Sub 3h15



  • OO54OO54 ✭✭✭

    SJ- lucky you are a man of many talents. Much sympathy for all those with hip issues- my weak spot too.

    18:05 at the parkrun and 5th in a quality field. Clicked up an 82 WAVA and such a nice morning I added 4 miles to warm down.

    Hope you got the good weather too for your 20 Lorenzo 

  • OO - yup, almost perfect conditions: nice and cool without being chilly. Light long sleeved top and shorts. Impressive top 5 finish this morning.

    All very quiet out there at the moment - surely not everyone's glued to the Ryder Cup!

  • OO54OO54 ✭✭✭

    Or Strictly.....

  • Tasty pace OO.

    My ankle is still tender so I applied some discretion and changed my 10 easy plus 10 at MP run to 2 easy and 10 at MP. Frozen vegetables are now deployed! 

  • Jools, did you use the pacers last year at Frankfurt? Were they reliable?

  • Hi all, been lurking recently as have been preoccupied.

    SJ  - Sorry to hear but you sound very positive whatever the outcome may be.

    Gul, Birch - Really excited for you both and I really hope you get a great return on your investment in this campaign and I'm sure you will.

    Lorenzo - 20 mile run? Are you doing an Autumn marathon or is that part of your Comrades approach? Have you read Bruce Fordyce's Comrades training strategy. He has an interesting take on that.

    OO - Another very fast parkrun and great WAVA. Do you prefer the shorter stuff? 

    I have not been able to build on the mileage this week have run 4/6 days and am planning an 18k hilly run tomorrow morning. It has been really hot here and forecast is 25c for tomorrow so better get out early-ish. Well, relatively speaking, as Gul would be on his second breakfast by the time I head off!image

    Sorry if I missed any folk and healing vibes to the injured and wounded. Continued positive vibes all round.

  • GM - hope everything's OK with you at the mo. Is the Fordyce training strategy you refer to the one on the website? I've got a marathon in the diary for 1 November as I want to get my qualifying time sooner rather than later and certainly not leave it until London in April just in case anything goes wrong.

    As the weather's looking good for tomorrow morning I might even head out on the bike for a bit of a change / recovery.

  • Lorenzo - I'm still ticking thanks and enjoying being able to run again. image

    I haven't seen that website guide you refer to re BF, but the one I mention is re his training diaries in The bible of running i.e. Lore of Running. He seemed to get it right almost every time and was in peak condition come race day. His emphasis was, from what I remember, not to over train and certainly not to race a standard marathon in the build up and not overload too early, which I know you wouldn't, but check it out. He is the master as far as I am concerned when it comes to road ultra's and I know we are not his league but you can learn only from the best. Good luck with your training.

  • Morning All,

    That's a bugger SJ.  Not good.  I can only remember the case of Floyd Landis as an athlete who completed with a hip replacement.  Then again I wouldn't recommend anyone follow his approach to sport.

    Good to see Gul and Birch in good condition and easing off.

    Lorenzo - I did follow the Bruce Fordyce approach to Comrades 2013 training.  Essentially it can be summarised as follows.  Start in the New Year.  Moderate volume for the first 6 weeks - normal marathon volume from mid-Feb to Mid-April - increase volume to very high from Mid-April to end May/ 1st week June - taper to race day.  Focus on speed and strength for first 3 months - focus on endurance thereafter.  

    My Abo number arrived in the post - 440.  I spent a good few years working for the Hong Kong Chinese and their culture has somewhat rubbed off in me - the Chinese being very superstitious of the number 4 as it sounds like 'death'

    My knee magically heal as mysteriously as the pain arrived.  If only all injuries were that kind.  My cold disappeared so it was time to run this morning.  30km /18.6miles at 8:50 pace which is much closer to my typical pace for that route and 20 seconds per mile faster than last week.  The secret is I experimented with carbs before key sessions - the hills were a lot easier and the whole run comfortable except hips and achilles a bit sore now.

