Sub 3h15

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  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭

    I would like to say a big thanks to all those on this thread who have helped my massively with the understanding of paced sessions, HR (not that I've mastered that yet!) and marathon running in general. 

    Rase Jame / AoE-   Brass Monkey entry -  I have a member from my club who missed the online entry (she's vet and was out in a field!) and she will take the entry if you decide not to do it.  Send me a message and we'll arrange payment etc.

    Good luck with your training guys and girls and a special good luck to Knight Rider! 

     Oh and for those who are interested, Captain Haddock, hasn't got a place in London but he's training for Lochness in the Autumn.

  • Hi to the other Mr Hodge! image Good to hear you're still clocking up the miles in Germany and are targeting another spring marathon. Do keep us up to date with how you're getting on.

    This morning I got up early (rarity) and did:
    3.14 miles w/up at 8m11s pace (25m40s)
    3.16 miles at 7m17s pace (MP effort) (23m01s)
    1.34 miles w/down at 7m45s pace (10m25s))

    so 7.64 miles in 59m06s and that now brings up 44.67 miles so far this week with tonight's run home to come. Blimey, if I do 5.33 miles on the way home I'll have done 50 miles in 5 days image with Sunday's long run still to come..... During the spring, my biggest week was 62 miles and I may exceed that this week image
    Which brings me on to a question I wanted to pose to Moraghan : what percentage of weekly mileage should the long run be? If I do 13 miles this Sunday that will be just under 25%. Am I right in thinking that's about right?

  • Barry - I can't find your post about a long run, but judging from everyone else's comments it was obviously a good one!

    A.C. - what are your running plans for next year then?

    Tony - nice to hear from you again. Sounds like you're set up nicely for the beginning of your Brighton campaign and ready to celebrate your milestone year.

    7.5M general aerobic run for me this morning image Aimed for MP+20% and ended up just a fraction quicker.

  • Minni wrote (see)

     Oh and for those who are interested, Captain Haddock, hasn't got a place in London but he's training for Lochness in the Autumn.

    With or without a ostrich costume? image
  • TRTR ✭✭✭

    Good work MM – I used to see you posting 2M runs to work and wonder “WTFP of that, why doesn’t he make em 6M each way (seeing as he's made the effort to don the pumps)” – lol. Now you are getting into it ! You could run a good marathon in April off the foundations you are laying now. Having said that I only ran 4M today , but I backed it up with a 45min turbo and I’m trying not to empty the matchbox the wrong side of Christmas (and I swim at lunch). I’m enjoying the novelty of only doing regular short runs (6M ish usually).

    I’ve had plenty of weeks in the last 2 campaigns when the LSR was over or around 50% of the weak(ly) total. No wonder I've struggled.

  • Nice MP run MM. And that's some quite impressive mileage you're clocking up already.
  • Matchstick Man wrote (see)

    Which brings me on to a question I wanted to pose to Moraghan : what percentage of weekly mileage should the long run be? If I do 13 miles this Sunday that will be just under 25%. Am I right in thinking that's about right?

    I would say 25 - 40% when in marathon training (40% for the extra long runs).  The thing is for a runner who is committed and consistent like yourself that's only really important at the outset when putting together the structure.  If you do that more weeks than most you can afford the odd week where it's 50% if too much life gets in the way of the other runs and your priority is another 20+.

    It's only time to worry if someone is trying to run a marathon on 40m a week and also trying to get in the requisite number of 20+ milers.  Having the long run at 50% or more regularly just goes to show the mileage is insufficient to really be doing a marathon.

    The longer you've been running and the more focused / diligent you are the less you have to worry about the crude 'rules'.

  • Gul Darr wrote (see)
    A.C. - what are your running plans for next year then?

    err - I ashamed to say none at present in terms of racesimage but I feel I need a bit of breathing space from rigid training programmes.

    I think I underestimated just how demanding it has been to get from 3.43 to sub 3.15 for the marathon in 12 months and it is time to regroup and chill a bit. No matches left in the matchbox as it were (thanks for that TR).

    So that means in training I am focussing on slower trail running mixed with faster interval training and planning to concentrate on 10k-10m distance. I will probably target some races for March and April and try to push my time down there. I will possibly get back to half marathons in the summer.

