Sub 3h15



  • Quick de-lurk....Am trying to find running mojo again after 3/4 months off - managed 20 miles per week last 2 weeks, so if I can up it a bit the next couple of weeks, I might put my name down for a marra next year and join you all again...

    Just wanted to defend the FIRST - Run less, Run faster book.  I used it religiously for my first marra 2 years ago - I followed the 3.15 plan, and finished in 3.17.  I think a plan that can take someone who had only 4/5 HMs in the bank in the preceding 2/3 years and get them that close is pretty special.

    I really recommend it for those that want to run a bit less and do not want to rack up mile after mile.

    I remain convinced I can get to 3.05/10 and maybe even close to the holy grail of 3.00 on this plan, and that it gives me a better chance of remaining injury free.

    IMHO - there is no single right way to get to 3.15 - there is just a right way for you.  FIRST works for me as P&D works for others.....

    Anyway good luck to all with the running - and hopefully see you all back here soon


  • Not that I'm some old, bitter and twisted, permanently injured, non-runner, obviously.

  • thanks dm1974 - Was going to ask about lists on the thread but decided not to. I think I put my put in it last week asking about the finish - was only trying to be friendly!

    Keir - I wonder how much that weighs when fully loaded? Can you put gels in those front pockets?

  • MsE wrote (see)
    BadBark - how on earth do you manage to get going so soon in your run? I always find it takes me a good 3-4 miles until I am running smoothly which always brings my run average down considerably. If I went off at 6.5m/m from the start I would inevitably pull something

    I do some dynamic stretches and a minutes fast jogging on the spot before I leave my house. It’s also handy that my usual route is downhill for the first ½ mile so I can run a decent pace without really opening up. Of course the flip side is the last ½ mile is a killer!

    Thanks for all the encouragement everyone.

    Ormeski – I only every use gels when I’m racing as I’m too much of a tight ass. I’m not paying a pound or two for every time I want to run a decent distance. imageI like High5 Isogels with caffeine which gives me a good kick as I don’t normally drink anything with caffeine in it.

    My usually fuelling would be something like this

    Under 10 miles – Nothing apart from a glass of orange before I start

    10 – 15 miles – 500ml of homemade isotonic drink (HID)

    15 – 20 miles – 1 litre of HID

    21+ miles – 1.5 litres of HID

    10k race – 1 caffeine isogel before the start

    Half marathon – 1 caffeine isogel at start and 500ml of HID

    Marathon – 5 caffeine isogels throughout and 1.5L of HID (plus extra gels or drinks handed out)

    I always start with a bottle for half marathons that I finish by about 8 -10 miles and start a full marathon with a 1.5L Camelbak which is usually empty by about 20 miles.

  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭
    knight rider wrote (see)

    Keir - I wonder how much that weighs when fully loaded? Can you put gels in those front pockets?

    I guess a fair bit. Until Xmas day I can't let you know! However the weight is mainly the fluid rather than the belt. 2 standard sized bottles = 1L = 1kg. + weight of belt /gels etc. However this summer I was running LSRs with a cycling bottle in my hand the whole way, which was not ideal. I searched quite a bit and asked advice on here (or the previous incarnation of here) and this seemd the best to cover all bases. I think there is room for gels somewhere.

    BB - I find that I don't drink much in HMs or less. I grab the odd cup for comfort / dry mouth rather than performance benefits. Do you think drinking makes a difference to performance over a 90 min race?

    Hello Rat. Goodbye Rat image

  • First track session tonight. 5 x 1km with 60sec recovery:

     1 - 3:44

     2 - 3:49

     3 - 3:49

     4 - 3:50

     5 - 3:46

    Great to run with others running same pace and pushing each other through each rep.

  • Had a bit of fun running this evening.  8M @ 7.30m/m as I got caught up in a bit of a tussle on the Portway with a guy who was determined not to be chicked.  I chuckled when he stopped to turn off the Portway because he was dripping with sweat and puffing like a nuisance caller.  I was still feeling comfy image

  • Aha! Here you are all hiding!


