Sub 3h15

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  • Gul Darr said:
    4th place was around 3:15 which I think is more realistic for me, but you never know who will turn up or how it will go on the day, I guess.
    Do you have a pace plan? In 2016 I ran London in 3:06 and my fastest parkrun that year was 19.21. You have run a 18:23 this year which is over 80% age graded and that predicts pretty much a 3 hour dead on marathon. I know those predictions tend to be a bit fast but I would have thought 3:05 was not an unreasonable target to set out with. 
  • G-DawgG-Dawg ✭✭✭
    Worth bringing the list in again as races are ongoing...

    24th March Ashby 20
    DT (Session of some sort)

    30th March World Masters Half
    Speedy Goth

    31st March Cranleigh 15/21
    Lorenzo (haven't decided what distance I'll do yet)

    7th April Manchester Marathon
    StevieWh (2:45)
    Nicko1981 (2:59)
    Ian (3:09)

    7th April Centurion 5 
    DT (sub 31)

    14th April Boston UK Marathon
    Gul Darr (Sub 3:15)

    15th April Boston Marathon (the hilly one)
    SBD (2:59)
    Lorenzo (3:10)

    28th April London Marathon
    OO54 (Sub 2, win, beat Mo Farah and get to the bar early to get the beers in!)
    G-Dawg (3.05)
    DT (Sub 3)
    Speedy Goth (2.59.59)
    Poacher (finish)

    5th May GEAR 10k
    Gul Darr (sub 39)

  • Gul DarrGul Darr ✭✭✭
    PMJ - Probably aiming for somewhere around 7:20/m. Maybe this time it will go according to plan...
  • G-DawgG-Dawg ✭✭✭
    Gul - Your training volumes are amazing and your uplift in pace on some of your long runs is something I just can't to do.
    I seem to recall we're similar in age (51)? The pointers are there that you can smash 3.15 and with good fuelling on the day and decent weather, you'll score a really good number.

    I hit the wall once only, that was in 2006. Since then my gel and fuel strategy appears to have served me well after the lessons learned that day.

    I carbo-load well the few days before (not the whole week).

    I drink electrolyte (Nuun tablets) for a couple of days before and sip it as I travel/walk to the event on race day. Beetroot juice is also taken in the days before.

    I usually have the first gel (SIS Go Gels) at 9 miles into the race and then take one every 45 mins after that, only got through 3 in Chicago (carried 4).

    For water, I drink to thirst but make sure I take some on early doors to ensure I have a good hydration base.

    If it's hot like in Boston and London, I'll drink at every water station and also sip the energy drink despite having not trained with it. I'm usually OK with whatever is on offer and I'm comfy knowing that as a big sweater, I'm getting some extra salt or whatever is in there back into the body. I usually have tide marks showing on my kit after a warm marathon, showing how much salt comes out.

    If it is hot, I always pour water over my head but also (and this was a top tip from a mate) over my thighs. Definitely seemed to help in a hot London, I've seen the elite boys and girls do it.

    So there you go, you probably do all of that or similar already but it may be of use to some lurkers on here too. I'm also interested to hear what others do for fuelling on the lead up to and on race day? Always learning!!
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    edited March 19

    I seem to have got my carb loading sorted in a way that suits me now after trial and error and go big Thursday and Friday and Saturday I kind of eat more carbs than I normally would but make less of an effort to really get them in me.

    I tend to take a gel before the start and a gel about every 4 miles. I do it much sooner than 9 miles, just because the further into the race the harder I find it is to get them down me and also I want to keep a steady drip feed throughout.

    This year however I will be fuelling using the maurten system. I will be having a 360 drink about 40 minutes before the start and then a gel every 25 minutes.

    I wonder what the science is on the water/thigh thing then? I've not seen that before.

    Session over lunch of 10 x 3 mins off 1 min progressing from 10k pace, finishing strong. Felt solid.


