Sub 3h15



  • OO-51 wrote (see)

    No running in Russia, just plenty of food and beer- worth a visit if you haven't been.

    I run a lot in Russia when there, where exactly in Russia are you? Big country: there is a train that takes 2 weeks to go from side to side: about as fast as you can cross London today.

  • OO54OO54 ✭✭✭

    St Petersberg PMJ, I don't think I've seen a single runner on the streets this visit. I rarely run on business trips these days unless it's Paris where I used to live and feel at home. Beer and food is the safer optionimage

  • JoolskaJoolska ✭✭✭

    I've run in St. Petersburg, OO: up and down Nevsky Prospekt and then round the square at the back of the Hermitage.  It bemused the babushkas sweeping the streets!

    5k for me tonight in a rather sluggish 19.20.  Perhaps spending the best part of a week in Germany drinking beer and playing the violin wasn't the best race preparation...

  • Gul DarrGul Darr ✭✭✭

    SB - very tidy dreadmill 5k.
    Badbark - d&d = done and dusted. I haven't played Dungeons and Dragons for over 25 years! 'Not tapering' is a bit of an understatement - very impressive. Good luck this weekend.
    GM - yes, you beat me to it. Good news on parkrun.
    Speedy - get well soon.
    OO / PMJ / Joolska - would love to go to St Petersburg, but I think Finland is the closest I've been!
    4 mile recovery run to round off April. 250 miles in total, which is my highest ever. Should pass 1000 miles so far this year on Saturday image

  • BadbarkBadbark ✭✭✭

    Gul – Well done on your highest ever mileage.

    Speedy – Get well soon!

    Jools – Thats a decent 5k due to your beer build-up!

    I ran 11 miles this morning all done at around 8 m/m pace. Due to the low carb and no caffeine diet this was a bit physically and mentally taxing. My HR was very low but so were my energy levels. I look forward to lunch time tomorrow when I start my carbo loading.image

    I’ve run 380 miles this month which I think is a new high. This included back to back 26/30 and 27/35 mile runs.

  • OO-51, St. Petersburg is barely Russia. Very European city, lovely architecture. I need to go back as I want to visit the Hermitage but have not had an empty full day and to do less would be an injustice. 

  • Gul - Top mileage there. I have managed 120 this month including race day.

    Badbark - Thats an eyewatering amount of miles imageI never look forward to carbo loading - but good luck with itimage

    CC2 - get well wishes being sent your way.

    Been away and come back to book my local races and they are all full! This running lark is getting quite popular. Am looking to push on and get a back to back marathon in for the first time and capatilise on current fitness levels. Have been told theres a super flat mara along Rhyl prom late June. Any particular schedule anyone can suggest that  I should be looking at for back to back marathons? I think P&D may do one.

  • Mennania - The early editions of P&D certainly did have a multiple marathon plan but can't comment on the later one.

    I really should start to try to understand WAVA as there seems to be more and more chat about it! No clue at the moment - idiots guide anyone? PMJ?

    Badbark - love your taper madness cure. Sounds a bit like my recent training plans - ie omit any sensibleness from them!image

    SBD - Welcome back - it sounds like you've had a very similar experience to me - work-life-training balance getting in the way. More on that in a bit.

    Speedy - hope you're feeling better, at least the cold arrived now and not just before VLM. If I've not said already, well done at VLM - you're a prime example of how hard work and perseverance does pay off with real progression of results.

    Gul and Badbark - cracking mileage records!

    It's that time of the month again isn't it.... Mileage logs. Not a lot to report here as only just got back in the game, with a measly 40 miles logged...

    But getting back to it, slowly...

  • BirchBirch ✭✭✭

    Well done on the miles , Gul - month & ytd - are you feeling confident a month or so out from your race?

    Badbark - likewise with the mileage - really looking forward to hearing of your exploits this weekend  . . . .

