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In the current spirit of complete transparency, I should point out that I only started a lower mileage routine after several years of 5-6 days a week running. I imagine that I had a reasonable-ish base then before adding in the speedier stuff, which is generally recommended anyway?
So Jane, if you've been happily running 6 days a week already (if you have), why would you change? All the evidence is still that the best way - the short cut if you like - is more regular running if you can do it. I chose an alternative because of an inability to raise the mileage and stay injury free.
I'm not advocating high mileage instead of the FIRST plan, anyone that runs high mileage runs the risk of getting injured. I would advise (or prefer) the 5 or 6 runs /week you mentioned. Intervals, tempo and an LSR (that gets pretty close to MP) are 3 hard sessions esp for someone that is looking to that approach cos of previous injuries. Might just be me but I see litlle point in doing the tempo and intervals if you havnt run enough miles to have sufficient endurance to be able to benefit from those two sessions. If your wheels have come off by 18M it doesnt matter a scooby how fast you have been able to run intervals. I would expect a person that did something like an LSR, a midweek 13M and 3 or 4 other steady paced runs of say 6 to 10M to be pushing their body far less hard in training and have much greater endurance on the day (might just be me but this enabled me to run a comfy sub3 in my first marathon).
I'm not knocking anyone for using the FIRST plan, just saying that I dont see it as an answer for folks that worry about injury risks. I'm a low pressure, dont take it too seriously sort of runner myself.
I love all the thoughts / questioning / discussion on what plan is best etc etc. IMHO I think the only right answer is that there is no single best plan - There is only the best plan for you...I also feel that there are plenty of ways to get to 3.00/3.15...so you should follow your own plan. I think the most important thing I learned from this thread (from TR/TT/XPS etc etc) - Is to listen to your own body, and nothing else...if it tells you it needs a rest, rest...
(...but to go 2.45/3.00 there probably is only one way (miles, miles and more miles).
I think what LM / TR / MM and others wrote all makes sense - I think we all agree on the fact that the joy of marathon running is that there are no shortcuts, you generally get out what you have put in - in fact you sometimes get less back (i.e. a worse time) than you have put in, and it is very very rare to get out more than you have put in - And that is why it is such a good sport....
AR - I chose FIRST mainly because (a) I am lazy and would prefer to do fewer faster runs than more slower ones and (b) I am married with 3 kids and my wife hates me running hence I need to keep the time doing it as low as possible (c) I felt it would reduce the chance of injuries (though I am less convinced on this argument now).
X-post with a few...
Jane - Further to my post above - Do what suits you, what you enjoy, and you will be fine. All plans introduce some variety of LSRs, Tempos, HMPs etc, so get some variety and some mileage and listen to your body...and if you put the effort in you will hit the 3.15 and maybe more...
BarryB - Forgot to answer the other day, Gloucester is local to my parents and where I was brought up, but not to where I live now. Too early in the year to tempt me to race it, although I might use it for a long training run in a few years.
BB - Forgot to answer the other day. I am not sure if being vegetarian means more or less colds. I used to get loads of colds when cycle racing, but I think this was due to over training and no rest weeks. I had 0 colds the year I stopped cycling and became a teacher, despite everyone else training to teach coming down with loads of them. I think running has meant I am healthier and seem to be fighting off colds better than normal at the moment. Not sure how being vegetarian affects this. Certainly you don't see many overweight veggies. What do you reckon about the colds / veggie things Speedy?
Keir / BB - having young kids increases the likelyhood of getting colds - there's always something floating about.
Lunaman - 37.xx PB for 10k off 30 miles a week is excellent - they must be all quality miles and no junk ones!
Good to see you de-lurking again Rat. Some good points there and like the you get out what you put in senario. I think it's safe to say all of us on this thread give 110% to our goals and feed off each others support.
Regarding plans, I think you have to try a few things out to see what's best for you. I'm always open to suggestions and value all the ideas on here. Trouble is they all make sense in theory - it's just finding out if the practice makes it work.
On the subject of diet what about this for a pb?
And while I am here - a warm welcome to the new faces (and lurkers Rat!) and well done on the PB Luna Man. Keep on posting and sharing your thoughts.
I have to say I am struggling to find time to comment but it is good to read (especially the three a week plan which I was considering this year as a way to actually running a mara in 2011).
Decision day tomorrow KR/Jane? Nervous? Excited? Scared?
Good stuff Jane, stick to THE PLAN, there's a plan for us all ! Or I am I still stuck in an episode of Battlestar somewhere!?