  • StevieWhStevieWh ✭✭✭

    Gul - That is an incredible long run, sub 3.15 is definitely in your capabilities and you could well be a lot quicker.

    With carb loading I try to reduce carbs Mon/Tues then build them up from Wednesday. Thurs/Friday I try to get as many in as possible then Saturday just eat what ever is available without stuffing myself. Also start drinking PH Hydration tablets from Thursday to top the electrolytes up.

    Race Day I have breakfast of jam on toast with a bottle of SIS Go Energy, then sip an electrolyte drink on my way to the start. One gel to the start the 5 gels split evenly so roughly every 4.3 miles (I set my watch to remind me). Two of these will be caffeine gels. I also now take two PH Hydration capsules per hour as I am a salty sweater.

    I also like G-Dawg pour water over my thighs, its your biggest muscle so the one that is carrying the most heat. Pouring over your wrists also helps as that cools the blood going back to your heart, seemed to work really well for me in London!

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Stevie, are these the capsules you take-

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Precision-Hydration-SweatSalts-Electrolyte-Capsules/dp/B07G1RYJH5

    I am always dubious about just one form of substance ie sodium (as opposed full electrolyte tablet) as this can lead to an electrolyte imbalance which is where cardiac arrest happens.

    Maybe I've missed understood some science??

  • StevieWhStevieWh ✭✭✭
    Yep those are the ones! I hadn't really looked into the science that deeply, they do contain potassium as well? I take SiS electrolyte gels so hopefully that keeps everything in balance!
  • SBD.SBD. ✭✭✭

    Interesting on the salt capsules Stevie - is there a trick to swallowing the tablets on the run and do you need fluid to wash them down?

    I carb-load Thursday to Saturday, ending at lunch-time on the Saturday, aim for 200g of CHO as a pre-race breakfast 4 hours before the start, 150ml of sports drink just before the gun and then gels every 5 miles.

    But then I got cramp at 20 miles in my last marathon and this is still playing on my mind!

    You have the potential to run a lot quicker than 3:15 Gul but you clearly need the confidence of a Sub 3:15 finish under your belt.  Why not run the first half at 3:15 pace and then, if all is going well, pick the pace up at half-way (to eg 3:10 pace) and then again at 20 miles (to eg 3:05 pace).

    Intervals today.  Five setsof 1200m with 600m recoveries with the paces coming out at 3:50, 3:50, 3:45, 3:45 and 3:40 m/km.  4K w/u and w/d to give just over 10 miles for the day.

    Looking forward to the taper, just a few more key sessions to nail first.

  • G-DawgG-Dawg ✭✭✭
    Nice going SBD, solid.

    Bought my first pair of dedicated race shoes and they arrived today. Nike Zoom Fly Flyknit, the model below the 4% Vaporfly.

    Took them out for a10 miler and they felt nice. Probably won’t wear them again until race week.
    All of the 10 miles were sub-7 and averaged out at 6.46. Pleased with that as rush hour traffic was a nuisance and my head torch ran out of juice just when I needed it.

    In my quest for margin gains, I’m researching Maurten 360 drink sachets and Maurten 100 gels. Reviews are very positive.
  • StevieWhStevieWh ✭✭✭
    edited March 19
    I love a marginal gain G-Dawg!

    SBD they are fairly big capsules so do take a bit of swallowing. I take them with fluid at a water station and just slow slightly for a couple of strides. Seemed to work in Abingdon as I finished strong .The real test will be Berlin where I suspect it will be warmer. Very impressive reps, I thought were your splits for a second though!