    07.11.10 - SteveC1975 - Regents Park 10K - Around 40 Mins - 40:14 - job done
    21.11.10 - AfE - Abbey Dash 10k - sub-39 as a marker/indicator - 38:22 - job done
    21.11.10 - BOTF - Brighton 10k - under 40:30 - 40:02 - job done
    05.12.10 - GE - Regents Park 10k - sub 38:30 - ?? - job ??
    05.12.10 - SteveC1975 - Regents Park 10K - Sub 40 Mins - ?? - job ??
    23.01.11- Barry B Gloucester Marathon - Sub 3:15
    23.01.11 - AfE - Brass Monkey Half - sub-1:25
    23.01.11 - XPS - Brass Monkey half - sub-1:24
    23.01.11- efc-col Four Villages Half Marathon-sub 1.25
    05.02.11 - Lorenzo - Thames Trot 50 - Sub 8 hours
    13.02.11 - Matchstick Man - Wokingham HM - 1h23m
    13.02.11 - SBD - Wokingham HM - 1:24
    13.02.11 - BOTF - Wokingham HM - 1:25, but seeing the two entries above...?
    13.02.11 - dm1974 - Liversedge Half - 1.29.59
    20.02.11 - BOTF - Bramley 20 - sub 2:25
    06.03.11 - Scooby - Marathon Catalunya - 3:09:59
    06.03.11 - MsE - Bath HM - Sub 1.30
    06.03.11 - Joolska - Bath HM - tbc...
    06.03.11 - dm1974 - Haweswater Half Marathon - 1.29.59
    13.03.11 - Knight RIder - Retford Half Marathon - 1:26.xx
    13.03.11 - SBD - MIlton Keynes - 1:24
    19.03.11 - Badbark - Larne Half Marathon - Sub 1:30
    19.03.11 - Speedy - Stafford HM - 1.31.59
    20.03.11 - FINgers - Reading Half Marathon - Sub 1:26
    20.03.11 - Ormeski - Reading Half Marathon - Sub 1:25
    20:03.11 - BOTF - Reading HM - 1:25
    20.03.11 - SteveC1975 - Brentwood Half Marathon - Sub 1:28
    27.03.11 - Keir - Paddock Wood HM - Sub 1:25
    10.04.11 - FW - Chris Hoy HM Edinburgh - Sub 1:20
    10.04.11 - FINgers - Brighton Marathon - 3:09:59
    10.04.11 - Knight Rider - Brighton Marathon - Sub 3.15
    10.04.11 - B&B vs MM in the Regency 10k Smackdown! - Sub39.
    10.04.11 - dm1974 - Paris - 3.14.59
    17.04.11 - Race Jase - VLM - not sure on target just yet, but hopefully I'll be in PB (sub2:39) shape.
    17.04.11 - SBD - VLM - 2:49
    17:04.11 - Ant & XPS - VLM - 2:54:59
    17.04.11 - Joolska - VLM - 2.59.59
    17:04:11 - AfE - VLM - 2:59:59
    17.04.11 - Lorenzo - VLM - sub 3:10
    17:04:11 - BOTF - VLM - 3:10 ish
    17.04.11 - kittenkat - VLM 3.10
    17.04.11 - Jane326 - VLM 3.10
    17.40.11- efc-col VLM-sub 3.10
    17:04:11 - MsE - - VLM - 3.14.59
    17.04.11 - Speedy - VLM - 3.14.59
    17.04.11 - SteveC1975 - VLM - 3.14.59
    17.04.11 - Ormeski - VLM - sub 3.15
    17.04.11 - Pipes VLM sub-3:15
    18.04.11 - OsloNeil Boston sub-3:10
    01.05.11 - Gul Darr - GEAR 10k - sub 42
    02:05:11 - Badbark - Belfast City Marathon -Sub 3:10
    08.05.11 - Keir - Essex & Halstead Marathon - Sub 3.15
    22.05.11 - B&B - Edinburgh Marathon - 3:09:59
    22.05.11 - Jane326 - Edinburgh Marathon 3.10
    22.05.11 - XPS - Grand Union Canal Race- 29:59:59 (not a typo!)
    18.06.11 - Lorenzo - Picnic - sub 4:45
    02.10.11 - Jane326 - Loch Ness Marathon 3.10
  • (just thought I'd sneak that one in)
  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭
    Sub 30 hrs XPS! Nice target. image
  • Well London and back today - 0655 train out of Skipton, a couple of Boris Bike rides and a couple of meetings later, then back home for 2000. No running for me today.

