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Gul Darr wrote (see)
Hi, Ant. MM's mammoth posts make for very interesting reading. .
Hi, Ant. MM's mammoth posts make for very interesting reading.
Welcome to newcomers and returnees.
TAR - I tried the FIRST plan for Abo this year but struggled with it and ended up injured, not blaming the plan as I was probably carrying the injury from Stratford , but I found the pacing for some of the runs hard to achieve.
Ant van Oviedo wrote (see)MM - Just read back through your mammoth posts outlining your marathon history, and there is one thing that is bothering me a bit - Liz said to practise, practise, practise your MP as much as you can, no? This was more or less my approach, although I do realise it probably fatigued me more than I was aware of come the big day, hence not reaching my "potential potentail" even though I did nail my planned objective.What exactly did she prescribe re running at MP?I still can't see how running slowly 90% of the time will suddenly transform itself into running 26.2 miles dead fast *runs and hides from the wrath of the wise*
Ant van Oviedo wrote (see)
Hi, Ant. MM's mammoth posts make for very interesting reading. But I am also still slightly confused. I seem to remember when MM said to keep your slow runs slow and save your best for the fast runs that he said that none of his average paces started with a 7 i.e. 8min/mile + or sub 7min/mile. But unless MM was secretly targeting sub 3hr5, surely MP would be 7:xx min/mile? So where does practise, practise, practise MP fit into this? My understanding at the time, was that the fast stuff was to be tempo or faster. Sorry to be a nit-picker, but I think it would really help to understand this.
Hi Sue C and welcome back.
Ok - during the SSX thing I did 68-70% of my running at greater than 8m00s pace and the other proportion at pretty much less than 6min pace because that's how things fell with the RW plan. There was minimal running at MP. This is what Liz (personally) didn't like about the plan and what she tried to rectify when she gave me advice in the 5 weeks between London and Chester.If it the SSX experience had been true Liz Yelling coaching I think you would have seen a lot more MP work fitted into the weekly schedule and a lot less intervals. The ratio of slow to fast(er) would have been v similar (maybe 80 to 20) but instead of doing *just* 20 miles at MP + 60secs I would have been doing blocks of MP work within those runs.If you listen to the Marathon Talk podcasts you'll get a flavour of this theory and also Liz (on FB and Twitter) does give away marathon specific training that she does - for instance 2 x 5 miles at MP within a 17 mile long run.She tries to get people to learn how to run at MP on tired legs so:finishing long runs at MP2hr runs alternating 15mins at MP/15mins at MP + 60secsw/up then 15mins at MP, 5 x 2mins at brisk pace, 15mins at MP, w/down (circa 10 miles)2 x 3 miles at MP within semi or long runsAnt - using TR's "cake" analogy you need to bake the cake (base/aerobic) before you add the icing (MP). If you run at MP or near MP you won't reach your true potential. I know you've had success with a sub 3 result and as a slower runner than you I'm probably not in a position to preach but I do think that you're capable of better results if you could slow down the bulk of your runs
As a practical application / guide I'm looking at Wokingham HM 9 weeks on Sunday and these are the lessons I'm putting into practice:
Not to focus on a specific time goal until maybe 2/3 weeks outThe bulk of my runs at 8m00s pace (I'm aiming at approx 50mpw)Intervals once a week with the club (fartlek, Kenyans, mile reps, hill reps)First 4 weeks just building the milesTest myself in week 2 (parkrun) and week 4 (5 mile) to give an indication of form to lead into:Introducing HM paced work in week 5HM paced running to be contained within the semi-long run (11 miles) and long run (2hrs)So it's v similar to what I'm proposing for a sub 3h15 marathon runner, just adjusting the target pace and length of semi and long runs
Moraghan wrote (see)
A rare opportunity to join in on one of these from its birth is too good to pass up, even though I'm targetting 800m this year so don't really belong! Maybe I part-qualify by virtue of my extended MP runs in base training though.
Matchstick Man wrote (see)
Moraghan wrote (see)A rare opportunity to join in on one of these from its birth is too good to pass up, even though I'm targetting 800m this year so don't really belong! Maybe I part-qualify by virtue of my extended MP runs in base training though.
After a full read back....
kittenkat wrote (see)
Yes, thanks, I've decided I've got to train differently. I can get away with not training really for half distances or below, but it's just stupid to blag times at marathon distance. And I want to run one where I don't curse for the whole of the last 6 miles!
I've "trained" for 7 marathons now and have yet to achieve a curse free last 6 miles! But curse frequency is directly related to adherence to training plan...
3.03 this spring which I hope to beat in April. I post on 3.15 and 3.00 threads as the sub 3 thread goes down to 2.1x these days and I'm just about the slowest person there...
And now I really must read back this new thread, or I can't legitimately say I've been on it from the start!
