Sub 3h15



  • Fish52Fish52 ✭✭✭

    Abbers - Keep going with your job search and return to running. Good luck.

    00-51 - More top racing at Derwent Water. Good time that, on a hilly course.

    TR - Nice 10 from you as well. I'm with you on the power of the turbo.

    TR/PMJ - interesting training talk. This is just the place to debate ambitious targets and the training needed to get there. For me (as it probably is for us all) it's a fine balancing act between running miles and inure woes. And I'm still on the injury side. Last Sunday's session has set me right back; my knee was in a bad way on Monday morning. So no running this week, or for the foreseeable future. The best 'injury free' plans for me are those from Horowitz and Furman. Both derided on various forums, but if I'd stuck with them over the summer, my RHM mara time may have been a couple of mins slower - but I would still be running strong in November.

  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    Fishy - not aware of the details of those plans but in lots of cases folks that have injury issues say they need to run less to stay healthy but still run hard in those running days. I see it the other way, folks that have injury issues need to slow right down and take time to slowly build the frequency via short runs. Most folks run too fast too often. For some reason slow running gets overlooked. I would rather see someone run 6 days a week all slow over a range of distances than 3 days a week inc sessions. The regular running makes the body robust imo. After a low few months I only upped it to 120m in oct but that was spread over about 20 runs, the frequency will toughen me up, there was only the odd run over 6m.
  • OO54OO54 ✭✭✭

    best be safe GM- hope it's OK.

    TR I must say my running is dominated by my work schedule. Usually 5-6 runs a week but heavily biased to the weekend. I'm a lazy trainer so could rarely be accused of running too hard, although I generally ignore most injuries image

    18:15 at the parkrun and 3rd. Not bad but I was hoping for a bit better.


  • Fish52Fish52 ✭✭✭

    TR - agree with & understand all you say. And running is definitely my favourite sport - convenient & natural. My injury arises from a climbing accident, which smashed up my right knee. 2 operations helped with repairs & for a while cycling was my only option. I know that I would be quicker over the marathon with more running miles & greater frequency; and it is a great temptation. To be fair, I've only succumbed a couple of times, but each time (2nd now), I've ended up in a state, not being able to run at all. So the tri training approaches with a running bias from, Furman & Horowitz, have been a real boon for me & marathon running.

    00-51 - Not a bad park run at all.

  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    Fishy - I did really mean folks that break down due to running related injuries. When you have an issue like yours then thats a different matter.

    00 - what you do works well for you. You race regularly and there's a training effect from that. So lots of easy stuff around that is ideal.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    Fishy - however, thinking about it I bet you'd respond to regular easy running and hard turbo. Not sure if thats what you do or wether you run hard less frequently.
  • Fish52Fish52 ✭✭✭

    TR - depends what I'm training for. I bike (turbo on winter nights) 3-4 times a week, run 3-4 times a week. I always do an interval session on a Friday. The other runs are fairly easy, depending on how I feel. If it's a marathon, then 5-7 20 milers over about 16 weeks. Also PJs and machine strength work.

  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    Looks decent, I guess the only thing you need to watch for is the friday intervals and im assuming weekend long run double hit esp if the inervals are friday evening.
  • Fish52Fish52 ✭✭✭

    Sometimes miss the intervals depending on what's coming up at weekend. Long runs usually progressive, with negative split and strong finish. Occasionally do a long bike ride instead of long run. 
    I've read about your tri on here, which I don't do as swimming is defo not my bag, but do Cumbrian Commotion each March, which is team event & has kayaking instead of swimming. 

  • Gul , a small price to pay for a curry. That was a good stretch of consistent weekly mileage and interesting to see a lot of 50 mile weeks.

    OO - another solid parkrun time.

    5 miles at 7.55 pace this morning.
  • Gul- 9 isn't bad at all .

    Fishy- not more knee bother image

    00-51- great parkrun time image

    For training when I did the really high mileage last year I did better asnd felt far stronger , less mileage but more racing this year only worked up to a point then injury, sickness and burnout followed in quick succession image !