    8 miles here today to record 89.2 for April - consisting mainly of last taper week prior to Manchester, then recovering . . . .

  • So, as promised last week, now that the VLM buzz is easing off a bit I'll tell you about what has been a great Mojo restorer for me.

    It was my birthday in March and Mrs Fin decided that my running was going proper stagnant (I really wasn't doing much) and so she decided she'd send me to get a "fitness test". She didn't really know what it would involve but she'd heard me talking about them in the past, so she googled.

    Basically, I went to the University of Westminster and was connected up to some fancy kit to run a progression run on a treadmill.

    It was great!

    And very revealing. clearly I am the answer to "who ate all the pies" and I didn't know it.

    Without going into the results too much and boring everyone, it has highlighted for me both strengths and current weaknesses, and most importantly it has given me the kick up the rear that I needed to get back on it.

    The positive from it was that, despite actually doing very little over the last 6 months in the way of training my VO2max is still quite good - coming in at 57, which I'm quite pleased with considering, but the downside is that the test showed that I don't  currently have the basic cardio/aerobic conditioning to back that up. Which is unsurprising seeing as I’ve not really run any further that a few miles each day. I was categorised as “Novice” in that area  - a little humbling….

    But it’s all fixable though. They have given me some very specific HR zones and paces to train at, which I've never done before so it's going to be an interesting experiment now to see if what they have advised will work.

    And I need to lose some weight too. Obviously.

    If I do all that they have recommended then it seems a good marathon time (maybe sub3) might be on the cards in the future. The results actually point to much faster but I'm a bit sceptical of trying to relate lab results to the real world as so many factors come to play but let’s see how we go.

    The short of it is that I'm back and raring to go! And motivated as much as I have been for a long time.


  • FINgers - that test sounds really interesting and more importantly has given you something to work on. Do you have a link for it? Great that the mojo has returned!!

    St Petersburg is my only experience of Russia - we bolted it on to a family holiday in Estonia a few years back. Without doubt the Hermitage is very impressive, as are many of the churches but I confess to being a bit disappointed with the city overall and I'm not in a hurry to go back there. 

    140 miles in April for me, an all time April high. 4.5 miles this morning with 3 fast(ish) in the middle. I say "ish" as it wasn't quite as fast as I was hoping for, so hopefully there will be some improvement in my 10K this weekend.

  • Lorenzo - I did the test here:

    They do all sorts of test and I think you get a reduction in cost if you do multiple tests at the same time - not sure on this as it was a gift...

    It was actually a lot of fun - although it does involve a section at maximal to get Max HR - and we all know how painful that can be. I did get slightly worried when they put a crash mat down behind the treadmill!!

    Good luck in the 10k at the w/e!

  • Congrats on the weekend PB Rich26. Strong running Leslie on that hilly 10 miler - a very decent time too!

    Welcome back SBD and good luck with your sub 3 attempt - a good goal to have!

    Badbark - I think you should change your name to Madbark. A marathon 2 days after a 50k Ultra takes things to a new level. Best of luck to you, just don't stop.

    GM - getting some good speed session in.

    Good dreadmiil 5k time Sporty - is there a Parkrun nearby you can do?

    Got a 3 mile PB on Sunday of 17.50 as part of a 4 x 3 mile team relay (East Midlands Livingston Relays) and we won a bronze medal for the Vet team. I think that's my first ever medal in a race. Our last runner clawed us back from 4th up to 3rd with a very speedy 16.40 leg.

  • FINgers wrote (see)


    I really should start to try to understand WAVA as there seems to be more and more chat about it! No clue at the moment - idiots guide anyone? PMJ?

    WAVA ...

    So this starts by collecting up world record data over distance, sex and age. The next thing that is done is a bit of smoothing and curve fitting and general data massage so you end up with a set of tables that is distance, sex and age. Once you have these tables, you can get the world record and then work out how a performance rates against the world record.