My half pb is about the same at 1.27.xx and that translated into 3.17 at London last year so you're in the right place!
My goal at VLM was 3:09 to get a GFA place but wheels fell off a little towards the end so having another crack at it in Brighton in the spring.
X-post, Fingers, I was replying to KK!
10M planned for me tonight. In true thread-stylee for the day I listened to my alarm at 6am, peered at the weather forecast and decided the chances of just about freezing temperature were much higher this afternoon than this morning. That extra hour in bed was lovely!
Read back complete.
It may be that I notice because Spanish holidays rarely co-incide with English ones, but Ant seems to get a lot of bank holidays. Jammy beggar.
Welcome to Newbies; Lurkers: join in!
MM - Thanks for that. I like (well, not sure if "like" is the right word) the idea of incorportating stretches @ MP into long and medium runs.I always try to finish the long 'uns with at least 4k @ MP.
Question is...what is MP going to be this time? Eh?
Fingers/KK - You may well have a curse-free marathon one day but it will never be totally free of either terror, pain, misery or frustration. Not if you're doing it properly, that is.
Have I missed something out there? On the negative side, that is...
Jools - That's what you get for living in a Catholic country. Tragically, Boxing Day is NOT a holiday!
An extra hour in bed? Bad, bad girl! Good luck tomight. If that was me, I'd be fretting all day about whether I really should have gone earlier and whether I can be bothered to go out later...
Sue C too nice one, I read of you sticking up for me recently so I thank you !I’m a believer in getting the legs used to MP in long runs. But the closer you get to the pointy end the harder MP is to maintain, you wont get the likes of marmite doing a 20 at MP in a build up but I like it. I guess that Ant isn’t really at his potential MP so isn’t frying himself, MP running is tough to maintain. Most folks on here will still have endurance as their key limiter because they are relatively new or run relatively low mileages, so the cake baking approach (with a bit of optional icing at the end) is still a decent option IMO. I don’t see that any too fancy helps on the big day if endurance is the limiter, 2:50+ marathon running isnt about leg speed.I have a new little term now and its “making your matches last”. After a few campaigns your body adapts quicker to marathon training and IMO if you bang out too many miles, too many fast miles, too many long runs and too much MP, then after a while you start digging yourself into a hole (or burning too many matches), which leaves you with an empty box of matches on race day. I started on the 20s immediately after Christmas this yr and cos I find them a chore and no longer fear them I was smacking them out with big chunks (eg 8M) at a pace that I could get no where near on race day. So I guess the choice is either slower runs if you want to do lots of long runs or less long runs if you want to smack them. I’m taking option 2 this time.Stimulate don’t annihilate !
I find this interesting.... let your effort in your training session dictate what is marathon pace and not a pace derived from potentially achieving a hypothetical time.
If plucking a pace out of the air this was a plausible way to identify what MP should be, shouldnt we all be declaring 4:40mm as MP?
How does running at MP help you as an 800m runner then? Would running at MP help those wishing to run faster at distances between 5k and HM for instance?
IMO MP running is great upper end aerobic development irrespective of final race distance. I think it should be a regular fixture in every runner's base period at the very least.
FINgers wrote (see)
Interestingly Jack Daniel advocates MP running in his Running Formula book when training for all distances - I forget his reasons precisly tho but the I recall it is something to do with comfortable hard training stimulus without being a tempo session.
Kittenkat/Barry/FINgers - that half to full distance conversion was my nemesis too. It still isn't great but is going in the right direction. For me increasing quality with MP/HMP incorporated in to medium and long runs has helped - as did a fair few hill sessions early in campaign - perhaps counter intuitively a reduction in overall training volume led to an improvement. Maybe that ties in with TR's "matches lasting" theory.
BandB - I just go to various municipal gyms in the city so no arsing about with inductions/fees blah blah blah....there aren't too many used condoms or needles in the changing rooms
Still insanely cold here. If I see another pile of snow I think my testicles might just explode
Race Jase wrote (see)
Ant van Oviedo wrote (see)Question is...what is MP going to be this time? Eh?
I said this in a wistful, before-marathon-training-really-starts-in-earnest sort of way, in reference to what may or may not be possible over the coming months.
I'm thick, but not stupid.
Interesting points being raised already. I am also of the believe that lack of endurance is the biggest problem at our level and hopefully the mid long and slow LSR (time on feet) will really help me push on.
8 miles today, av 8:12 pace, slightly fast, however I did manage to slow and av 8:19 for the last 4, which I consider ideal. Due to running on ice/snow, I was trying to focus on comfortable running, rather than looking down the entire time, like I did yesterday, this turned out at 8:06mm av. I lot more enjoyable run than yesterday.
Off to EuroDisney tomorrow, if CDG is not fogged bound, back on Sunday. Not sure about internet access. So good luck to all racers/LSR at the weekend.