    Tempo was a bit naff tonight. Not my usual route so undulating and plenty of roads to cross. Couldn't seem to get myself up to tempo effort and the HR showed that. 6.40avg for 164 so slightly below MP effort. Rest day tomorrow, onto the next one!
  • Gul DarrGul Darr ✭✭✭
    GD / DT / Stevie / SBD - thanks for that. Yes we're a similar age GD (soon to be 53). I've had big positive splits in all my marathons to date - hopefully this time it will be different. This will only be the second one in which I've used gels; maybe it will help. Another thing I've decided to change this time is to ditch the caffeine depletion leading up to the day and a big hit on the morning. Pleased that this marathon is close enough to drive there on race day, so will be able to have my usual breakfast.
    DT - good lunchtime session.
    SBD - nice 1200m reps. Not sure if I'll do those or not after missing Monday's run. Probably not going to take much of a taper next week, other than cutting back the long run. Calf okay now, I presume?
    GD - nice way to break in your race shoes - great pace.
    Stevie - never mind about the tempo run. Still good training.
    13 slow miles today averaged 8:46/m.
  • Gul DarrGul Darr ✭✭✭
    I forgot to say that on checking GFA times yesterday, I noticed that M50-54 GFA time is 3:15 - I could have sworn it was 3:20 after they were revised a year or so ago, but that's M55-59. 
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    edited March 20

    It's hard work doing tempos to pace, Stevie on the streets. I never do as well as I can at the racecourse.

    G-dawg, the drink in particular for me is a big one. I struggle to get my toast and jam down me on race day, and having spent 30  mins doing so before Yorkshire, I vomited it all back up within 30 minutes. A drink that contains 80g of carbs and little else will be a huge boost on the morning. If you are going to try it and the gels I would suggest getting used to it asap as the taste is pretty vile. The drink is like a pint of water with huge amounts of sugar. I can just neck it now. The gel tastes the same as well as is like a proper gel as opposed to the juice consistency of the usual gels, so again, needs some practice. If you want the drink, I recommend the achillies heel site as it lets you buy single portions for £2.90, which works out cheaper than the unit price of a box from other sites. I bought 6 just because postage was about £4.

    I am interested in the beet shots. How do people load on these and what exactly do they bring to the table?

    SBD, decent going. That's about the pace I did my recent 1k reps.

    MLR of 9-10 miles planned later.

  • G-DawgG-Dawg ✭✭✭
    Good info DT. I ordered a sample box for £10 (plus £2 pp) just this morning from Sigma Sports. Has one gel, a 160 sachet and a 320 sachet, plus a mixing bottle. 

    I too struggle to eat on race day mornings. I force down a Clif bar and a few Clif Bloks so the drink will be an interesting addition.

    If I get on with the sample, I'll buy a multipack of sachets as I can use them on the ultra in the summer.

    I've not tried the Beet shots, I just drink a carton of Beet It during the 2 days before. Amazing how the first pee after the race is a deep purple colour despite not having taken the beetroot drink for over 24 hours.
  • nicko1981nicko1981 ✭✭✭
    Hope you are keeping you spirits up Badbark - that's a savage plank and squats session, hope that you can nail that #200 PR soon.

    Good training recently Stevie with your Fartlek and long run with MP. Looking good for Manchester. That tempo session sounds pretty good to me considering the roads etc, a strong pace.

    Congrats to Mrs Lorenzo on the PB at the weekend; and to yourself for a really solid time.

    SBD
    - hope tomorrow's massage sorts the calf issues out, congrats on getting the weight down you should easily shift that 1kg with the mileage that you do. Snappy intervals yesterday, looking very strong even with the calf niggles.

    Gul 
    that's a seriously good 22 miler. I agree with others that you should be able to achieve a result well faster than 3:15. Re: gel carrying if you don't want a gel belt; I was wearing a buff on my head, doubled up, at Farnborough and it was perfect for carrying a couple of gels without any negative effect (though I did look like I had a massive padded bandage on my head). Probably not good if it's warm though.

    Strong mileage last week DT, good mixing up of the run/bodypump/spin - keeping it varied!

    G-Dawg - that's a great 10miler in the new shoes - and with traffic/darkness that's impressive.