TR - injury-wise, personal experience was only that biking/rowing and maybe weights helped build my supporting muscles - at least that's what the physio reckons - in an otherwise hopelessly inefficient office-bred body. You could do all this on top of more days running if you had time, for sure. Or maybe go down the efficient running route. Being very lightweight I'd perhaps wrongly assumed that wasn't necessary. Running a little bit faster maybe made me run a bit more efficiently. I don't have any stats to backup any generalisations about injuries and training plans though.
Sorry to hark back to this, but Rat, I definitely agree after the woods in Brussels experience, that you usually get out what you put in!
Keir - lifelong veggie here (well okay, strictly pescatarian, ie eat fish occasionally). I don't take any supplements, but plenty of fruit. I usually get a cold or two every year, but haven't had one in the last two years. Dare I say it, that coincides with use of the FIRST schedules, hehe *whistles innocently*
Great running Ormeski, BOTF and Ant.
Congrats, Lunaman. That's some going by any standards, but off 30mpw?!
Slight niggle in my left calf this morning, it was a rest day in any case, but I did some core stability work. Younger daughter's Christams play this morning (wipes tears from eyes). Department Christmas lunch this afternoon and Community Carol service this evening. I've got an 8 mile general aerobic planned for tomorrow, but may give it a miss depending on how the calf feels in the morning.
A.C wrote (see)
Decision day tomorrow KR/Jane? Nervous? Excited? Scared?
A bit of everything AC, nervous and exicted. It's been on my mind a lot for the past couple of weeks and in some way it will be good to find out one way or the other tomorrow. I'm looking forward to this marathon compaign regardless of wether I'm a Supper SIx'er or “normal” runner. I've learnt a hell of a lot in the past 6 months from this thread in particular, so I hope to be able to translate that into a good solid block of 16 weeks training and achieve what I believe is a relaistic goal.
Good luck to jane as well as it's been good to read her posts too - the more the merrier on this thread.
And if there is anyone lurking out there who hasn't voted yet…
Get yourself over to the SS competition page and vote for [b]Colin[/b] in the sub 3,15 category!
Can I just say, while I'm feeling a bit emotional, that this seems to be a lovely place, thank you! I won't usually be this chatty either, it's just a quiet week at work, and I'm all excited about the prospect of another marathon campaign, how sad!
MsE - good point. Me = twiglet: 5'7" / 59kg / ? / ? / mid-foot probably, wears orthotics for overpronation
I keep trying to put on a bit more muscle but forgetting to eat protein (or do enough weights, which I hate).Re. the injury thing again, it remnds me that when I did cope well with 50mpw I was running mostly on trails and hills. Which corroborates the idea that developing the supporting muscles is a good plan for me.
luna man wrote (see)
Re. the injury thing again, it remnds me that when I did cope well with 50mpw I was running mostly on trails and hills. Which corroborates the idea that developing the supporting muscles is a good plan for me.
Spot on, the injury-prone might find that doing as many as poss of your miles off road helps a lot. Even gravel paths and farm tracks are more forgiving than the evil tarmac
XPS - 29.59 would be a superb achievement, and would have been good for 6th place this year. There are some v impressive runners at the pointy end of GUCR. Good luck, interested to hear about your training as it progresses.
21m @ 7.40 bagged this morning along the canal which is still frozen. A fairly gentle plod with the last 3m in 21min which is nice.....
