Sub 3h15

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  • OO54OO54 ✭✭✭
    edited November 19
    Gul I would definitely keep up the swimming if you have the time, it certainly works for me on rest or easy run days.
    Bad luck G Dawg, a lot of it about now that temps have dropped. 
    Less than 4 weeks until Malaga Mara so planning another 50+ week. 
    Well done DT you are a lucky chap to still be capable of PBs.

  • Gul DarrGul Darr ✭✭✭
    Decided to do some tempo intervals this morning. 1 mile w/u, 9 miles of 400m tempo / 400m easy and 1 M w/d. Didn't take splits, but average pace over the 9 miles of intervals/recoverues was 7:08/m. Nice to do some faster running again :)
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Hope you clear that lurgy soon enough, g-dawg.

    OO, yep though the margin of pb is getting less these days so my days may soon be numbered. It's why I have a rule that everytime I get a pb I have a bottle of champagne.

    Gul, how many 400s was that? 9m seems a long time to be doing 400s.

    Quads are still a bit sore today. Scheduled to get a 10m in but may downgrade that to thursdays 8 and do 10 then, not least as I also have more time on Thursday.

  • Gul DarrGul Darr ✭✭✭
    DT- hope the quads benefit from the downgrade :) I did 18 x 400m this morning, but nothing too speedy, maybe 1:3x per interval, plus a full 400m recovery at easy pace. Once base training is over, I would tend to do 400m/200m tempo intervals, so can fit even more reps in :)
  • Leslie HLeslie H ✭✭✭
    edited November 19
    Dt cracking pace I sure there are are a few more Pb's left yet if you work that speed especially some work longer work around 6m/mile pace, enjoy the champagne !

    Gul cracking reps no hobnailed boots but I guess but still a massive session  and 85 mile/week will be some going ..

    Had a rest day yesterday as my daughter had her tonsils out ,all well and back home now to recover.
    Got 45 m last week but with nightshift following the 13 which was 12 hrs after a hard speed session  I was whacked and I needed a rest day anyway.

    Looking at running watches again and a Garmin 735xt and a 245 seem to be around the 200 quid mark anybody any preference as to which to go for ?




  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Thanks, Leslie. Based on that pace I should be in line for 5k, 10k and half pbs really, but then it doesn't always work quite that way.

    I was led to believe that they didn't remove tonsils these days. When I was kid they'd do it as a first step almost.

    I have the garmin 645. I upgraded to it for all the fancy add ons like the lactate threshold detection etc. That turned out to be a load of bollocks and ultimately I use it exactly the same way as my old garmin.

    I got into my stride over lunch time and ended up getting the 10m done and dusted. Quads loosened off after a couple of miles.

    Out tonight for the footy and hopefully just for once Wales manage not to bottle one of these all or nothing qualification games. I don't think they have ever won a game like this over the last 50 years with numerous attempts.

  • Gul DarrGul Darr ✭✭✭
    OO - sorry, I missed your post yesterday. I think I'll definitely keep up at least some of the swimming if I decide to go for a 6 or 7 day week, but it's more a question of what to do if I stick to the 5 week days only.
    Leslie - no experience of those watches. Interesting comments from DT!
    DT - nice 10 miler after all. You will be chuffed with the Wales result :)
    4 mile recovery run plus swim and sauna today. Taking it a bit easier ready for Saturday :)
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    edited November 20

    What's Saturday, Gul?

    Last night was all a bit surreal, Hungary were awful. I'm amazed they got themselves in the position they were in going into last nights game. I was expecting a degree of drama but it all went very well.

    6M progressive over lunchtime, working through the easy pace range starting with an 8.20 then ending with a 6.50 with incremental gains mile by mile. Felt quite nice and just about manageable in my groggy state.

  • Leslie HLeslie H ✭✭✭
    DT my watch has nothing on it so felling left out lol but you could well be right about gimmicks. Nice post beers progression run.
    As for the Tonsils you have to have so a many throat infections ( 4 I think) in a year to be referred , but that was 18 months ago and she had been fine the last while but If you don't go you are back at the bottom of an 18 month waiting list again. I wasn't keen on it tbh especially as she was fine this last while and kids tend to have less problems as they get into the teenage years and its as you say done much less now as it isn't very effective but there ya go !
    GUL nice recovery run and swim.

