Sub 3h15

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  • Ant, apologies if that came across in any negative way and it wasnt directed at you (or anyone). Dont get me wrong dreaming of a target time is encouraged. It's what can keep you motivated through the difficult winter months. My point is that I think sometimes people spend too much of their time chasing a target time and derive their training paces from that rather than from what they're actually capable of at that particular time in the training cycle. 

    The thing is though, I dont think one truly knows what MP is until after the race anyway by which time it's obviously too late to make any adjustments. It's interesting, and I've defo been guilty of this, that most people over estimate what MP is (evidenced by lots of huge positive splits). Why is that? And is this more or less common,in slower or faster runners? Does volume of training have any influence in how well someone can judge what their MP should be? Or are runners just by nature very bullish and over-confident?

  • You lost me with the match thingy TR but nice to exchange banter with you againimage Have you considered doing a run that alternates MP and HMP? That really changes your perception of the effort required for MP work. I agree entirely that, if given 6 miles at MP to do for example, that would feel like a reasonably substantial workout in itself. However, running MP/HMP miles  x 3 instead makes the MP work 'feel' easy.

    I have had a lot of benefit in a short period from extended 'upper aerobic' workouts at around MP (however you describe that!) 

    Shame my back is buggered at present to undo all that work!!!

  • No need to apologise at all, Jase. There's a fine line between taking full advantage of all the trainng done, and pushing too hard for something which was always unrealistic.

    TBH, I don't really think I'll be able to say, "Right, I'm going to go at such-and-such a pace" until mid-March. Hence all the dreaming of what could be....image

  • Welcome back to the returnees and welcome to the new threadsters.

    Moraghan wrote (see)

    IMO MP running is great upper end aerobic development irrespective of final race distance.  I think it should be a regular fixture in every runner's base period at the very least. 

    Moraghan - given MP is just a slow tempo pace and if we believe tempo runs provide the optimal training stimulus to improve your lactate threshold what, in your view, is the training benefit of MP runs?  I think there is often a danger that people get so obsessed with MP runs that they do them at the expense of tempo runs and receive a weaker lactate threshold training stimulus.

    11 miles for me today.  Should have been out in the lunchtime sunshine but went for the treadmill in the nice warm gym option.  Ran progressive with the last 5 miles at 7:14 m/m pace.  Bit boring so must get outside next weekimage

  • This bring us round to a topic from a couple of weeks ago RJ.

    Part of the problem for us runners who are somewhere between 3 and 3.30 is that the running calculators are not accurate predictors for us. Many people on the sub 3 thread found McMillian etc pretty accurate predictors based on their 10m and HM times, but often were over predicting their 10k times. Where as a poll of the sub 3.15 thread found that the predictors were pretty accutate through the distances, apart from being wildly optImistic regarding our Marathon times.

    The conclusion drawn, as TR states above, is that for the majority of us in this thread, running 30 - 60 miles per week, it is endurance which is our limiting factor which explains why so many of us have 'died' in the second half of the marathon.

    So I don't think that it is bullish or over-confidence, we are using the tools provided to us, its just that we are not up to the standard required to make these tools accurate.

  • The best 10k runners make the best marathon runners.

    I understand Moraghan's leg speed over shorter distances and then build endurance theory and think you are correct in planning to try it for 2012 RJ in order to avoid a platau. However IMO most of us here are not good enough / don't do enough miles for leg speed to be the main limiter. We need a bomb proof aerobic base and endurance most of all. When this is in place and we are close to 2.45, then I think we can safely say that we can cope with the distance and go back to developing speed.

  • Then again, as someone pointed out over the weekend on another thread to me, what do I know, I've only run 1 marathon. image
  • Sue C - if you burn all your matches too early then you dont have any left to light your candles on race day. Basically I mean that I dont want to be a spent force by race day. I  havnt tried any HMP/MP combo, I'm carp at all that and when I do progressive runs I just run harder, which ends up too hard at times. I guess wehn I next do MP I should try and run at exactly the right pace - not easy gadgetless ! Easy running on a bad back will keep your running at a higher level than you think.