....so nice that it's time to add some provisional targets
07.11.10 - SteveC1975 - Regents Park 10K - Around 40 Mins - 40:14 - job done21.11.10 - AfE - Abbey Dash 10k - sub-39 as a marker/indicator - 38:22 - job done21.11.10 - BOTF - Brighton 10k - under 40:30 - 40:02 - job done05.12.10 - GE - Regents Park 10k - sub 38:30 - ?? - job ??05.12.10 - SteveC1975 - Regents Park 10K - Sub 40 Mins - ?? - job ??23.01.11- Barry B Gloucester Marathon - Sub 3:1523.01.11 - AfE - Brass Monkey Half - sub-1:2523.01.11 - XPS - Brass Monkey half - sub-1:2423.01.11- efc-col Four Villages Half Marathon-sub 1.2505.02.11 - Lorenzo - Thames Trot 50 - Sub 8 hours05.02.11 - Poacher - Thames Trot 50 - sub 813.02.11 - Matchstick Man - Wokingham HM - 1h23m13.02.11 - SBD - Wokingham HM - 1:2413.02.11 - BOTF - Wokingham HM - 1:25, but seeing the two entries above...?13.02.11 - dm1974 - Liversedge Half - 1.29.5920.02.11 - BOTF - Bramley 20 - sub 2:2506.03.11 - Scooby - Marathon Catalunya - 3:09:5906.03.11 - MsE - Bath HM - Sub 1.3006.03.11 - Joolska - Bath HM - tbc...06.03.11 - dm1974 - Haweswater Half Marathon - 1.29.5913.03.11 - Knight RIder - Retford Half Marathon - 1:26.xx13.03.11 - SBD - MIlton Keynes - 1:2419.03.11 - Badbark - Larne Half Marathon - Sub 1:3019.03.11 - Speedy - Stafford HM - 1.31.5920.03.11 - FINgers - Reading Half Marathon - Sub 1:2620.03.11 - Ormeski - Reading Half Marathon - Sub 1:2520:03.11 - BOTF - Reading HM - 1:2520.03.11 - SteveC1975 - Brentwood Half Marathon - Sub 1:2827.03.11 - Keir - Paddock Wood HM - Sub 1:2510.04.11 - FW - Chris Hoy HM Edinburgh - Sub 1:2010.04.11 - FINgers - Brighton Marathon - 3:09:5910.04.11 - Knight Rider - Brighton Marathon - Sub 3.1510.04.11 - B&B vs MM in the Regency 10k Smackdown! - Sub39.10.04.11 - dm1974 - Paris - 3.14.5917.04.11 - Race Jase - VLM - not sure on target just yet, but hopefully I'll be in PB (sub2:39) shape.17.04.11 - SBD - VLM - 2:4917:04.11 - Ant & XPS - VLM - 2:54:5917.04.11 - Joolska - VLM - 2.59.5917:04:11 - AfE - VLM - 2:59:5917.04.11 - Poacher - VLM - 3.0717.04.11 - Lorenzo - VLM - sub 3:1017:04:11 - BOTF - VLM - 3:10 ish17.04.11 - kittenkat - VLM 3.1017.04.11 - Jane326 - VLM 3.1017.40.11- efc-col VLM-sub 3.1017:04:11 - MsE - - VLM - 3.14.5917.04.11 - Speedy - VLM - 3.14.5917.04.11 - SteveC1975 - VLM - 3.14.5917.04.11 - Ormeski - VLM - sub 3.1517.04.11 - Pipes VLM sub-3:1518.04.11 - OsloNeil Boston sub-3:1001.05.11 - Gul Darr - GEAR 10k - sub 4202:05:11 - Badbark - Belfast City Marathon -Sub 3:1008.05.11 - Keir - Essex & Halstead Marathon - Sub 3.1522.05.11 - B&B - Edinburgh Marathon - 3:09:5922.05.11 - Jane326 - Edinburgh Marathon 3.1022.05.11 - XPS - Grand Union Canal Race- 29:59:59 (not a typo!)18.06.11 - Lorenzo - Picnic - sub 4:4502.10.11 - Jane326 - Loch Ness Marathon 3.10
MsE wrote (see)
(Looking around for the thread Guinea Pig, Steve, but unable to see him anywhere to ascertain how his training is coming along...)
Think we might have scared him off.
Did anyone remember to let him out of his cage?
Nice finish to the 21 miles there Poacher.
MsE - Tall, heavy, biomechaniclly suspect, injury-prone heel-striker but seem to be able to cope with a reasonable number of slow miles.
Clearly, I need to be careful where I choose to run when next in Bristol
Impressive 10K there Lunaman - what were the conditions like and how were the splits?
Tempo session today. Thought I'd try the treadmill with the middle 6K of 14K as the tempo effort. So after a 4K warm up, ramped up the speed to 4:00 m/km pace and braced myself for a sweaty 24 minutes. The initial HR of 175 seemed about right but the fact that it kept climbing steadily, reaching 185, was not a good sign. Despite desperate attempts to survive the full 24 minutes I had to admit defeat after 16 mins and decrease the speed down to 4:10 m/km for the last 2K. So perhaps 4:00 is still a tad ambitious for the current fitness levels Still, a good workout ...
SBD - thanks! It was the Andy Reading 10k in Bicester, flat as a pancake, a good PB course if it's not windy. as it goes round an airfield. Not the most exciting route, but it's the second time of running for me, and I like it. Slightly dodgy splits as I forgot to start the garmin for 400m so the first km is an estimate, but something like this:
3:47, 3:45, 3:50, 3:54, 3:38, 3:38 , 3:55, 3:53, 3:51, 3:42
Too fast at 5 and 6k when chasing stuck in no man's land, and paid for that immediately afterwards, but glad I could pick up the pace again in the last 1km at least. I was looking for 3:47 avg, so couldn't ask for much more.
How does the indoor temperature affect you SBD? I can never maintain the same intensity on a treadmill as outside at the same HR.