    Well from feeling fine last night went out with the club and we ran 10 x 400m with very short jogged recoveries of about 45 secs between reps  this proved very tough as I'm used to longer static recoveries or a walk .Most were around 90 secs with an 88 to finish.


    but I had a nasty stomach bug this morn , went to the toilet at 7:30am then went about another 20 times in the next 2 hrs , puked 3 times ,sweat pouring of me ,lay on the bathroom floor for about an hr !  Only got out of bed an hr ago so don't think I need any more "runs" today lol  Feeling a fair bit better and lighter... now thankfully and won't be reheating chicken/boiled rice any time soon again , lesson learned ! Ironically in the past it was always me warmed about reheating and wouldn't do it ...should have listened to my own advice.



  • OO54OO54 ✭✭✭
    Leslie I bought the 735 for lap swimming. Its thinner than the old 235 so less bulky on the wrist but otherwise similar. I'd also wait for black friday. Got mine on Amazon  last year for about 150...My wife has had a very similar bug Leslie. It passed very quickly. 
    Brutal club sesh last night. Was pleased with my speed but the hip is a bit tight today. Gentle plod tonight.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    Gul - a P and D week spread over 5 consecutive days? So 2xmlr, 1x long, LT or GA run, plus a recovery ? Is a big 5 dsys in a row. But then it would be daft to make it 6 and just add a 6m recovery on the 6th, best to spread the sessions out over the 6, if you opt for 6 days.
  • Gul, I agree with TR's comments. I cannot recall the full details of P&D but if you are doing the up to 85 miles per week that has a number of doubles in it and has no rest days (so even the recovery days are 5 or 6 miles). The important thing with P&D is to read the book and understand the philosophy and then you can adjust the schedule to match your timetable but still keep the key sessions. Looking back, I managed about 60 miles a week doing 6 days a week with no doubles (so e.g. Monday 5 recovery, Tuesday 21 long run, Wednesday 7 GA, Thursday track, Friday 7 GA, Saturday parkrun, Sunday off) 
  • Gul DarrGul Darr ✭✭✭
    DT - nice progressive run. Parkrun on Saturday :) Hope to see you there PMJ :)
    Leslie - yuck, sounds hideous. Hope you're okay now.
    TR / PMJ - yes, if it were over just 5 days it wouldn't strictly be P&D. It's basically the schedule I did for Boston earlier this year. This is a typical week:
    Mon: 12M MLR
    Tue: 16M MLR
    Wed: 12M MLR
    Thu: 12M inc. 8 x 1k
    Fri: 21M LR
    Sat: Rest
    Sun: Rest
    So basically replacing the easy and double days with 1 extra MLR and 2 rest days.
    The question is, do I get more recovery out of the 2 rest days rather than  2 or 3 easy days? On the other hand, there is more to recover from!
    MLR today. 12 miles in all, 1 w/u, [email protected]:04 and [email protected]:20.
  • Gul, looks a scary schedule but it seems to suit you. I needed the shorter days to recover from the harder sessions. 

    All my plans indicate I will be at King's Lynn parkrun Saturday morning so if you are about we will meet up. I'm way off your pace at the moment (will do between 21 and 22 for parkrun) and won't be offended if you disappear off into the distance.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited November 21
    Gul - blimey, im the first to advocate strength over speed for numpty level marathon runners like us,  but you cant keep that regime up weekly basis all campaign. Like PMJ says read the book and understand the concepts. If you must do 5 days only then something like mlr, 10 inc LT/vo2/your 1kreps, 6 to 10 easy, mlr, long run ? Or even better an extra easy day before the long run and spread it over 6 days........defo separate the reps and long run. As an m50 its worth including the LT runs too.......just an opinion of course.

    There an episode of marathon talk around episode 200ish with Pete Pf, its a good listen, he explains the book.
  • MsEMsE ✭✭✭
    Gul Darr said:
    DT - nice progressive run. Parkrun on Saturday :) Hope to see you there PMJ :)
    Leslie - yuck, sounds hideous. Hope you're okay now.
    TR / PMJ - yes, if it were over just 5 days it wouldn't strictly be P&D. It's basically the schedule I did for Boston earlier this year. This is a typical week:
    Mon: 12M MLR
    Tue: 16M MLR
    Wed: 12M MLR
    Thu: 12M inc. 8 x 1k
    Fri: 21M LR
    Sat: Rest
    Sun: Rest
    So basically replacing the easy and double days with 1 extra MLR and 2 rest days.
    The question is, do I get more recovery out of the 2 rest days rather than  2 or 3 easy days? On the other hand, there is more to recover from!
    MLR today. 12 miles in all, 1 w/u, [email protected]:04 and [email protected]:20.
    Crikey, Gul. Looks like all aerobic running with the exception of the Thursday threshold session?  Is that deliberate, eg, you break down if you do more than one workout a week?  What TR said is really wise about factoring in age so you have relative rest/hard days and stuff that brings speed up.  We lose so much muscle mass as soon as we hit 40 that it is worth doing something to offset it if you are going to put in all those miles.  I turned to weight training which I know it isn't for everyone but it is a form of strength building that is gentle on my joints.
  • OO54OO54 ✭✭✭
    Nice to hear from you MSE. Your rehab seems to be going ok 👍
  • Gul DarrGul Darr ✭✭✭
    PMJ - great. Have a good evening and I'll see you tomorrow :)
    TR - The 12M MLRs are the easy days :) No, I was probably extremely lucky, but I did manage it. Of course, I might have done even better in Boston if I had spread it out... 
    MsE - good to hear from you. Yes, P&D is light on the faster stuff. Not sure I could stomach the weight training. Maybe the swimming would help.
    Opinion seems fairly clear then that I should ditch the approach of my last campaign :) I could easily break those 5 days up with a couple of swimming and / or recovery run days. The only problem I foresee is that because the gym (with pool) doesn't open early at the weekends, I would need to rely on getting 2 runs in at the weekend and I am already busy the first 2 weekends in January. 