    So Mo Farah ran 2:08:21 for the marathon aged 31. The tables,, show that for the marathon, the open standard is 7,495 seconds (2 hours, 4:55) and the factor for a 31 year old is 1 so 2:04:55 * 1 / 2:08:21 is 97.3%.

    So if you get WAVA 100% you are equal to the world record. The WAVA figure is the percentage of the world record, so 50% WAVA means you are half the speed of the world record.

    That is all WAVA is, comparing you to the world record for your sex, age and distance.


    So the data is hard to get especially for the less common combinations, so how many VW100 marathon runners do you know? We live in a fairly liberal society but it isn't too far back that women were banned form running anything over a few hundred metres so it is going to take time for athletes who are world record holders at 20 years old to filter thorough to the higher age groups.

    The percentage thing is just arbitrary. It is as crude an approximation as you can get, so you use just one number. Of course, where the data points are close, the approximation is fair, but to compare a 20 year old female 100m sprinter to a V70 male ultra runner is stretching it.

  • AbbersAbbers ✭✭✭

    CC2 - get well soon. No racing plans interrupted I presume?

    Jools - sounds like a decent enough comeback off limited running to me. You know you'll get quicker.

    Gul - excellent monthly stats.

    BB - even more impressive stats, especially the 2 back-to-backs.

    Menn - any targets to Rhyl, or too early to predict?

    FINgers - sounds like an interesting study/experience. If it has provided focus & motivation, then job done.

    Lorenzo - I'm sure the speed is there, just waiting to be unleashed this weekend.

    KR - PB & a medal in the same event has to be classed as a good day!

    Monthly miles just over 100, topped up with a 7 last night. Over 700 for the year to date though, so well ahead of previous annual totals at the same stage.

  • I was supposed to be racing the Midlands League this weekend, but that no longer seems like a good plan. It's not a nasty cold, but enough. 

    That testing lark sounds like fun, but somewhat beyond my budget. Did you have all of those FINgers?

    Why have I never heard of the East Midlands Livingstone Relays? I don't think either of my clubs have ever participated.

  • Leslie HLeslie H ✭✭✭

    KR-must be nice to get medals.image

    FINgers-maximal hr think I got that in my last race at the end (195) what was yours ?

    CC2-get well soon,cold/flu here too and has been for nearly 2 weeks now thought I was over it and toothache yesterday image so have had 2 rest days this week already, about 5 in the last 10 days I think.

    234 miles this month been having an unscheduled mini taper before my mara taper.

  • PoacherPoacher ✭✭✭
    117 miles in April, farcically bad Comrades training. Had to change (one of three jobs) to working nights. More interesting work but for running it's absolutely bo***cks. Disaster looms, but hey.

    Very impressed by BB. Get well CC. Nice medal KR. Nice miles Leslie, Abbers, Gul.

    Welcome back SBD, TAR

    Multiple maras is a complex subject; much depends on whether one of the is an attempt at a fast one. It's easy enough to do 2 in a weekend but for PB-type performances it needs a few weeks inbetween.
  • Gul DarrGul Darr ✭✭✭

    Badbark - astonishing miles and back-to-back long runs.
    Mennania - how long is Rhyl prom?!
    FINgers - that was a cracking bithday present - sounds like you're raring to go!
    Birch - reasonably confident - just hope I haven't peaked already.
    KR - congrats on the medal - that's a fantastic 3 mile PB.
    Abbers - clocking up some good mileage this year.
    Leslie - great mileage.
    Poacher - must be very frustrating.
    11 miles with 2 x 3M efforts this morning. w/u: 8:45, 7:46, 7:13. 10k pace: 6:25, 6:21, 6:13. easy: 8:16. 10k pace: 6:28, 6:26, 6:21. w/d: 8:08.

