLM in 2007. But I ran 8.5 minutes faster in 2013. You can break 90. Keep the faith!
Minni - If I can run under 90 minutes then you certainly can. Your main focus seems to be marathon training and you obviously have great endurance but I reckon with a slight adjustment to your training i.e. more speedwork and race the shorter distances more frequently then it's only a matter of time. A friend of mine who like you is much better at the marathon distance than me (3:15:30) was stuck on 1:34 and last November she ran 1:29:58! I ran 1:29:05 in the same race but no difference really it's still 1:29! I'm impressed with your abstinence, is this going to carry on for the rest of January? I've also not touched a drop in a week, however, I do long for my friend from burgundy!
Minni - You going to have a minni taper to give it a fair chance? I have a half on the 19th and have shuffled my runs to accommodate it. I do plan to taper and throw some lunchtime TR sessions (30 fast/30 slow) just to keep the legs honest. Good luck!! I am also enjoying the HM pace strategy talk - I usally start off slower for the first two and build up. Might try something different this time!
GM - Abstinence? I am thinking about it currently...
Joolska wrote (see)
one bad run doesn't mean you have become a bad runner.
one bad run doesn't mean you have become a bad runner.
I know not aimed at me, but exactly what I needed to hear so thank you Jools.
Reason: dreadful lunchtime session. I planned 6x800m which in better times I would run at 6:00 to 6:10 pace. Given my recent mediocrity, I planned to run at 6:30 to 6:40 pace. Barely made it for the first 4 and the last 2 reps tumbled above 6:40 pace. Dreadful really. Anyway I'll keep plugging away until the end of January and some improvement must surely come.
Currently abstaining myself. Not sure how long it would last
Gerald - don't be too impressed! It all went horribly wrong on day 1 with my falling off the wagon before it got going, however, I'm been good since.
Thanks for all your HM comments (Poacher, Jools, GM, Menn)
GM Shorter races would definitely be good for me but its just not possible living where I do. I've got a 100 mile round trip to my nearest parkrun, which I'm trying to do once a month. But I have been doing lots of sessions and getting most of them right.
Menn - yes I've only got a 16 this weekend and backing off a bit next week.
Start fast/slow debate. I started off fast at Redcar feeling confident after GNR, which I didn't feel was flat out. First 5 or 6 were fine but then hit a strong headwind for about 3 miles that I just wasn't strong enough to fight. Pulled it back in the last few miles but finished about 40 seconds slower than GNR. This has put me off going out fast although I don't know how much of that was the wind.