    My next big declared goal is sub 3.00 originally for Boston 2012 but possibly Berlin in the same year (I have a feeling I may run both, Boston a trial run for Berlin, that worked last year with New York providing the foundation for London).

    One of my big picture running goals is to run all the marathon majors with a pb in each one (which I have done so far - but that is only two).

    Lastly, next year is about supporting the OH who is starting a new career and the kids in the things they want to do, so I am more than happy to focus on family and others, taking a bit of a marathon time out. As we all know, running can be a selfish sport and marathon running in particular.

     xpost MM - I agree with the post above. I am still banging out 12-15 milers on a very low base at the moment and sometimes they are the bulk of my running in a given week. Because my body is used to running long (and has been for a while) I am not that bothered about what Moraghan calls the crude rules.

  • TR wrote (see)

    Good work MM – I used to see you posting 2M runs to work and wonder “WTFP of that, why doesn’t he make em 6M each way (seeing as he's made the effort to don the pumps)” – lol.


    Because I was strictly adhering to the mileage / sessions of the RW sub 3h15 plan. Tbh, back then my wife was on maternity leave and it wouldn't have been a hassle to make every morning a 6 miler and then a session on the way home but that wouldn't have been fair on the other people who didn't have the time available to me who were also following the RW plan. I think Hilly said similar at the time - "why not get up earlier and bag some extra?" and even Race Jase has said he questioned the effectiveness of such short runs. However. Liz and I were constrained by the schedule so the 12 mile mid-week runs became 9 into work and 3 home - definitely a compromise.
    That's the deal though - I was signed up to follow the RW sub 3h15 programme to the letter to prove it works. Everyone's life is different but the idea was to host a thread that allowed others to join in and compare sessions on the same day

  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭
    Moraghan wrote (see)

    It's only time to worry if someone is trying to run a marathon on 40m a week and also trying to get in the requisite number of 20+ milers.  Having the long run at 50% or more regularly just goes to show the mileage is insufficient to really be doing a marathon.

    Moraghan - Tempted to say that it didn't do me any harm (38 mpw ave, 99m = 5 longest runs, 3.09 at Abingdon), or did I just get lucky? Is the 50% rule due to injury prevention?

    Nice running there MM. With that sort of weekly mileage and Marathon pace runs, have you considered the possibility of running a spring marathon? imageimage

    Welcome back TH6!

    5m recovery @ 8.52 pace for me this morning having realised that the 9 miles with the club yesterday averaged M Pace. After the past few weeks it felt positively warm out there this morning so didn't bother with hat and gloves. Was then surprised by the amount of ice of the roads. image

  • Keir wrote (see)

    Nice running there MM. With that sort of weekly mileage and Marathon pace runs, have you considered the possibility of running a spring marathon? imageimage

    Do you know what? I didn't. How surprising is that? I kind of expected a quicker pace than that if I'm honest but having banked 37 miles over the previous 4 days I am feeling v tired so not that bothered. I know that by next week I'll have adjusted to the training and by the week after I'll be handling the training load better. Also the canal path was covered with sheet ice in a lot of places so it wasn't conducive to fast running.
    I ran strong on the hills on Weds night with the club so the next marker is Parkrun a week tomorrow. Just got to be patient about building up the miles and remember my main aim is on Feb 13th, not Dec 10th
  • Keir wrote (see)

    5m recovery @ 8.52 pace for me this morning having realised that the 9 miles with the club yesterday averaged M Pace. After the past few weeks it felt positively warm out there this morning so didn't bother with hat and gloves. Was then surprised by the amount of ice of the roads. image


    Same for me - I felt hot for all of my run this morning (6 miles in about 45 minutes) but the ice on the fields and tracks was deadly slippery stuff, with a melted sheen of water.

    Was thinking about the doubles you are running at the moment Keir - how are they going? what kind of benefits are you expecting? and what is the motivation for running them? From memory P+D (may their names be praised) say at our level we shouldn't really be doing them at all..

  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭
    A.C wrote (see)
    Was thinking about the doubles you are running at the moment Keir - how are they going? what kind of benefits are you expecting? and what is the motivation for running them? From memory P+D (may their names be praised) say at our level we shouldn't really be doing them at all..

    I know we shouldn't be doing them. But my understanding is that 1 x 10m is better than 2 x 5m. However 10 milers every day are not going to happen for me (I am not setting my alarm to Lorenzo 0'clock) So my view is 2 x 5m is better than 1 x 5m.