    6 miles today giving a disappointing 41 miles for the week, the planned double after nights today didn't happen due to needing to sleep.image


  • I think weekly mileage totals hide a lot. I know for sure that this summer I was churning reasonably high mile weeks with no variation or quality. I run 6 days a week and if I just do a lazy 7.5 miles each day then I knock off 45 miles in week. Make a couple of those a bit longer (say 9 mile so 3 mile jog to and from parkrun) and I am in the 50s. Compare that to a properly paced 15 mile LSR, a tempo / track of 10 and 25 miles split over 4 runs including a parkrun and 50 miles look very different.

  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    Fishy - my swim started out pretty weak which is why I keep plugging away with it, one day I hope to look back on some improvement with pride.

    Pmj - indeed, I tend to mention frequency not miles. The first week you mention sounds underrated, the 2nd week does include more quality but contains more associated risk with it. If the said person then does too much hard running on the easy days then they might break and would have been better off with week 1. The person then thinks they'd be better off injury wise by running less but keeps the hard sessions and bins the easy.which is what I was trying to get at. Its a balancing act I guess. For a marathon 50 to 60 mpw easy goes a long way.
  • MsEMsE ✭✭✭

    Interesting discussion on balancing the training miles.  I found myself nodding in agreement reading your thoughts TR having come back from a chronic injury.  My next cycle of marathon training will be spent on building more base miles and the most speed work I plan to incorporate will be strides, some tempos and those MRP miles.  I did enjoy doing the speed work in the Hansons schedule but I think I am such an early stage of marathoning that just getting more mileage in my legs will get my mitochondria partying.  image

  • Fish52Fish52 ✭✭✭

    Hansons and P&D both explain how easy running improves your conditioning & strength in a build up to a marathon. Even the guys at Furman acknowledge the importance of easy running as part of an overall plan. The key seems to be making sure that the easy runs are truly easy, around 1.5min/mile slower than MP.

    Incidentally TR, I've looked at the P&D up to 55 plan, which mixes in cycling as a substitute for some of the recovery runs.

    Work this morning, and home at 2.30pm, leaving just enough time for a good 2 hours biking around Silverdale, Arnside, Milnthorpe, Beetham, Yealand and Warton; before it got dark. Thought I might see SJ going the other way.

  • No such luck Fishy. I was out and about yesterday with a ride up past esthwaite water to Hawkshead, over the hill and back down on the east side of coniston water. Lovely stuff. Check out the "Cumbrian Cracker" - a sportive next Sunday.

    Bad news and good news today.... My tready is broken image But I ran for a whole mile without any pain imageimage

  • PMJ- that first week suited your lifestyle though didn't it  as the runs were in your lunch break , gives the family less to complain about image We all have to fit what we can around our work / home life that's why I've tried the runs before work at gul o clock this time.

    Once we get the the actual marathon schedule though most stick to it with its long runs , speed work and easy runs as best they can in the circumstances , everything else is just base building.image 

    Fishy - I think the often quoted 1.5 min/miles slower doesn't work for everyone that would have me running at 9:30's with my mara pb of 3:27 which is far too slow and just awkward to run at for me, only the first mile till my knee works is ever at this pace then usually around 8 to 8:30 m/miles average.

    Slokey - dreadmills are torture devices image

    For me today :

    AM-6 with 7 x 400 m thrown in (95 secs/lap)

    PM- 5 easy to mix it up a bit image

  • Fish52Fish52 ✭✭✭

    SJ - great route yesterday & nice pain free running. 

    Leslie - great double today. That recommended pace does seem really slow doesn't it? I try to warm up for intervals at that pace & it is so slow. But then I read about top marathoners running their easy runs at 6:45/7s, which is 2 mins slower. 

  • Interesting discussion on quality & base building, have to say I agree with both sides.  A lot of it also depends on how robust you are (ie quality without getting injured) and how much the rest of your life gets in the way of running...

    No such problems for me today, 16 miles sub 8 in some lovely Devon sunshine this morning.


  • Fishy-As long as you hit the intervals target I suppose there it doesn't matter , I always throw in some strides the 2nd mile just before I crack on  as i'm sure you do so then you are ready to nail it image The mile after the intervals is fairly slow though image

    I think if you easy running is too easy then it makes it very difficult to step up to you target mara pace as that is so much faster .As for those elites yes they do run some slow ones but they seem to run a lot of mara tempo's as well.

  • Impressive cycling in the Lakes from SJ and Fishy - I'm much more of a fair weather cyclist and can get any kind of enjoyment cycling in the cold, wind and rain.

