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Good to see target cards on the table Speedy...
Rich - excuses in early, that's the spirit
After 8yrs of VLM I am always caught out at the last turn outside Buck House - it always seems to be quite a way from there to the finish line. Does anyone know how far it really is? And thus how much time one has to have in hand at the turn in order to hit target time. It's heartbreaking to see the line at last and know that one is a few seconds too late.
Lorenzo, best wear shades in case he's sporting that orange mankini again....
OK then....PMJ could your list meld seamlessly into this? If anyone CBA to sort into start colours etc, feel free. Shift+rtn to satisfy spacing police.
PMJ - 2.4?CC2 - 2.59.59 Literatin - sub 3:05 Lorenzo, Ant - sub 3:10 Minni - 3:12 Bike It - 3:14:59 Abbers - TBAPoacher - go slow, sub 3.20 for Comrades B seedingAR - get past 16 miles
Good luck all round to those in action on April 6th, the action is hotting up.
PMJ - good to see you're following MT's advice and not tapering too hard! Good running. Interesting interview this week about nutrition.Leslie - nice plodding. What's the plan for the HM?Poacher - glad you are still being entertained at the gym to relieve the monotony.GM - good listening to the body. Get well soon.6JT - good news, but just be very careful.Speedy - that would be just amazing. Rich - nice recovery run!6 miles with 4x400m @10k pace for me this morning to try and dial into race pace. I am thinking about changing my Jantastic prediction from 39:59 to 39:30, which would be a 1 min PB. Everyone else seems much more confident than me that it would be a much more realistic target. Still not convinced, but we'll see.
Gul - go for it. I reckon you'll surprise yourself!
Poacher - not sure exactly how far it is, but I'd say more than 100m and less than 200m. Not helpful at all, I know! For me, it's the distance between the x metres to go markers that always seems to take an eternity, especially between 800m (phew, only 1/2 mile to go) and 600m (OMG, was that really only 200m, I've got another 3 of them to do before I can collapse).
Planned 10 miles this morning, no watch, no Garmin - just tried to judge MP. Ended up doing 10.3 at 7:08 pace. Nice.
marrows wrote (see)
This was the key advice of a dear friend with whom I used to run a lot, and who died too early: 'find a nice bum and follow it'.
This was the key advice of a dear friend with whom I used to run a lot, and who died too early: 'find a nice bum and follow it'.
Trying to tread a thin line here, but the one thing to look forward to as I get older and slow down is that the bums get nicer. My (very crude as in rough) theory is that my taste in posteriors aligns with ladies who are neither super fast nor super slow.
Gul, you are way ahead on MT, I just caught up with parkrun and will start MT today. Taper does look a bit odd but that is down to the LSR juggle. I have done most of my LSRs midweek so they fall a week apart, but I did last week's on Sunday and so this one came soon after. After this, it will almost fall over a cliff and next week is 4,5,6,7,8 and 13, but I will have to make the 8 into an 11 to race a mile on Friday.
The list on http://tinyurl.com/sub315vlm is hard to copy and paste. I show it below with names removed to protect the innocent: I just personally find it odd to start a conversation with "Hi , are you (insert odd nickname here)?" No need to put names in if you don't want to.
Final double digit run of the Brighton campaign sorted last night. Ran 10 miles with my mate. We chatted all the way and did a very easy 7.53 pace and my HR average was only 143. Even though it was easy, I was still disappointed with the time but night runnnig is weird, perseived effort always seems higher. Mustn't let this affect me as I have low confiednce on my ability at the moment.
I have to mention my very own gym fail from a few years ago. I was on a treadmill at the swanky Foxhills Country Club, in Surrey (it's posh there) talking to a work colleague on the machine to my left. I was so engrossed in the conversation that I lost concentration and 'caught an edge'.
My left foot missed the belt, hit the side mounting and from that moment on, I was a passenger. My arms flailed forward in an unsuccessful attempt to gain me some sort of balance, my legs buckled and contorted like a pair of cranes in an earthquake. The belt continued to spin in total disregard of my plight. There would only be one outcome and this Bambi on ice impersonator knew it.
My balance was overwhelmed and my 6ft 1in, 13st frame slam dunked onto the unyielding spinning black rubber, making a banging sound as loud as throwing a breeze block into an empty skip. That got the attention of the other gym users.
The Dreadmill took the blow very well and relentlessly carried on, shooting me out of the back of the machine like a letter in a postal sorting office. In true cartoon fashion, my body lay prone to the rear of the machine with my chin left bouncing up and down on the still spinning black belt.
The whole gym appeared to stop and stare. my colleague announced that he would have hit the emergency stop but he was too busy "laughing my nuts off".
I was left with a grazed chin massively deflated pride and deep embarrassment.
But we can laugh about it now!!