  • G-DawgG-Dawg ✭✭✭
    Hi MsE. Good to see you here.

    A v55 friend at the club followed the P&D plans this year, the 70-odd mile one. He said it was incredibly boring, all that slower running but it did bring about some amazing results. Scored a HM PB after a 75 mile week and broke 3 hours in London.

    I have the book but only use it to build the themes and concepts into my own plan as I don't have the time to be out on so many runs of longer distance.

    Back at it last night with a cheeky 4 miler. First run since NYC two and a half weeks ago. Didn't look at the watch, just let my legs carry me to see how everything felt.
    From the off I was fresh and bouncy, so held back to not get carried away. So nice to run with no calf, ankle, knee pain for the first time in months.

    Came out at 7.13 pace which was a nice surprise. Spits were 7.19, 7.19, 7.09, 7.05, so nice and consistent.

    8 slow miles in the mud planned for tomorrow and then an easy build up back to MLR and LSR distances over the next few weeks as a base mile accumulation before the London campaign kicks in for January.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    The P and D comments made me smile, i was only thinking how much fast and hard running there is each week. But then it depends upon your definition of fast and slow i guess. Im used to doing practically everything apart from the odd tempo or rep session at 8mm plus, which is mp +20% or more according to P snd D.
  • Leslie HLeslie H ✭✭✭
    edited November 23
    MSE welcome back hope you are keeping well and planning your comeback !
    GUL its a lot to do with what fits in with your lifestyle too we all have to try t fit in running when we can .
    Gdawg what was your pal's HM pb to score a sub 3 at London as Id like to know ? glad the pain is easing so you can get back at it.
    TR if most runs are first half +20% then pick it up second half for mara pace +10% from what I remember its not so easy as it looks on P&D .I've more like 3 sessions a week now at max attack with 4 easy days in between .

    Rested for 2 days after my sickness but went to the parkrun this morn.

    First mile was 6:25 then slowed a bit to 6:30 as the second has quite a long hill and the quit monkeys were telling me to ease off as there would be other weeks but a hard push and chasing a 12 year old local club runner who I caught about 2.5 miles and pushed as hard as I could as I knew I was off pace for a sub 20 and this was likely t be the best conditions for a good run this side of xmas so mile 3 was 6:19 and a final push at 5:36 to score a 19:50 and ninth place which is 29 secs faster than 2 weeks ago . Field was more stacked than usual due to the large number from the local club.
    As I came of the bridge to turn sharp right the young lad went wide so I took a tighter line but struggled to hold it and then he turned in  sharp and we nearly had a fender bender but got away with no mishap thankfully , think it was his first 5k and he just missed out on 20 mins !

    My first sub 20 in 2 years and my first one at Parkrun since 2014 so well chuffed , I had set myself a goal of sub 20 by Christmas so another box ticked.


  • G-DawgG-Dawg ✭✭✭
    Great going Leslie, well done today, scorching effort!.

    My friend scored 1.24.30 at the Surrey HM in March, he beat me by 60 secs.
    At London in April he got 2.58, I got 3.01.
    He probably averaged 65 to 70 miles per week for the campaign following P&D, I averaged 43 on 5 varied runs per week.
    Hope that helps?

    Hit the trails today. 8 miles of swamp and mudfest, legs totally caked, loved it.
    Slow return continues.
  • SBD.SBD. ✭✭✭
    edited November 23


    Excellent work on the Sub 20 parkrun Leslie - you're making great progress.  What's the next target?

    Good to hear the legs are working as normal G-D. Hopefully you can build up to the London training without any issues.  What's the approach to get the Sub 3?