    Keir - 1 is enough to have an informed opinion, that 1 is a lot better than some folks will ever achieve. I should have stopped after my first 1 (and I've only done 3) cos I may not better it. You sound like you know what you're talking about to me.

  • I have a confession to make…

    I'm on the shortlist for the Super Six imageimageimageimageimage

    Vote for knight rider

    Had to keep this one quiet but have been dying to talk about it too.
    Obviously very excited about getting a place and if I get picked will do my best to achieve my goal of a sub 3.15. Slight change to last years set up but the principal I guess is still the same.

    I know I have the speed on the shorter distances up to half marathon and my times reflect this, but I need the coaching/training to convert this to the full distance. Having a coach like Steve (in his 35th year of marathon training) or Bud (with a sucess for coaching endurance athletes) would be an immense opportunity for a “normal” Club athlete like myself. I know MM gained a hell of a lot of great advice / mentoring / support from his part of the SS earlier this year and I hope to soak it up too.

    I know B&B, Keir & Minni were also going for this and I was surprised not to see any of you at the Boot camp. Not sure how they do the selection process, but gutted none of you got through too.

    ** I can't believe I had the mother of all spots on my forehead on the day of the bootcamp**

  • Excited to 'spot' you on the list KR. Glad to you 'squeezed' in. Opened the link and 'zits' got my vote....

    ... anyone seen my coat?

  • Voted for you knight rider. So made up another person from this thread is on the shortlist and I hope we can all get behind you to get you voted in. Top tip; e mail all your mates, put the voting link on face book, tell everyone at your running club to vote for you and if you're on other forums get them to vote for you too. I did this last year to good effect!
    How was the bootcamp? Tell us about it as we didn't do this last year
  • Well done Knight Rider. Now you need to go touting for votes like all the others are!!!!!!!!!!! Good luck in any event.

    TR - I have tried the running easy approach whilst having physio. On Monday's session he really loosened off my back and it felt heaps better but it has tightened up again and I think (if I am being completely honest with myself) then that is because I am running on it too much in an effort to maintain fitness. I could be completely wrong though. As the next appointment is on Friday (luckily I can swap and there was a cancellation) then I am not losing anything by resting Thursday and finding out what I can actually do or not. I think I need to get fixed before making any further plans.

    Still, it's my first 'real' injury. I have had a few days off here and there for niggles and a touch of tendonitis by doing two marathons within 5 weeks of each other in 2009 but I have been lucky overall and I remain positiveimage

    There's always wine!!!

  • Sue C - sounds like you're pretty robust then, hopefully its a short term thing. I'm sure the booze will help relax it !

    Knight Rider - never heard of the others, I'll vote for you. Would absolutely hate to do it myself though.

  • Blimey, you lot can't half talk!

    Voted for Knight Rider image

    5.5 very slow, very icy miles tonight. I wanted 8 but no-one else was daft enough.
  • Cheers for the support guys image

    The spot has now calmed down a bit although it's bad when your 6 year old son takes the mick out of you.

    Just posted a thread to help my cause without any mention of smacking bottoms and being called Mildred!

    Will be back shortly with some details on the bootcamp and doing laps of a slushy running track.

  • Well done Knight Rider!  You just got my vote!
  • KR - just cast my vote. My choice of candidate shall of course remain strictly confidential but it might just rhyme with Bite Slider. Good luck !!

    Has everyone else voted in the other categories. Seems to be a vast gulf in current achievement between the sub 3 candidates whcih could either present RW with a relatively soft target or a very tough one

  • Seen Better Days wrote (see)
    Moraghan - given MP is just a slow tempo pace and if we believe tempo runs provide the optimal training stimulus to improve your lactate threshold what, in your view, is the training benefit of MP runs?  I think there is often a danger that people get so obsessed with MP runs that they do them at the expense of tempo runs and receive a weaker lactate threshold training stimulus.