    Can't see anyone having raced this weekend with the exception of OO churning out another useful parkrun.

    Manically busy week last week but managed to get out running every day for a post marathon week of 35 miles. I even managed a first this morning by doing a 45 mins spinning class sandwiched by a 2.5 miles run down to the leisure centre.

    Workload not looking any better this coming week with an early morning start to head over to Gloucestershire but hope to get a quick yomp through the woods in beforehand.

  • Busy week coming up for me so not sure how often I'll get to post!
    Nice parkrun OO.
    Lots of easy miles didn't work for me - I did 60+ mpw for months and still my wheels fell off. I was much fitter last year doing two decent sessions and a long run. But as it's been said, it really is a balancing act. At least I made the start and finish lines!
    Just did 12 miles @ 7:32 m/m inc. 6 miles worth of hills. Now off to walk the dog and then get the house ready for the window fitters.

  • Leslie, that MP + 90 does seem slow but it has to be in context. Firstly, let nobody say they can't run that slow. If you say that you are lying. I did a 10 miler a few weeks ago at 10 m/m pace so if I can do 10 m/m, anyone can.

    If we look at 3:27 and say do a 20 mile LSR at 9:30 then that takes 3 hours 10 minutes which is still 17 minute short of the time you will be racing. For me, my MP last time out was 6:30 and if I did 20 miles at 8:00 then that is 2:40 so agina shirt of the marathon duration.

    Some long runs need to be slow ones, not all. P&D recommend MP+ 20% for the first half and MP+0% for the second half so for 3:27 pace that is 9:28 for the first 10 miles and then 8:41 for the second 10 miles which makes for a run of 3:01:43 at average pace of 9:05 (I have a big spreadsheet for all of this).

    Looked at the logs this mornings, for 2014 Distance: 2,000.38 mi

    2,000 under the belt and still not mid November. Will be looking for over 2,200 and maybe 2,300 as a target. Will rue April and 91 miles.

    Ant van Oviedo, seems my wife assumes that if you don't comment on my pictures of food and or drink on facebook that you are ill.

  • For the longer standing thread members, I saw a few pictures of Matchstick Man in facebook over the weekend. For the newer members, go back about 38,474 posts.

  • NayanNayan ✭✭✭

    Hey can I ask what is the current concensus the 10k and HM times and weekly mileage a sub 3:15 marathoner does?

  • BirchBirch ✭✭✭

    SJ -nice mile  . . . . .
    40min - good sunny 16
    Leslie - sound double
    Lorenzo - good spin/run combo - have been mulling over whether to introduce static cycling as pre-emptive preventative therapy measure for my knees now that they have returned to a state of  withstanding two maras this year  . . . . 
    Gul - continued solid training . . .
    PMJ - well done ticking off the 2K already - 1917 here, reached this weekend with 11 mile hilly off/on road combo followed by parkrun 21:46 on Sat, then very sedate 4 miles y'day.  
    89/472 in parkrun (1st V60)- wava 73.66% - would be nice to get back to he 75% mark; maybe I should try one without the 90 minute warmup . . . .
    in fairness, have to point out only19/122 on the alltime list for VoGits at this parkrun,  perhaps should go to my other local one where my current time would put me 3rd       . . . .

  • Nayan: probably sub-40 and sub-90.  What mileage it takes to achieve those varies very much from person to person: depends on gender, age, talent, running history...

  • NayanNayan ✭✭✭

    got it. That's more or less what I'm working towards as preparation. Thanks

  • Good Parkrun Birch - 75 is there for the taking

    I personally don't think you can run all year round doing the same each week as I think there is too much hard running and your body naturally needs to step back a bit, but to build up a base mileage at the same time.

    I'm sticking to the base mileage at the moment and running at 8 min pace and then just 1 run each week with some lactic threshold or lactic shuffles. Did 13.1 miles last night at 7.55 av pace, although mile 11 - 12 was at 6.36 pace just to shrug off a guy who cruised past me!

  • The impudence KR! Didn't he know who you are? Well shrugged.

    Impressive mileage PMJ. I will attempt a 2 miler tonight to continue my "catch PMJ" campaign.

    Nayan, are you going to stick around and entertain us with your trials and tribulations?

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