I'm filling in my "running time" by watching running documentaries and the like on you tube. If it is downhill at Comrades for Poacher, then here is a tip I picked up while scraping the barrel of YouTube.
Ultra runner Michael Arnstein the Fruitatian (bear with me), toughens up his quads by attaching an EMS system to his quads whilst sat in the office. So Poacher, my advise is to get a Ronco Slendertone type system, and attach to your quads. One hour per day prescribed by the fruitarian.
The fruitarian also recommends the use of rocks as toilet paper - that one applies to all the Sub 3:15ers (actually he explained that one away quite well)
Poacher - good dreadmill running and more excellent #gymfails.
6JT - your own #gymfail sounds like a painful experience! Glad your current injury issues are improving though.
PMJ - luminous gloves all round for April 13th then? I've updated the spreadsheet now I've checked my number. Still have a range of targets though; 9 @ PMP at lunch will be the deciding factor I think. Too much indecision and worry at the moment to be good for me.
Marrows - good mantras. Sorry to hear about your friend though.
Leslie - so what's the HM target?
Rich - keep calm!
CC2 - be great to see you (& Lit) go sub-3.
Gul - you've been flying in training. What's to lose by having a crack at something a little faster in a 10k? Go for it.
Lorenzo - shaping up nicely. You should go well if that's MP.
Sporty B - another excellent #gymfail! Well done on the 10. If 7:53 feels easy with a low heartrate, then you should be well set for 30 secs quicker in a mara.
Gul- 39:30 should be well in range for you , my half mara plan after last weeks threshold tester is to go out at 6:40 m/mile and hold on as long as I can and hope its not too windy or that with hardly any taper I wont blow up
Lorenzo-speedy run, the garmin must have been holding you back .
SB-dangerous things dreadmills , I try to avoid them.
Also ran- Rocks for toilet paper , easier to find than andrex I suppose on the run, watch for sharp edges though.
3 x 9 min miles this morm , knee has freed of again so all good , 15 days straight so a nicely timed rest day tomorrow.
Abbers -I'm hoping for somewhere in the around 1:28 but who knows what will happen.
Poacher wrote (see)
When Paula Radcliffe broke the WR she hit the turn at 2:14:48 and the finish in 2:15:25
By my reckoning that's pretty close to 200mtrs
Yep I'd agree its about 200m. Last year I remember seeing the time as 3:15.xx on the finish clock and thinking I want to cross the line before that says 3:16. My time for crossing the line was 3:15:59!!
Nice gym fail SB - did make me laugh. All this VLM talk is making me sad I am not there this year
Gul - give it a good rattle.
I have avoided becoming fixated by all things Paris marathon to the point I actually know bugger all about it. Time to open the box me thinks.
SB - Very funny #gymfail yarn. Re-assuring to know you can rely on your work colleagues when you are in a tight spot. Banish those negative thoughts about your pace, I bet it's just nerves and
Gul - Is your 10k a training run or an actual race? Either way I agree with others who say that you will comfortably go sub 40.
I am really miffed, my old enemy plantar fasciitis has really come back to hit me hard and the last 3 days it has been constantly sore. No running again today and XC might be a DNS. I'll give it another 48hrs and decide but am disappointed to be missing important training sessions I had planned for this week. 10k could be scuppered too if things don't improve and I have been waiting a year for this race. If I was religious in anyway I would be praying right now.
Gerard - Go and see a podologist, they'll sort you out in no time. Good luck - no need to seek spiritual advice/help just yet, I shouldn't think.
Sporty B/ Tarts/ Poacher.- If God had meant us to run on treadmills, he'd have etc etc and so on.
8 miles in bright sunshine today, with 5 @ 7:10mm. I spent the whole time wondering how much of this niggle exists and how much is in my head. 40-60, probably.
Leslie - glad the knee's feeling better, and a nice target for your HM. Good luck!
Menn - ah yes, but you get to experience Paris in the spring. Sounds pretty good to me.
GM - sorry to hear about your injury woes. Hope things improve quickly. Ant's advice could be prudent.
Ant - a run to regain some confidence. Certainly with 2 weeks still to go, you should be fighting fit by London.
So, 9 @ PMP for me at lunch as a final test to determine my pacing plans for mara debut. The 9 came in at 1:06:50, so roughly 7:26 average, and felt sustainable. Maybe not for 26.2, but I have no idea what is! I'm still tempted to be a little conservative on my first attempt, rather than going for broke with a 3:15 target first up. On that basis, while 3:15 remains a dream target, 3:20 is a more realistic one. Think I'll start out in the 7:30s, hopefully get to 20 miles and see what's left (if anything).