    I took the day off from being unemployed to go fishing on Friday (3rd time in 30 years after being a very enthusiastic as a youth).  I caught the biggest fish of my life and so I'll have at least one PB this autumn.


  • Lorenzo - nice to get a 20 miler in 

    0051- great wava on the parkrun image

    Slokey- just cut out that easy running altogether and get the mara pace done image

    Gerard- enjoy the 18 in hot conditions as it will be cold soon enough

    BI- carbed up and running well ,well done on the catch !

    4.5 miles early doors (6am) with a little bit of pace and 30 miles for the week (20 more than last week) image



  • MsEMsE ✭✭✭

    Lorenzo - nice long one there, neighbour. image

    It seems that OO just can't be beaten on those shorter distance WAVAs.  Imagine what they would be if he was female!

    BI - 4 is a terrible terrible number. I avoid it at all costs.  Now, show me an 8 and you've got me interested! 

    Nicely coming back Leslie. Steady and slow is the way.  

    Three short ambles for me last week post HM.  The right achilles is quiet now and the left one much better and looking less cankle like I am going to spend another week running easy but try consecutive days.  Throw in some yoga, barre class and pilates and hope that I can resume marathon training the following week with my new focus being the Thames Meander on 1 November.

  • Good news on the cankles MsE image

    Currently at the Manchester velodrome watching the national cycle champs - very impressive.

  • 14.5 lazy miles this morning. Still unsure about if I will do a marathon again but the training suits me and a few 50 mile weeks and some longer runs does seem to help.

  • New marathon WR - does that bugger up everyones WAVA?

  • Only for the men

    Didn't use pacers at frankfurt so no idea what they're like. Prefer not to run in a huge pack in any event.
  • *pops head back in*

    Sorry I haven't been reading, it was too depressing when I couldn't run myself. Have started back this week having had xrays confirm no fracture. Still waiting on physio. 

  • BirchBirch ✭✭✭

    welcome back, Speedy 

  • Proof that Berlin is the quickest of the majors and potentially lightning fast given the right weather. Anyone thinking of signing up for 2015?

    Lorenzo: back to the LR debate.  what do I know, but IMO anyone who can knock out 1 or 2 gentle maras in training, understands run/walk, and can handle pain, can finish Comrades without any alarms. The reason it's a great event is not cos its the hardest or anything like's cos of the heritage/spirit/atmosphere and much more.  However (and I'm indebted to BI for stressing this) one shouldn't worry about the 12hr cut off which is only of concern for the slowest qualifiers and those who get injured/ill/have a mare on the's about the ambition to get the best colour medal you can.  For a sub3.15 marathoner the real question is how close to 8 hrs one can go and certainly to aim for sub9.  To reach one's full potential in London then again at Comrades a few weeks later would be miraculous. They are just so different.  OTOH as you will have to do Comrades at least twice, you could save the fast one for 2016 image

  • Speedy - Welcome back. How long were you unable to run for?

    Gutted the Berlin marathon wasn't on Euro sport like it usually is. Great times there and poor E Mutai was 2nd again even though he broke Kipsang's previous WR.

    17k run for me today and it was not easy. Did a very hilly route which is a tough section of the Jersey marathon course but done and dusted in 79 mins which I'm happy enough with for now as that was my longest run since February. It was very warm and lost a lot of salt but feel great now after a dip in the ocean.


  • Three local runners did Berlin today and all ran a negative split, shows Berlin has a fast finish perhaps. The quickest of the 3 was a v65 and managed to break 3hrs which is very impressive.

    3 hour long run for me today with the first 2hrs 10mins run easy at about 8.15 pace then a fast MP 10k averaging 6.37 followed by a 10 min warm down to give me 23 miles.

    Mara pace was a bit of a shock to the system after the long plod but once I'd settled in it felt fairly comfortable(ish).