  • BadbarkBadbark ✭✭✭

    Menn – I ran London and Belfast marathons 3 weeks apart last year and attempted to PB in both. I successfully PB’d in London with 2:56 but began to drop off the pace in Belfast by about half way. I ended up taking it a bit easier over the last 6 miles to finish in 3 hours. So as others have said it would be best to target one as a PB attempt and the other as B race or training run. P&D's double marathon schedules are as good as any.

    Fingers – Great test and good to have something to work on

    Lorenzo – Good luck in your 10k

    KR  - Excellent 3 mile PB and congrats on the medal

    Gul – That’s a either an incredible workout or you next 10k race will be a serious PB! There’s no way I could run 2 x 3 miles at my 10k pace in training. I’m usually maxed out at 4 x 1 mile at 10k pace.  I could only manage about half marathon pace with 2 x 3 mile intervals. When’s your next 10k or half marathon? Run one soon as you are in fantastic shape!

    Just 6 miles for me this morning and after 5 days on a high fat diet I’m definitely burning fat as fuel. I had much more of a spring in my step and after feeling very lethargic yesterday I feel great today. Carbo loading start later. Yippee!


  • Morning All,

    "Easy" few miles to the station this morning. A little tough to be fair but I guess it's going to be a long road back.

    PMJ - Cheers for the info on WAVA - I can't get the link you posted to work but I get the idea. Many thanks - now to break the world record...

    Speedy - Yes not cheap - I didn't do them all but a lot of them you can "take" during the same session on the machine so they give you a very sizable discount for multiple tests. I think if you did them all individually you'd end up with a bill the wrong side of a grand! Way, way beyond my budget.

    Leslie - My max HR on the test came in at 183 (from HR data I've recorded in the past in races this was bit lower than I expected but that is old data). This doesn't affect the final figures too much as they work out the results based on blood tests that are taken throughout though. It also shows that the "210 - age" rule of thumb doesn't work for me as that would give me 172.

    Poacher - Sorry to hear about the job vs training woes. I'm sure Comrades will be ok though. I'm basing that assumption on the second part of your post (and I paraphrase) Multiple marathons - it's easy to do 2 in a weekend....image

    And finally a Question - seeing as the hilly trails/paths around me don't seem to be drying out any time soon I think that I need to get me a pair of trail shoes. Currently I run in Kayano on the road as I need some stability but have no idea when it comes to trail shoes. Looking for some recommendations to stop me slipping over every few steps. Any help would be appreciated.

  • Gul - it goes from rhyl prom out to kinmel bay then douible back to prestatyn and back again, twice. but it is flatter than a steamrollered flat thing with only 3m of gain on average per mile.

    BB - it is still 8 weeks away so plenty of time to rest/improve - may just have a ramp up next week, a two week taper at the end and 5 weeks of P&d in the middle.

    Cant help on the trailers Fin gers but am thinking of going more off road myself so looking forward to the responses.

  • G-DawgG-Dawg ✭✭✭

    FINgers: My road shoes are always Asics. Currently I have the GT2000 shoes for most road running including races and Kayano 14 for the LSRs (extra cushioning).

    On the trails I have a pair of Adidas Kanadia. They look great and work a treat. I was a little apprehensive about changing brand but I got a really good deal and fortunately they feel comfortable and perform well. A friend has gone for some Salomon trail shoes, he says they’re great while others have said that the more specialist Inov8 trailers do the business. Stick to the main brands and you can’t go wrong.

    Did a brutal track session at lunchtime. Alternated between 200 and 400 metre efforts with 200m recoveries – did 5 sets of both.
    I bashed the ribs in my chest playing football last week and they really bl00dy hurt! Nice bruising and plenty of pain in the chest, under the arm and travelling into the back. Ouch!

    Today I could do reps with the pain but had to do a walking rather than light jog recovery before setting off on another pain fest. The walks were around 2 mins which meant my HR was nice and low and was then able to do a quality rep. Did my best 400 rep for any interval session posting a time of 1.21 on the penultimate circuit. I seem to be improving. image

    I think a weekend off is in order to try and get these ribs sorted.