    Guess what I'm doing tomorrow? Yup - 0655 train to London, Boris Bike, monster meeting til 3pm then Boris Bike and home again for about 7:30. No running again.

    Thursday I'm hoping to get something done, then hopefully a run or two Friday or the weekend - but my mileage really is utterly pants this last couple of weeks. christmas week'll be better hopefully, then I really have to be better at managing the diary in the new year or else i'm going to be woefully under-prepared come April.

    Although all this Londoning has made me hugely enthusiastic about Boris Bikes - compared with taxis I reckon I've got my year's membership's worth in 3 weeks.
  • Nicely sneaked in, EPS.  Good luck with that.

    Kittenkat - My comment was meant in jest.  You know, saying the policy wasn't patronising to women, and then going on to refer to women in an exaggeratedly patronising way.  I was just monkeying around.  Sorry if you (or anyone, for that matter) felt slighted in any way.  That certainly wasn't my intention.  I'd never deliberately patronise women.

    Now run along and put the kettle on, would you?  There's a good dear.

    Rat - Interesting to hear your views on FIRST.  When I've doubted my ability to run more than 3 times a week, I have wondered about possibly following this (though I enjoyed the recent dismissal here of FIRST as a "boil in the bag" schedule).  Having said that, I don't follow your reasoning that you running 3:17 makes it a 'special' method.  Perhaps if you had followed P&D or RW you'd have run 3:05?  Out of interest, why did you opt for a '3 runs per week' schedule?  Had you previously been particularly injury prone?

  • @andy from embsay - if i was living over that way i would be miffed at not getting out to run you ever take in the sights at bolton abbey on a run? i used to do point to point training runs from leeds to bolton abbey for my lsrs when i lived that way.  haven't investigated a route from harrogate yet though.
  • XPS - I have difficulty imagining doing anything for 30 hours, let alone something that hurts!

    8 x 3 mins with 1 min jog recovery tonight. Legs felt surprisingly good after the 18 on Sunday, so whilst I wasn't completely flat out  flat out it was still a hard enough session to be effective. Reasonably consistent as well at just short of half a mile each time, with Garmin pace of 6:25, 6:26, 6:17, 6:31, 6:22, 6:24, 6:26 & 6:13. It's when you do something like this round an approximate 400m loop that you see how Garmins can never be 100% accurate, as despite the fact I was running round the same path each lap the gps track shows me being a good few yards off-track on some circuits. I think I was probably a little more consistant than the times show, but it's close enough.

  • TRTR ✭✭✭

    i've run the last 2 VLM off approx 3 runs/week and its a lot harder than off 6 runs week. I also put in more miles in those 3 runs than the FIRST plan would. I dont accept that the FIRST is easier on folks that get injured easily, cos the biggest risks you face as a runner are running long and running hard and the FIRST plan has both, often.
    I run 3 or 4 days/week cos of bike and swim but my body defo likes it if I run more often and I seem to get less niggles. I think regular running makes you more durable and able to accept more running, but some of that running needs to be easy paced.
    I've said it many times but I still see the best way for most folks on here (RJ and the more speedy ones excused) is to simply concentate on endurance and run a bit more often. Tempo, reps and fast stuff are just optional icing on an endurance cake. And its the size of the cake that will make the biggest difference. I reckon that 5 or 6 easy days would out perform 3 harder days. And whilst bike and swim are good for the aerobic engine marathons are hard and impact miles count lots.

  • Ormeski - Blasting track session there with 60 second recovery. I think you get more out of sessions like that when you are in a group, like you say of the same standard as you do push yourself more.

    Ex-pat Scot - I know that's not a typo, so how far is it, I presume you actually do stop a few times to refuel etc? More details please, I'm intrigued!Sounds like you have done this before with your time predication?

    Joolska wrote (see)

    Had a bit of fun running this evening.  8M @ 7.30m/m as I got caught up in a bit of a tussle on the Portway with a guy who was determined not to be chicked.  I chuckled when he stopped to turn off the Portway because he was dripping with sweat and puffing like a nuisance caller.  I was still feeling comfy image

    Liking the “puffing like a nuisance caller” phrase!