    How did the faster tempo runs (1 hour race pace so we are clear) become so popular?  I think (happy to be corrected though) that most of the original research on running to improve LT involved a control group and another group doing 20 minute tempo runs.  So, the fair conclusion was that tempo running was a good stimulus to improve LT.  But they never did compare the effectiveness of the 20 minute tempo run with the MP (for example) as stimulus so I would never, ever agree that the tempo was optimal.

    Obviously there is a trade off between intensity and duration.  I just believe that you'll get a much better training effect from a 8 mile MP run than a 4 mile tempo run.  I believe for most runners the two are approx equivalent in overall effort but with the former you spend twice as long addressing your LT. 

    I can't help thinking that these famous 10 mile club burn ups in the old days are what made distance running so strong - and more than likely these were principally at MP as were Lydiard's base runs.

    I think it's a major mistake to ignore any pace around the LT zone but that you have to cover all your bases between easy paces through to 10k (quicker for some).  Put another way in the example of paces for a 3:15 marathoner:

    Easy Pace:  8:15 

    Steady State: 7:45

    MP:  7:27

    Tempo:  6:55

    10k:  6:40

    Too many people ignore the SS / MP zones and alternate from easy pace to tempo.  This only makes sense to the brain in terms of slotting into certain paces, not to the body.  The result being that there is a gaping hole in aerobic background.  Tempo runs have their place but in the past this has been overemphasised at the expense of other paces.

    Truth is I don't much like tempo pace.  I think it's the one pace in the typical range that can be missed out.  I still use it but it would be more of a late season LT maintenance or even peaking workout or some "close to race pace" practice for a 10 miler.  In a generic marathon schedule I'd do the bulk of the early work at MP and 10k pace (this helps the LT but also with a vo2 max component) and then finish off with some tempo work to tie together the more fundamental paces.

  • Damn - I'll try and be more concise in future.
  • Thanks for your FIRST comments, Barry B.

    Well done, KR, and good luck with it all (though I don't envy you).

  • Moraghan wrote (see)
    Put another way in the example of paces for a 3:15 marathoner:

    Easy Pace:  8:15 

    Steady State: 7:45MP:  7:27Tempo:  6:5510k:  6:40Too many people ignore the SS / MP zones and alternate from easy pace to tempo.  This only makes sense to the brain in terms of slotting into certain paces, not to the body.  The result being that there is a gaping hole in aerobic background.  Tempo runs have their place but in the past this has been overemphasised at the expense of other paces.
    Interesting to see this rang of paces. How often would these paces be done in a 2 week period? I know MM worships the over 8.00 mm for most of the runs he does and under 7.00 for the speed, but nothing in between. OPens up a can of worms I think?
  • Typically all but 4 runs would be done at easy paces - perhaps with a couple of others crossing over to SS when feeling good / mileage goal reached and recovering well.  The volume of each would vary if building mileage / long run duration (i.e. perhaps a 'half' session of 10k pace work).

    Of those four it would depend where you were in the schedule and what preceeded  / followed. Sorry if that's sitting on the fence!

    If forced I'd say 2 * MP based (not necessarily all at MP, could be progressive of MP based alternating), 1 * 10k and another non-pace specific such as fartlek / hills.  

    Cans of worms are good!  

    (paces mentioned above are off the cuff examples within a wider range)

  • 3:15 may be too ambitious given my tendency to enjoy distance over quality. Last week saw 72 miles in the snow / ice, mostly a few 11.6m doubles to get to work.

    All the quality speed work i did in summer has been dropped. I just enjoy steady running too much. Loving the hills right now.

    The downside, is that my feet went numb for 4 days. I've probably run over a 1000 miles on my shoes. So won't be running again until my new shoes turn up image

    Best of luck to all of you.
  • As I'm flicking through a typical P&D schedule, and having previously taken a "lace up the daps and run" approach to training,  why don't they write training programmes in the same language, so I'm assuming in P&D terms  "general aerobic" is equivalent of "steady state" as referred to by Moraghan. 