    Talking carb loading / race fuelling I go similar to Stevie - reduced/minimal carbs early in the week; then loading up Thur/Fri, reduced quantity on Saturday but keeping the percentage of carb in the diet high. I drink a High-5 energy source once a day on the carb days as well. Race morning porridge with a bit of fruit; and an energy drink on the way to the race, possibly with a oat bar thing. This year I will be using the Maurten drink as got a couple from AH (will test it before a long run this week). Gel at the start, then one every 30 minutes approximately (High-5 gels, mix of aqua/normal and caffeine ones) - it's a lot to carry but I feel I need the fuel during the race and my gel belt is good enough to hold them. Never taken the salt capsules, maybe something to look at.

    Rested Monday as still beat up from Sunday, so just some light weights and gym nonsense; devastating spin class before track yesterday which made the (1600/800/400) x 2 session pretty tough; 9 miles with a warmup and cooldown - all reps about where I wanted them. Just had a horrible HIIT session at the gym, so pretty low energy right now but might push out some MP miles on the treadmill later on this evening. Achilles is a little sore so I may let it rest and concentrate on getting a long run in tomorrow (20+) rather than pushing the MP as I did a lot of that on Sunday. I'll then just get in an 18 with pacey finish on Monday at that will be it for the LRs.

    Heading to the road relays as a reserve on Saturday as we have strong teams; I think a few of you guys will be up there too?
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭


    Nicko, what's AH? So are you travelling to Sutton with the prospect of not getting a race? Sounds like some quite hard core training!

    I really do think it's worth anyone doing a mara getting hold of a 360 drink for race morning, even if you don't plan on using the gels.

  • nicko1981nicko1981 ✭✭✭
    AH = Achilles Heel, recommended by your good self. I won't use the gels, heard about them being thick which is not for me. High 5 gels are perfect.

    Yes, I agreed to be the travelling reserve for Sutton; my flatmate is running and a few club friends so I agreed to drive them up and be on standby. I haven't done many race meets with the club so thought it would be a nice day out; and a change of scenery if I'm just going to put in an easy run.
  • First track session today since Apr 20th, 2017 (isn't the internet great at such things) so almost 2 years. Felt like it: the plan was originally 6*800m with a lap recovery but I decided to up it to 8*800m but soon saw sense and decided to back to 6 and when I needed 2 laps recovery after the 4th rep I cut it back to 5. Still, 4000m of effort is decent enough and the times pleasantly surprised me (3:07 to start with, way too fast but then 3:13s and 3:14s which isn't fast by many standards but is faster than I need to do for a decent 5k so it fulfils the aim of training faster than I intend to race.
  • SBD.SBD. ✭✭✭

    Good work on the track PMJ - they can only get faster.  Which track are you using?

    The gym work sounds like a distraction nicko but a good quality track session.  Hope you manage to get the long run in.

    I tried the beet shots in 2013 before London.  Must have drunk the stuff for a week and then despite being in 3:05 shape convinced myself to set off at Sub 3 pace.  Crashed and burned horribly to record my worst ever marathon time of 3:14.

    Pre-race breakfast for me is:

    Porridge - 70g
    Bananas - 200g
    Raisins - 100g
    Orange Juice - 330ml

    So 200g CHO and water and coffee for fluid replenishment.  I have this 4 hours before the race and then nothing before the 150ml of Sports Drink just before the gun.

    Hope you got out for the MLR DT.

    More good miles Gul.  It's good to get some quick miles in to the mix at this stage but perhaps you can just do some strides. Calf still not happy but it seems happier at speed!

    A good tempo session nonetheless Stevie.

    15 mile MLR this afternoon in what was nice running conditions for a change (warm and light breeze).  Ran my regular undulating route and pushed the pace on the downhills and uphills up to tempo effort.  The legs felt surprisingly bouncy today and the faster sections felt relatively easy - all very strange!  Average pace for the run of 7:38 m/m.