    Andy from E - The lower milage weeks could be a good rest before proper mara training. Like MM was advised last year to take a bit of a break before starting the schedule so the body was ready to cope with the impending milage after a hard year's training.

    No Club run tonight as I went to my eldest boy's school for some carol singing with the Sally Army. Back home for 7.30 and fuelled by a couple of Mince pies, I went out and ran to the Club anyway (knowing they'd just be back from their run by the time I got there). A bit of a chat with the guys and then ran back home.

    Outward bound was 3.1 miles @ 7.18 mm pace, then back home 3.1 miles @ 6.48 pace. So I achieved my goal of coming back quicker at just slower than HM pace.

  • I like what you are saying there TR and makes a lot of sense. In all the time i have been on this thread (and the last one - gawd bless it), the one over riding factor that has come through is the more easy miles you can do the more your body can handle the enduranc of the marathon. Like Race Jace says, he spends more time in the early stages buidling up the high milage, then in the later stages adds the icing with the speed work.
  • KK, just ignore TAR - he's been like that for a while now! image

    Rat - you can't just de-lurk, announce you're gunning for a sub-3 and then re-lurk. Stay around for a while.

    EPS - do you mean to say that Poacher hasn't put you off doing the GUCR? What sort of training are you doing / going to do for it?

  • dm1974 - yes, we live at the Bolton Abbey end of the village so my normal road run goes through Halton East down to Wharfedale, although I tend to do LRs after work on a Friday so run on canal from Silsden as it means i can do a few miles at MP at the end, which is quite tricky running up a 2m long hill back over to Embsay. I've been doing a bit more up on the fell recently though, as it's a good way of getting time on my feet without obsessing about pace.

    KR - i don't think Liz suggested that MM go out on the lash twice a week whilst he was "resting" though, did she? Almost over - last beery night before Christmas tomorrow. 0655 train to London again - it's a good job they've got coffee on here. Zzzzzz...
  • @joolska - i too would like permission to use you the phrase 'puffing like a nuisance caller' in future conversation!! image
  • Got swim out the way this morning. First time i've done it the morning after an evening run and actually found it really good to warm up and flush out the legs. Sure i'll be dozing into me keyboard later this morning!
  • Yes, "PLANC" is phrase of the week (month?) in my book.

    Wise words from TR, but what else did you expect?

    Fraser - 16m in 2 hours is very good going. Some might even say it's too good!

    Really sound reps from Ormeski and BOTF. Great for the confidence to get a bit of zip in yer legs at this time of year when things* begin to weigh you down.

    * Food, drink, weather, that seasonal disorder depression jobbie, etc.

    I use those Power Bar gels on runs longer than 25kms - I'm not sure how much good they do me, but they can't be doing any harm as my guts never complain, and psychologically they provide a boost. Sometimes I cut my lip on them, though...

    9.5m this morning inc. 3 x 2 kms off 2-min jogging recoveries. Was determined not to get too anxious about these, and they went much better than last weeks' as a result. 7:50 (6:19mm), 7:44 (6:14mm) and 7:43 (6:13mm).

    I felt I needed to do these a) to counter-balance some slower running I've been doing and b) because I've got a 5m race on Saturday and I fancy doing the family name proud.

  • Keir wrote (see)

    BB - I find that I don't drink much in HMs or less. I grab the odd cup for comfort / dry mouth rather than performance benefits. Do you think drinking makes a difference to performance over a 90 min race?

    I can’t be sure how much good it does but it certainly can’t do any harm. The one Half marathon I did run without much fluids my pee was very dark after the race and I took longer to recovery. I think it was MM who said it in an earlier post, but I too take energy drinks during a long hard run to help recovery for the next as much as fuelling the current one.

    TR – I couldn’t agree more with your FIRST training comments.

  • Rat! Dude! Stop lurking you cheeky monkey and get back on the thread image
    Hope things are a lot better now and would love to have you back on board..... ah the glory days of FLM 2009 (looks into distance wistfully)
  • 5.6mile recovery for me last night. Not entirely sure what I was recovering from but anyway, average 9:02mm and 117bpm. I was awake, honest.

    Nice pacey reps from BOTF, Ormeski and Ant. You all appeared to be moving at the same speed, were you together?! Ormeski - Just out of interest, are you a scouser?