    But there seems to be a lack of MP mentioned in P&D, in the 55-70 (18wk) schedule MP is only practised in week 9 and week 13 in a LSR, then a 2m dress rehearsal during the final taper week.   (SBD as resident P&D guru help me out here).   Is P&D light on this?  Would you advocate ramping up MP practise for the LSRs??

    BTW, Was it me or did it seem when reading the through Supersix candidates that there are more than usual who have never run a marathon?  Surely with the specialist advice on offer they should have at least attempted one previously???

    I may have cast a vote in Sub3:15 for a Hoff lover, but haven't in any other category so far...... 

  • Moraghan wrote (see)
    Damn - I'll try and be more concise in future.
    Please don't. We're a fairly intelligent bunch on here and I'm very grateful for your input on here. Your posts are v informative so don't change your style.
    Your thoughts on using MP as a workout during the base period of training has struck a chord with me as I'm in week 1 of a 10 week build-up to a HM and may well use tomorrow morning's run to put in some MP work instead if just using it to plod about. Food for thought......
  • Just want to chip in on the MP debate. P&D indeed only have a small amount of MP running in their plans but I think that is, in part, made up for by the fact that 1, they prescribe a fair amount of what they call General Aerobic running, which I loosly translate to SS running. And 2, they don't advovate running long runs as LSR but at a pace that is harder than that - quoting directly from the web article as I don't have my book here:

    The most beneficial intensity range for long runs is to gradually increase from a slow early pace as you warm up, reaching 20% slower than your goal marathon race pace at five miles and accelerating to 10% below marathon pace during the last five miles of the run. At this intensity range, a 22-mile long run will take approximately the same amount of time as your marathon.

    I think that this helps to prepare you for MP pace to a certain extent and I suppose is a progression on the mid-week progressive runs that a lot of us do.

    I was worried before VLM this year that I hadn't done enough MP running by following P&D and also following Liz's advice to MM on the ssx thread. My worries were primarily that I would be able to recognise the correct pace and have to concentrate too hard on making sure I maintained it correctly - in the end that wasn't the case at all and MP came quite comfortably to me. However, towards the end endurance failed me and my pace did drop quite a lot but I think I can put some of that at least down to glycogen reserves...

  • Windy wrote (see)

    As I'm flicking through a typical P&D schedule, and having previously taken a "lace up the daps and run" approach to training,  why don't they write training programmes in the same language, so I'm assuming in P&D terms  "general aerobic" is equivalent of "steady state" as referred to by Moraghan. 

    I think the P&D Aerobic Runs would be somewhere between Easy and Steady State, as described by Moraghan. I would make the choice on the pace depending purely on how it felt when I started running that session. I think Steady State should still feel easy and on most days it would. But then, as Keir says, I've only run 1 marathon too so what do I know!

    WELL DONE KR!!! I'd be lying if I said I wasn't jealous. I'll be voting for you mister.

    No running for me. Sick as a dog and have woken up in a sea of sweat this morning. Because I've bugger all else to do I checked my HR just now and managed to relax it down to 50. Shouldn't it be much higher than that if I'm feverish?!

  • Can someone turn up the central heating in this new house - it feels very cold at the moment!

    10 relaxed miles this morning (5.15 start) but it took about 15 minutes for my hands to warm back up again - next time it's I'm going back to 2 pairs of gloves. Lovely clear sky so plenty of time for me to do a bit of constellation spotting (although I can really only identify about 4 or 5!)

    KR - congrats on getting on the short list. My vote's in.

    Got a book on sports nutrition for my birthday - haven't started reading it yet, so felt it was still OK to have a bowl of Coco Pops before going to bed last night! Suspect I'll have to have a few healthy food related New Year's resolutions.

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