    That's a lot of miles over just five days Gul.  If would be better to spread over at least six if you can.  Don't forget the tempo runs and strides as well.

    Hope you're back running MsE?

    Hope the hip has recovered OO and you've been getting the miles in for Malaga.

    Well done on the PB at the Derby 10m DT and some good post race training.  Was the race-day course certified?

    A weeks rest for me and then a gradual rehab build, so 2K, 3K, 5K, 8K, 8K, 10K, 12K and then a 15K that just about felt normal.  Having declared myself fully fit, decided a tempo session was called for yesterday, so 7 miles with the middle 4 at 6:26 m/m pace.  Not sure how I managed 26 of those five weeks ago!  So a bit of work to do before the London training starts.   The additional 4kg I'm now carrying probably doesn't help either!

  • Leslie HLeslie H ✭✭✭
    Gdawg thanks just like to know what real runners did in the build up to their sub 3 , I wonder how much faster he would have went in an easy week ,most wouldn't want to risk an all out half incase they injured themselves and you and your pal's conversions to the mara distance are very impressive.Nice mudbath running !
    SBD Its called raceday magic and without the magic shoes as well so doubly impressive !
    I'm not quite sure the next target yet although a sub 1:30 half has to be a contender so Id need to get some longer tempo's in the next few weeks . No half's about so will be more a training run pb and hope to have a crack at it before year end  !  Nice tempo !
  • Gul DarrGul Darr ✭✭✭
    GD - pleased to hear you're back running with no niggles :) 
    Leslie - great parkrun, no wonder you're chuffed. Sub 90 training HM would be excellent.
    SBD - yes, that was just one particular week I did in February - as you say, there's usually one tempo or interval session a week plus occasional strides. I'm sure you'll be flying by April - don't peak too soon!
    Met up with PMJ at parkrun yesterday - don't think I've seen him since the Raceways Shakespeare Spring Marathon several years ago now :) First parkrun in months and no speed work either, so was pleased with 19:16 and 10th place. Usual slow down after the first lap; not sure as I pressed stop instead of split at the end of the first lap - d'oh! Then had a bit of a ding-dong battle with one of the Jedward brothers and pleased to find a bit of speed left to hold him off at the end. Took a detour home to talk to PMJ as we warmed-down together. 8 miles in all and 6 recovery miles this morning. So I can fit in 7 days sometimes :)
  • Leslie HLeslie H ✭✭✭
    GUL great parkrun with no speedwork and glad you beat a Jedward for extra bonus points did you beat PMJ too ?

    14 mile this morn on very tired legs it was a right pain fest/death march ,quite foggy at the start but no rain so quite nice out.

    29m for an unscheduled cutback week 
  • OO54OO54 ✭✭✭
    Loving the Jedward ref Gul and very good effort. Sir.
    Well done Leslie I ran the same time and also came 9th at my local parkrun. Very tough conditions on the north east coast though, I was expecting to go comfortably sub 19 but nowhere near. I added 18 this morning in the Lakes so 53 for the week and almost taper time for Malaga.
  • My parkrun was 20:25 so Gul was comfortably ahead of me. It is a 3 lap with an out and back section on each lap down a path with lamp-posts so it is easy to see those ahead of you and to get some idea of how the gap changes each lap. 

    Gul and I were at school together back in the mid '80s. He and I were half of the further maths class (just 4 of us) and I am currently only second fastest in the group of 4 (or, as Gul pointed out, at best second fastest).

    10 on Sunday up and back down a small section of the River Great Ouse.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    G-dawg, good to see you getting back to it.

    Nice parkrunning oo, Gul and pmj.

    SBD- some good  tempo paces to be starting from. Yes, Derby was certified and is on RB and po10 so all good.

    Leslie, congrats on getting back to sub 20.

    Been busy end of last week and over weekend so not posted. Did an easy 8m on Thursday then a rare trip to the track Friday evening (race course still under water!) for a Fartlek type run with 15m wu then 6 x 4 mins at hmp with 2 min intervals at steady effort so about 7mm. Had a rest day Saturday then an easy  13 yesterday.

    50m last week which is decent straight out of a race, same planned this week before cutting back ahead of Telford 10k.



  • Gul DarrGul Darr ✭✭✭
    Leslie - well done grinding out the 14 miler on tired legs.
    OO - I should say it's not the real Jedward. I suspect they would wipe the floor with me if they're still running. Nice weekly tally.
    PMJ - it was good to catch up with you. Last time you and I did King's Lynn parkrun together it was a very different story! 
    DT - sounds like a good visit to the track and some good miles clocked up.
    9 miles with 10x100m strides this morning plus swim and sauna.
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