    Gives me 87 miles for the week and now is the start of the taper. I feel ready.
  • Lorenzo - very good hilly 20 miles.
    OO - another cracking parkrun.
    SJ - take care of that ankle!
    GM - good hilly run from you too.
    Bike It - good to hear the knee is OK.
    Leslie - nice progress.
    MsE - glad to hear you're recovering.
    PMJ - always nice to have the option.|
    Surely new WR doesn't affect WAVA for us old gits, unless Kimetto is one too!
    Speedy - great to hear there's no fracture.
    Moof - crikey, that's some long run and weekly mileage. No wonder you're ready for the taper!
    5 miles with 3 x 800m @ MP this morning. Forecast for Sunday in Mablethorpe looks good - just keeping an eye on the wind speed though!

  • Moof - cracking stuff. Very impressed that you found that pace at the end comfortable.

    Speedy - welcome back. We've missed you. Hope you get back into things soon.

    4.5 miles with some hill reps for me this morning. Nothing really to report.

  • MsEMsE ✭✭✭

    Speedy - promising news!  Let's hope the physic can get you up and running well again soon.  It must feel good to be out again?

  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭

    SJ - Would a scan or MRI not give you a more accurate result of the state of cartilage?  And what exactly is the state of the cartiage?  

    TR - I'm having lessons once a week and really noticing the difference already. 

    Speedy - How is the hip feeling now?


  • Anyone out there any words of wisdom on cadence and stride? My new GPS, Garmin 220, records cadence, and seems to do a decent job. A couple of recent long runs show:

    Maidenhead Half 13.1 miles @ 6:25 pace average cadence 186 stride 1.35 mMidweek 13.46 @ 7:27 pace average cadence 175 stride 1.23 m
    Weekend 14.5 @ 7:37 pace average cadence 177 stride 1.19 m

    For a track mile, I averaged 192 and peaked at 216 with 1.60 m stride.

    Garmin has coloured zones and purple is over 185 and they say that is top 5% and others say that the magic number is 180.


  • MsEMsE ✭✭✭

    Gosh PMJ.  TMI for me to compute. All I know is the more quickly I pick my feet up, the better they fall into place for the next stride and the less time they spend on the ground soaking up impact injuries.  Now if Garmin could tell me how to fix my pelvic tilt so I fully engage my glutes, I might be interested in the things again.

  • OO54OO54 ✭✭✭

    PMJ when I run at my best it feels easy and light, but no real idea about cadence. 

    Pleased to report junior OO ran 1:36:34 in her first half marathon yesterday (she is 17)

    Good to hear u r running Speedy- you'll be speedy in no time !


  • Great to hear that Speedy is back on the road. A very welcome return to running, and to the thread.

    I'm still on the bench, as lunchtime's test run revealed that the calf is still jiggered, so another fortnight of cycling/x-training/swimming lies ahead. Deeply frustrated and disappointed, and at the moment, am struggling for motivation as it has been so long since I was able to string together any kind of significant running. June in fact. image

  • It is often said that many/most of the elite distance runners have an eerily similar cadence of 180 or very close.  This is ?10-15? steps more than a typical club runner the elite have a longer stride which eats up the ground. PMJ your cadence sounds pretty impressive. I have measured my "natural" cadence to about 172, it's surprisingly hard to up that to 180 (although only ever counted it on the beach which is not the best surface for quick turnover)

    Speedy - welcome back - whats the injury situation?

    Great work by OOjnr

    SJ - can't imagine how you keep going with strong performances...are you related to Lee Majors

    Moof - still on target to cane it, looking very good

  • 180 is the standard target for good efficient running cadence where the elastic recoil of the ligaments is significant.  Much lower than that and the elastic effect is lost and efficiency drops as the propulsion is purely muscular, rather than stored energy being returned from your ligaments.  The exact figure depends on individual characteristics, like leg length, and I've seen ranges like 174-186 quoted as well

    Running with a cadence higher than that does not loose efficiency - just it is more muscularly difficult to drive it

    Elite runners run in the range 180-220.  Depends on their individual characteristics and the length of levers as to what is natural for their level of capability.

    I think you seem to be going pretty close to the ideal parameters PMJ.

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