Abbers - I think you may well pleasantly surprise yourself come 13th April. Time to nail your colours to the mast, on the list, anyway. be careful with doing too many test runs - open that oven too soon or too often to get a peek, and the cake will sink as sure as eggs is, you know, eggs.
Mennania - Just for you
Abbers, pace looks fine to me, a big difference between a 9 at lunchtime and thousands on race day. People seldom get faster, you don't want to scream off but also don't be over conservative, think Goldilocks.
Afternoon all.... I've been a lurker on here for a few months now, I too am doing London in a couple of weeks and lots of these stories ring true for me too. I was looking at sub 3:15 but after a few injuries of late (SI joint issue, mild plantar problem) I'm looking at re-assessing and maybe going for 3:20 which will beat my previous PB of 3:23:02 from 2010 VLM.
I have a question regarding fuelling. I've tried to do some research on the net but can't seem to find a definitive answer. I want to know how many carbs I need to fuel me for a 3:20 finish bearing in mind I'm a 182lb runner. My previous experience was pretty painful and I'm sure it was down to poor fuelling and fluid uptake...
Please share your endless knowledge with someone who would welcome the advice... Many thanks!!
I have previously 'monstered' the carb loading with 2 days eating approx 9 - 10g carb per Kg bodyweight, and then the day before getting back to normal. This post may be more useful to you (from the asics Sub3 thread):
RUTH MCKEAN wrote (see)
I have had some queries about should you deplete your muscles of carbs prior to carb loading; the short answer to this is that this is no longer the recommendation. The carb loading theory where you deplete carbs and then increase again for 3 days before a race is called the “classic approach” (7 day plan where you deplete over the first 3-4 days by doing some very hard running whilst reducing carb intake to quite low levels - this makes most people tired and irritable and does not allow for a proper taper due to the hard/prolonged sessions you need to do to deplete carbs so close to the marathon. After this depletion stage you eat a really high carb diet for 3 days: 8-10grams per kilogram body weight). This classic approach was really big in the late 60's & 70's but it has come to light that by reducing carb intake like this you actually down regulated/reduced the body’s ability to uptake carbs in the days before marathon (not ideal!). This research was also done on untrained runners. Then in the 1980’s research showed you can increase carbs to the around the same level as the classic approach by just eating a high carb diet with rest/taper for a few days before racing. More recent research has shown that in well trained runners they could increase carbs significantly with only 24 hours; if eat enough so a planned approach is necessary. For most I would suggest 2 days especially when not used a proper carb load plan before. For someone like Roger 24hours may be sufficient although he can eat as if he is training for days 3&2 prior to marathon then do his carb load the day before (day 1). However before carb load starts you should consider tapering down your nutrition when the miles start to reduce. Cut back on all snacks and portions of main meals. So for example if your snack was a 2 sliced bread jam sandwich and a banana you may reduce this to 1 slice of bread and banana, if have 2 slices of malt loaf reduce to 1, if have cereal and two pieces of toast for breakfast reduce to one slice of toast and slightly reduce cereal, reduce rice and pasta by a couple of spoonful’s, cut out all extra treats (after the marathon you can have these…it is only few weeks). It is during taper you should eat really well, little and often to support your lower mileage weeks but at the same time making sure no weight is gained. If having supper before bed, reduce by half. But be sensible if feel physical hungry you may have cut down too much but hungry from the stomach…. not the head!
I have had some queries about should you deplete your muscles of carbs prior to carb loading; the short answer to this is that this is no longer the recommendation. The carb loading theory where you deplete carbs and then increase again for 3 days before a race is called the “classic approach” (7 day plan where you deplete over the first 3-4 days by doing some very hard running whilst reducing carb intake to quite low levels - this makes most people tired and irritable and does not allow for a proper taper due to the hard/prolonged sessions you need to do to deplete carbs so close to the marathon. After this depletion stage you eat a really high carb diet for 3 days: 8-10grams per kilogram body weight). This classic approach was really big in the late 60's & 70's but it has come to light that by reducing carb intake like this you actually down regulated/reduced the body’s ability to uptake carbs in the days before marathon (not ideal!). This research was also done on untrained runners. Then in the 1980’s research showed you can increase carbs to the around the same level as the classic approach by just eating a high carb diet with rest/taper for a few days before racing. More recent research has shown that in well trained runners they could increase carbs significantly with only 24 hours; if eat enough so a planned approach is necessary. For most I would suggest 2 days especially when not used a proper carb load plan before. For someone like Roger 24hours may be sufficient although he can eat as if he is training for days 3&2 prior to marathon then do his carb load the day before (day 1).