    Basically I am trying to keep the routine of 5 - 6 days per wk running. 4 x week day mornings I get up early and run 5 miles. Basic miles (either recovery or Steady pace run) done for the day. Then any extra - (Core session, club run, recovery run with slower teachers from school, evening run) is basically extra stuff. That way if the worst comes to the worst and weather is terrible or work load is high that day, I can at least think that I have got some exercise in.

    I think I have noticed benefits from extra weekly mileage (ave 40 - 50 per wk as opposed to 25 - 30 this time last yr) and fewer days with no running. I haven't raced for a while, but the fact that I went out with the 6 fast boys in the club last night and only 3 of us were together at the end has filled me with confidence that I am going well.

  • Keir wrote (see)
    Moraghan - Tempted to say that it didn't do me any harm (38 mpw ave, 99m = 5 longest runs, 3.09 at Abingdon), or did I just get lucky? Is the 50% rule due to injury prevention?

    It's mainly in the interests of proportion.  If you don't have an extensive background a long run of 50% of weekly mileage is likely to be so stressful that it will limit your midweek running and take you too long to recover.  If you can easily handle it as 50% then the answer is simple - you should be doing more in the week. 

    I'd look at your result in a different way and say imagine what you'd have got averaging 50+m. It's also possible that your cycling background enabled success of that sort of schedule or perhaps you were also doing extensive additional aerobic work.

    A.C wrote (see)

    Was thinking about the doubles you are running at the moment Keir - how are they going? what kind of benefits are you expecting? and what is the motivation for running them? From memory P+D (may their names be praised) say at our level we shouldn't really be doing them at all..

    Must admit I think this talk of limiting the introduction of doubles until you reach a certain mileage is just a logistical convenience - it certainly makes no sense from a general training point of view.
  • Looking back at my spring mileage, my long runs were done at a percentage of 24-41% with only 1 week at 52% and that was a 15 miler. My longest runs (18/20/20/20/22) were done at 32-41% with my longest run 22.01 miles done at 35% of that weeks mileage (62miles)
  • TRTR ✭✭✭

    MM – fair do’s, I understand. Your commitment to the whole process was good. Its just a shame that the 2.5M each ways were in there cos they probably helped very little.

    Re the doubles, for VLM 2009 I simply ran to work and back twice a week (for an 8 week period) and did an LSR on the weekend. I was getting pretty fit on this regime and was only scuppered by a calf strain about 4 weeks out. So even though most schedules propose running 6 days/week before you incorporate doubles, I think you can get some very good gains by doing them even if you don’t run every day. I typically ran 8M in the morning and 6 on the way home. I reckoned I was in sub 2:50 shape too until I hurt my calf. Lots of IM triathletes are starting to do double run days or double bike days rather than a run and a bike some days. I’ll probably do this again after Christmas.

  • I have often thought that this whole business of doubles is a lot of fuss about nothing.

    After all, when is a double not a double? If you run late in the evening and then do a morning run (which I frequently do), this is effectively a double ie two runs within twelve hours.

    I think the major point is the one that Jezza used to make and TR made earlier, if you have the time and you are going to lace up those trainers, make each session really count. And of course, if you are trying to focus on quality, 10m in one go has got to be more meaningful than 2x5m.

    When I first got into running I used to do a different type of double: 3-4 mile run first thing and then 2 hours gym work later in the day (weights, rowing x-trainer, treadmill, swim). The weight fell away (and there was a lot to lose back then!).

  • A.C wrote (see)
    And of course, if you are trying to focus on quality, 10m in one go has got to be more meaningful than 2x5m.

    When I first got into running I used to do a different type of double: 3-4 mile run first thing and then 2 hours gym work later in the day (weights, rowing x-trainer, treadmill, swim). The weight fell away (and there was a lot to lose back then!).

    Surely, it's a time on feet/endurance senario? If you were splitting the 10 miles into 2 x 5 mile chunks, would you run these quicker than you would the full 10 miler?