    Joolska - Nice man-racing and perfectly timed after the discussion/scuffle on Championship start times! Did you not also trip him up and while he was down there scream "AND THAT'S MY EASY PACE, SCUMBAG!"? image

    XPS - 145 miles. I'm guessing that's 30 days.

    AfE - Shame about the work nonsense. Can't you tell them you've more important targets?

    Interesting discussion on the FIRST plan. Sounds like a diet really, which I suppose it is. I have to say for Loch Ness (completed in 3hrs22mins), due to knee worries I probably did something like FIRST (although I've never seen it) as I only managed an average of just under 22mpw but almost every session was hard or long or both. I would then take as many days rest as I felt I needed to be completely refreshed, which resulted in my running only 3 or 4 days a week. I saw this as the only way I could attempt the sessions needed for the mara. For me, at that time, it worked. However, as TR suggests, I now run double that mileage, mostly slow and my legs don't need half the recovery time, which enables me to run 5 or 6 days a week which, in turn, will mean I smash my PB next time out. As we all know, alot of marathon running is about confidence and therefore different training methods are required for different people, at that particular time.


  • Blimey, things move fast on here, not sure I can keep up.

    XPS - amazing! Hmm, I might have to get in touch re. GUCR - not that I'd ever think of running that kind of mad event, but I'm organising a relay for charity along the canal next spring, so be good to get some tips.

    Okay, there follows a stupidly long spiel about First - ignore it if you like and head for the bottom of my post which sums it up image

    Perhaps it's all the fault of magazine editors who promise the quick fix with plans based on the Furman schedules. Just so that we know we're talking about the same thing here, the schedule I derived from the book and adapted consisted of

    • 1 x intervals session, slightly faster paces than you'd calculate from Macmillan or Danield.
    • 1 x tempo session, Half Marathon pace or slightly faster, 3 - 7 miles
    • 1 x LSR including 4 x 20 milers, 1 x 23 miler, at paces progressing over the schedule from MP + 1min to MP+ 15s for the last 20 miler.
    • I added 1 x easy run, 5M
    • 2 x cross-train sessions, for me biking 20 miles odd, but over the summer a 60 - 70 mile bike ride + a 30 miler.

    TR, I would only suggest that some people find their tendency to get injured is reduced with other-than-high-mileage schedules. And others find the opposite.

    My story is that 3-4 runs a week with lots of cross training was fun, hard work, and got me what I wanted. 6 runs a week, higher mileage, prior to that, was also fun, relatively easy, and also got me what I wanted. I got injured between plans using a tennis ball for injury prevention, doh! This time round I'm going for option two, just to change things around and break the routine.

    A bit more perspective: I can also only speak for the more casual runner, perhaps not Moraghan's dedicated runner. I'm someone who discovered running later in life (aged 35). I like the competition, but don't have the desire to even attempt to approach serious times at the marathon. Sub 3 seems to be a reasonable target (and a hard enough one for me) to aim at without losing my OH. Some of you here may approach running the same way, as committed fun, some of you may be aspiring serious runners, or serious runners for your age groups/gender already.

    Just spotted Blister's post - spot on but far too reasonable!

    Blimey, this is far too long, I do apologise!

    Meanwhile, in training news, on Sunday I just 10k PBed (37:47) on 30 mpw. And yes, it certainly does make me think what could I do on 60 miles per week! image

    In sum ... Why can't we all just get along!


  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭
    Congratulations on a fast 10k pb LM. That's a fast time image
  • luna man -  Congrats on your 10K PB really impressive time. Each to their own regarding training plans if it works it's a good plan.  As I said earlier I was put off the First plan as struggled to reach paces but maybe this was due to carrying an injury over from Stratford.  Currently enjoying running 6 days a week.

    12miles for me this morning, 3 miles slow then 3 miles steady x 2. Looking for MP for the steady and hit 7:14, 7:13, 7:15,7:11,7:12, 7:11 so a little bit quick but happy with consistency.

    If anyones after a long sleeve top to keep them warm during LSR's Start fitness are selling some More mile Alaska thermal tops for £14.99.  Tried mine this morning and does the job.

  • Nice running BB. Ooh, that's 3:10 pace image

    Excellent 10k time LM. Something's working for you, that's for sure.

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