However before carb load starts you should consider tapering down your nutrition when the miles start to reduce. Cut back on all snacks and portions of main meals. So for example if your snack was a 2 sliced bread jam sandwich and a banana you may reduce this to 1 slice of bread and banana, if have 2 slices of malt loaf reduce to 1, if have cereal and two pieces of toast for breakfast reduce to one slice of toast and slightly reduce cereal, reduce rice and pasta by a couple of spoonful’s, cut out all extra treats (after the marathon you can have these…it is only few weeks). It is during taper you should eat really well, little and often to support your lower mileage weeks but at the same time making sure no weight is gained. If having supper before bed, reduce by half. But be sensible if feel physical hungry you may have cut down too much but hungry from the stomach…. not the head!
So I am reading that as 1 to 2 days carb load at 8 - 10g carb per Kg bodyweight.
Eddie: I was 189lbs on the scales this mroning, so we're not too far apart. I've read many articles about energy intake but there seems complicated and there are too many variables, it's about what works for you. Last year I got it spot on in Paris and will be doing the same, if not better this year with regards to fuel intake.
My plan for Brighton next week is to gel at 7, 11, 15, 19 and 23 miles. I will have a 6th gel on me as backup.I will start the race with a Lucozade sport bottle which I'll have ditched after around 5 miles.I'll take water on as and when I need it. They're handing out bottles of water (12 stations) and Gatorade (5 stations). I will always have a bottle of something in my hand so I can sip regularly without overloading.
Not missing a gel (I use SIS Go gels) is vital. I hit the wall in London 2006 and vowed never to hit it again. the above works for ME, you have to work out what works for you, there is no catch-all formula as everyone is different (my opinion, anyway).
I have trained with gels but only ever had two of them during a 20 miler. That works as I'm going slower but by not using so many, my body should benefit from the more regular boost during a marathon, I am going quicker, so will need it of course.
Ant/Abbers - Thanks both, if it persists I may just do that.
OK - I answered about carbs pre race. During the race I do an SiS gel per 30mins at 30,60,90,120 mins. I may take another at 150mins if I feel I can stomach it.
SB said "Not missing a gel is vital" - not for everyone itseddie - the 16 maras I did between 2:46 & 2:59 were all before gels were invented, and some of those maras had only water available. Even since I became a slow(er) git, I've never had one. Pay proper attention to the pre-race carb intake; this together with sips of Luco on the course will see you through (if the training's done of course). Good luck, anyway, and welcome . . . .
Ant / PMJ - thanks for the replies. Ant, this and the weekend's 16 are the final significant sessions of the campaign, so more than 2 weeks out, this is the last mara paced run I'll be doing. I won't be opening the oven door again, don't worry about that! I'm already paranoid about not leaving my best runs in training 20 miles in around 2:30 and then see what happens seems like reasonable middle ground.
Welcome Itseddie; can't add much beyond what other (more experienced) threadites have already said. I'll be using the Luco Sport on the course, and have 4 gels with me; painful half marathon experiences have shown me that I need to take on fuel & liquid or I suffer. Sporty B's assertion that you have to work out what works best for you is right though; there are plenty of others around the forums who won't be taking on nearly as much, and are quite happy with that.
At Buck Hyse there is a double corner. If you recall, the Victoria Statue is on a big roundabout. Just before the first of the double corners is a mile marker, and it says "365 yards to go".
I know because on my first hard attempt to get 3:15 I got to that very spot, checked my watch and saw 3:15 tick past. My heart sank, all energy drained, and the legs collapsed. As I slumped over the barrier someone gave me a drink of water, and I eventually crossed the line in 3:15 and 90 seconds.
Moral: Don't look at yer feckin watch! Wait for the clocks to haul into sight.
Hi Eddie !
GM, take care of that plantar fasciitis. I ran through it for a long time and it severely affected my training for over a year. Not good. Get stretching those calves and hamstrings.
I've arrived in Paris and the forecast for the race on Saturday is 19 deg which might be a shock. Don't think I'll be running this race in my coat.
I'm not bothering with carb loading per se. Just eating well and staying relaxed. My best performances have been on the back of wine and curries when not stressing about anything so I might as well carry on with that.
Abbers - how did you feel at the end of the 9M, if you could have done another couple of miles then you are pretty much at MP. Spurred on by Minni doing 12 at MP the other night, I remembered doing 10 av 6:36 in a training run about this time last year (and then ran 6:40s pretty comfortably all the way at VLM). Y'day I tried the same run and although I struggled at first it came in at av 6:33 and I could have done a couple more. I think the early struggle is due to the shock of MP at 6am on a very cold morning (only 2M w/u), and not having run any MP stuff, so all in all a good tick in the box. My legs didnt like it much though, but thats not a surprise I guess.
Minni wrote (see)
Eddie - as an experienced marathon runner I can say that (in my opinion) painful marathons, hitting the wall, cramps etc are mostly down to either lack of endurance, or going off too fast, or both. Gels, beet juice etc will help you along your way if all is going well but they will not correct mistakes.