Excellent run there poach and go easy on that niggle Gul, don't want you back on the bench after working so hard to get back.
MsE - stick to the plan and let each part build over time - it is a very well thought out schedule.
SBD - spookily similar to the treadmill session I just did. 1k warm-up before a planned 4x 4.00m/km pace with 250 rests and 1k warm down. However, due to good mojo ended up doing 5 reps and 8km in total in 35mins.
''Spot on, the injury-prone might find that doing as many as poss of your miles off road helps a lot. Even gravel paths and farm tracks are more forgiving than the evil tarmac '' (I cant work out this quotation thing!)
Poacher - As you know I live in a hilly area and a tend normally to do a lot of runs off road. I find this hard when marathon training because a lot of my routes are not necessarily on tracks but more picking through heather, or stony sheep trails. Therefore, its difficult to get speed up and also difficult to assess the effort/benefit of each run. I did 8 miles off road on Sunday in bad conditions and was really tired but it took more than twice as long as the same distance on the road.
Does sound like a good workout SBD. You've started your schedule, right? I'm sure the heat of treadmill running must play havoc with the HR. At least when running outside one has a little air cooling, at your pace anyway
My stats: 5'11"ish / 150lbs / muscle mass? / body fat % ? / natural heal striker but working towards midfoot. Into football, food, girls (for the record) and running and running and running. I think the world would be a better place if there was peace and love. This is Mr Universe, right?
knight rider wrote (see)
looking forward to this marathon compaign regardless of wether I'm a Supper SIx'er
You still thinking about AC's pie video KR?!
Lovely run Poacher. And nice reps from you, AC.
What pace did you get for your first tempo run, MsE?
Come on Steve. Where art thou?
Minni - I feel quite fortunate in that I've got a cycle trail close by where I can do most of my longer runs - it's flat and sections of it are non-tarmac. I wouldn't abandon your off road runs though, just may be mix them up with some runs on the evil tarmac.
AC - Great minds think alike
SBD - thanks! It was the Andy Reading 10k in Bicester, flat as a pancake, a good PB course if it's not windy. as it goes round an airfield. Not the most exciting route, but it's the second time of running for me, and I like it. Slightly dodgy splits as I forgot to start the garmin for 400m so the first km is an estimate, but something like this:3:47, 3:45, 3:50, 3:54, 3:38, 3:38 , 3:55, 3:53, 3:51, 3:42Too fast at 5 and 6k when chasing stuck in no man's land, and paid for that immediately afterwards, but glad I could pick up the pace again in the last 1km at least. I was looking for 3:47 avg, so couldn't ask for much more.How does the indoor temperature affect you SBD? I can never maintain the same intensity on a treadmill as outside at the same HR.
Interesting - I had thought about doing this race but am not quite in the right mental framework at the moment. I definately get hot and sweaty on the treadmill but having only been using it over the last few weeks haven't really calibrated it against outside running. I need to get a more consistent set of tempo runs in for this marathon campaign and thought the treadmill might help me do this. I might have to try a similar session on the track to see how that compares.
Minni wrote (see)
''Spot on, the injury-prone might find that doing as many as poss of your miles off road helps a lot. Even gravel paths and farm tracks are more forgiving than the evil tarmac '' (I cant work out this quotation thing!)Poacher - As you know I live in a hilly area and a tend normally to do a lot of runs off road. I find this hard when marathon training because a lot of my routes are not necessarily on tracks but more picking through heather, or stony sheep trails. Therefore, its difficult to get speed up and also difficult to assess the effort/benefit of each run. I did 8 miles off road on Sunday in bad conditions and was really tired but it took more than twice as long as the same distance on the road.
Blisters and beer wrote (see)
You've started your schedule, right?
Yes - now officially day 3 of my 18-week P&D schedule. Essentially the 55-70 schedule I've used before but I'm still toying with a) doing a 6 day version of the 70-85 schedule; b) adding in more tempo runs so that I'm doing at leat one tempo session per week. Will probably experiment over the new few weeks and see what seems feasible.
Minni - On the occasion I got to chat to Steve Smythe on last year's SSX and from the postings I saw from him he was a proponent of as much off-road running as possible. That meant a lot of trail / off-road running and even hitting the grass verge if there was one available. Now this is partly down to the fact that he's in his early 50's and he's fully aware that pounding pavements is not that good for him personally but his long runs were coming in at over 8min miling and this was from someone who did 2h46 in April. His high mileage days are behind him now and he was aiming at 70mpw max
LunaMan - stunning 10k time there Are you sure you're on the right thread?