  • AbbersAbbers ✭✭✭

    CC2 - shame about the missed league fixture, but more important to get yourself healthy. There are always more races.

    Leslie - nice monthly mileage, sorry to hear about the on-going lurgy. At least it gets it out of the way.

    Poacher - 3 jobs?!? Surprised you have the time or energy to do any training at all!

    Gul - more great training, as usual. Flying.

    BB - enjoy the return to carbs!

    FINgers - not a huge amount of experience in trail shoes, I simply got the Brooks off-road equivalent of the road shoes I prefer (Adrenalines). Does fine for Forest trails, but my brother-in-law is a proper fell runner and mountain marathoner, and he swears by Innov8s. As SB says above, you won't go too far wrong with Salomon either, just try a few on and see what feels right.

    Menn - should be a quick course then, coastal winds notwithstanding.

    SB - good reps, especially allowing for the rib issues!

    6 more at lunch, so allowing for something in double figures at the weekend, I'll be back over 30 for the week, building back up slowly post-London. More x-training with nets tonight, assuming it's not chucking down again.

  • SlokeyJoeSlokeyJoe ✭✭✭

    FINgers, Inov8s are lovely lightweight and grippy shoes but offer very little I the way of support. Salomon Speedcross are worth a look but might feel a bit tight if you have wide feet and are ace but feel weird if you have to go on Tarmac as part of your run.  My current pairs are:

    - Salomon S- lab Sense Ultra which are frankly the finest pair of shoes I've ever had but are a bit pricey

    - La Sportiva something or other - supportive but a bit heavy and useless on wet rock but great in the mud

    -Salomon XR Mission - half way between a road shoe and a trail shoe - ok

  • Leslie HLeslie H ✭✭✭

    Gul- great pace and volume.

    FINgers-dont think the average 220-age formula works for runners other wise id be 179 instead of 195 , disappointed I didn't hit 200 though image

    SB-Nice reps

    Abbers-get back on it is tough after a mara

    another rest day ,3rd in a row could nearly get used to it image

  • FINgers - Mizuno Wave Ascends for me. Never had a problem with them - grip well but OK for stretches on the road if you need to run to get to the start of a trail run.

    Good speed work from Gul and SB. Hope the ribs get better soon.

  • Gul DarrGul Darr ✭✭✭

    Badbark - good fat burning! You still do the carbo-load, then? Did you hear Barry Murray on MT? Strangely enough, it is my local 10k on Sunday, but I'm not racing it this year.
    Mennaniab - sounds like a good course if you don't get a windy day!
    SB - nice reps. Take care of those ribs. One of mine is still sore from the fall, but nothing like yours by the sound of it!
    Abbers - recovery going well.
    Leslie - enjoy the extended rest!
    6 easy miles d&d. Now off for a pre-birthday haircut. Still trying to decide on tomorrow's session. I pencilled in 20miles with 10 @ MP, but I'm pretty much settled on MP now, so not sure what there is to gain from pushing it 4 weeks out other than risking injury, so might tone it down a bit.

  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭
    Fingers - I wear Salomon fellraisers on the trails and fells. They have a great grip and very comfortable but if it's wet they can be slippy on bits of Tarmac. The speedcross would perhaps be better if you have longer stretches of Tarmac.
  • Morning all, an "easy" few again for me today. Still hard work but I've got to keep telling my self it will get easier and it's going to be worth it in the end.

    Thanks for all the tips on shoes - I've read lots of good things about the inov8s but I have a tendency to turn my ankle probably need a little more supportive unfortunately. It's seems I'm going to have to change my normal retailer and actually leave the house to go to an actual shop!

    SB - watch out on those ribs. I cracked a rib and damaged my intercostal muscle a few years ago playing rugby and the pain sounds very similar. Not that you can do a lot for ribs other than rest them so they can heal. Go easy.

    Happy running y'all!
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