    Boston numbers announced yesterday - I'm number 5023 - so only 5022 runners ahead of me with a qualifying time faster than 2:59:35!  At least I just make Wave 1 (Corral 6).

  • G-DawgG-Dawg ✭✭✭
    I was in wave 1, SBD but just behind in coral 7 or 8, whichever is the last one. Great experience. Look out for the fighter jets at the end of the national anthem, they were perfectly timed with the final note.

    WFH today and managed to hit the streets by 6pm. Was going to do an 8 but extended it to a 10 as I was only doing steady pace so went for a higher volume midweek, with 20 planned for Saturday and will hit 50 for the week. 7.16 pace tonight on the bumpier out and back route.
  • SBD - I'm in Wave 2, corral 1 which I'm seeing as a good thing as I'll have an extra lie-in vs you folks in Wave 2! All getting rather close now.

    DT - I'm a fan of the beet shots, but I also like the taste of beetroot juice. I've tended to buy 6 at the Expo and then have 1 a day for the 4 days beforehand, 1 before I leave the house and 1 at the start. No idea whether it has an effect or not! I'm with SBD on the porridge and raisins for the pre-race breakfast followed by a banana at the start. I've experimented with having a strong black coffee at the start of the last couple of races and it seems to have had a positive effect. Only water during the race.

    Easy run Monday, 5 commuting miles yesterday and then 7.5 commuting miles this morning. Might have a rest day tomorrow as I've got an early morning meeting.

    Tempted to go on the People's Vote March on Saturday, so might also take the opportunity to be a parkrun tourist somewhere in London - any recommendations for a fast flat one?
  • SBD. said:

    Good work on the track PMJ - they can only get faster.  Which track are you using?


    I run on the Little Marlow track. The track used to be at High Wycombe M40 junction 4, a short jog warm-up form my house. Of course, being set in an area that is so accessible it was never going to last and it is now a Waitrose and bus hub and the track is now in the flood plains. When it was first built, it was passed to a charity to run (https://www.adventurelearning.org.uk) who run Longridge activity centre nearby and other as well) but they stopped doing so when it became too expensive so now it is with Serco (https://www.serco.com/uk/sector-expertise/citizen-services/leisure-services) who look after nearby Bisham Abbey.

    Long story short, it seems that if you rock up at lunchtime midweek it is pretty much open and free to use. 


    In terms of the other thread, carb loading and marathon fueling, my experience is that I was happiest when I had an unchanged schedule. For an 18-week training plan, I'd eat normally and run normally. I didn't see why a change a few days before a marathon would help. If anything, in the taper I found that I needed to eat less to avoid gaining weight. I do have a small pouch that I can zip a couple of gels into and I take a couple on my longest training runs and do the same when I race but it is more about the mental side so when you get to the end game it is helpful to have some distraction so getting the gel out of the pouch, ripping the top off, sucking it up, stuffing the waste back in the pouch and finding some water to remove the aftertaste takes a mile or so.

  • Gul DarrGul Darr ✭✭✭
    PMJ - nice to return to the track (I imagine!)
    SBD - very good 15 miler. Always good to get your number; that's a lot of fast runners!
    GD- solid steady run.
    Lorenzo - not sure if I prefer being herded into a pen or a corral!
    Decided to indulge myself this morning and swapped the 1200m reps for my favourite 400m tempo intervals. Did 32 reps, plus a few miles warm-up/down to make 15 miles in total, average overall pace of 7:36/m.
  • nicko1981nicko1981 ✭✭✭
    Gul Darr said:
    I forgot to say that on checking GFA times yesterday, I noticed that M50-54 GFA time is 3:15 - I could have sworn it was 3:20 after they were revised a year or so ago, but that's M55-59. 
    I noticed this the other day, almost certain they have changed the times now as 18-39 is sub 3; could have sworn it was 3:05. Also 32 reps?! wowo.

    Maurten sachets arrived this morning so decided to test one before long run. I see what you mean DT, the taste takes some getting used to, there's no flavour at all, just sickly sweet. Seem to do they job though as no stomach upset and I got through the 22miles taking a couple of Hi5 gels later on to practice what I will do on the day. Slow and tough getting that distance in after doing the same on Sunday but I am happier for getting the volume in. Legs now useless.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    edited March 21
    Gul, what race are you referring to re gfa time? There's an article that went up on runners world yesterday which sets out gfa requirements for all majors. 

    Nicko, that must have been tough after Sunday, good work. Still, when full of nerves, easier to get down than solid food. 

    my only experience of beet juice (which i find repulsuve) was when i drank 1 litre 2 hours before a 10k. I was violently sick as i crossed line in finish funnel and it was bright red. It was a hot day and people thought it was blood and that i was in serious bother. 

    So Boston numbers work based on qualifying time? So fastest qualifier is number 1? 

    Easy 9 last night, then 4 over lunch folliwed by a spin and bodypump double tonight. 
  • SBD.SBD. ✭✭✭


    DT - Yes, your Boston number is based on your ranking according to qualifying time or a more recent improved time.   They start at 101, so I think 1-100 are for the elites.  Last year there were c. 1,800 runners that finished under 3 hours, so clearly everyone takes it easy at Boston!

    Rather you than me on the Maurten nicko - sounds disgusting!   Good work on the 22 miler.  Taper  time now?

    That's a lot of 400m reps Gul - what pace were you running those at?

    PMJ - I had forget the handy cross track was no more! Must check out the new track sometime.

    Wave 2, Corral 1 sounds like a good result Lorenzo - you get to start from the front with a clear road ahead and get a lie in!

    That's a pretty quick 10 miler G-D.  Will remember to look out for the fighter jets.

    Recovery miles (6 and 4) today with a sports massage in-between.  No magic cure for the tight calf so a bit of caution required over the next week but it should hopefully sort itself out during the taper!

  • Gul DarrGul Darr ✭✭✭
    DT - sorry, should have said London GFA!
    SBD - just be careful with that calf; don't want to take any risks at this stage. The 400m reps were 10k pace efforts off 200m recoveries; but I didn't take any splits, so no idea if that's how they turned out.
    Ended up doing another 20+ miler today after all (that really will be the last one!) 9 miles @ 8:51/m and 11 miles @ 8:01/m. Makes 70 miles for the week. Three weeks on Sunday till Boston UK :)
  • OO54OO54 ✭✭✭
    Sorry to have been off piste all week caring for my daughter. She is doing fine and the specialist confirmed no surgery needed on her fractured cheek. She also has a newly decorated kitchen thanks to dad!
    I don't have much to add on the fuelling except I don't use gels in training and get by on 3-4 race gels these days (I also can eat any variety). My pre race meal the day before is usually taken early c4pm to allow digestion. My favourite race day breakfast is porridge with honey.

    I've sneaked out for a 9 miler around Greenwich park everyday this week getting faster each time. So I should be on for a 60 mile week. Still haven't managed a long run since Seville but maybe this Sunday.
    Glad you enjoyed the track PMJ, and jealous of those shoes GDawg but I'm just too tight.

  • G-DawgG-Dawg ✭✭✭
    Really pleased to hear the youngster is on the mend, OO. Nice running on the proper side of the river too, I grew up in South East London.

    Getting excited for the Boston boys, I'm having flashbacks whenever they mention it. I'll chime in with any small tips if I think of any.
    Not a tip as such, but something to consider. They transport you to the start in a convoy of yellow school buses. The gap between the seats was really small, so be prepared for quite a cramped 26 mile drive. Find a short person to sit next to, you'll have more space to spread your legs out.  B)

    After back to back 10 milers Tuesday and Wednesday, I binned the track last night and just did a 5 mile recovery run with a few stride (7.36 pace). I have a 20 planned for tomorrow and always feel a track session in my legs on LSR day, so I want to feel a little fresher for this one.
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