    Tony Hodge 5 - Hi Tony, I remember your posts from MM's thread earlier this year and all the bad snow you had out in Germany. If Ii don't get into the Super Six, I'm down to run Brighton as well.
    So far there is You, FINgers and possibly me - Brighton train a cometh

  • Keir/KR -  Target is still sub 3:15 at Gloucester in Jan.  I just ate normally but made sure I had plenty of water during the day as I don't carry any with me. I found out about the unfuelled runs after reading RJ's training info for abo and got more info about the two types of long runs from the McMillan website after a link was posted on the forum.

  • I've just been out for a walk and the ice has all but gone - hurray!!! Hopefully this means I can abandon the field and hit the road tomorrow for what should qualify as the first MLR of my recovery. Reading back, I think I might need to hold off increasing my MLR distance for a few weeks as it's almost up to 40% of my total mileage this week image 
  • I dunno KR - I guess for me it comes down to the fact that if I had the choice I would always run a block of 10m rather than 2x5m.

    I wouldn't choose/want to run 2x5m quicker but I may end up doing so in order to finish more quickly! 

    I don't understand the science etc but 10m in one go has to be more substantial as a training stimulus (blood to muscles, fat burning etc) than 2x5m.

    By quality, I don't mean the speed or pace of the session, I mean it being more like having one square meal rather than two snacks ie more substantial.

    I also clearly accept that, like Keir, sometimes doubles are the only way to get the trianing in

  • A.C wrote (see)

    I also clearly accept that, like Keir, sometimes doubles are the only way to get the training in

    and me as it's the only way for me to get to work and back. I really admire people like Knight Rider who go out once the children have gone to bed. For me, running as commuting means than when I get back at 6, I've done my training for the day. The only exception for me is Weds nights with the club.
  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭

    1 night away from the bathtime routine is my weekly allowance as well. Kids tucked up by 8pm, so I sometimes go out then, but prefer early mornings to late nights.

    I'm not on a Marathon programme yet, but my base building weeks so far on average look something like this:

    Mon: Rest

    Tue: 5m am easy, 5m pm easy

    Wed: 5m am steady, Core session and 5m pm OR club session 9m

    Thur: 5m am recovery, 5m pm steady

    Fri: 5m am easy

    Sat 5m easy or rest

    Sun 16 - 18m LSR.

    Not too focused on pace at the moment. Generally running without Garmin and just focusing on mile building. However realising I can consistently do this sort of weekly mileage is making me think whether I should reconsider the 'up to 55m' plan I had cobbled together for my A target HM (and carry over to B target Marathon 6 wks later) and give a up to 70 plan a go. But that is a lot of running image

  • well an extra mile on all the sessions above takes you from 56 / 62 up to 65 / 71 miles......
    Personally I'd push the volume up on the club session to 11-13 miles and make the most of the time you've been alloted for that evening and make sure the Sunday long run is 18-20 miles keeping the rest of the sessions the same. Instead of doing 5 and 5, why not 6 and 4? What about making the Saturday run 30mins max - why does it have to be 5 miles?
  • Keir my biggest regret for London this year is that having been in good enough shape to cope with the up to 70 schedule I didn't push it and therefore didn't cash in on the base fitness I had built in 2009. So I would say go for it and bulk up the miles but make them really count.

    Good point MM 6 and 4 or even 7 and 3 might be a better balance, if you can manage it (particularly if you throw in some strides to spritz up the longer sessions).

    I'm another post kids bedtime runner - much prefer that to the mornings - I do have a running watershed of 9.30 after which I think I should be going to bed rather than heading out the door.

    edit - typo

  • Keir your base is looking solid as a rock Sir. Put it this way - going from 55 to 70 is an extra 2 miles on every run (unless you're doing your doubles thing) which doesn't make it sound so bad. However I found going up to 70 caused some niggles and injuries. Quite tough to sustain 70mile weeks for 22 weeks though ! As you can see I'm not offering anything as useful as an opinion !!

    The big thaw's on up here.Going to venture outside for the first outdoor run in nearly 2 weeks !

    Taper time soon Barry ?? Perfect timing for the Xmas carb fest

  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭

    Cheers MM, AC, FW

    Reason for the magic 5 number is that my usual (non main road) run is 1 mile out / 3 mile circuit / 1 mile back. I can double back and not complete the loop (this morning I was only planning on doing 3) but when get out there I prefer to keep going. This is the only traffic free road at 6am which I feel safe on. Other roads can be used but are a bit too busy to feel totally safe.

    However certainly 5m am / 7m pm is just as achievable as 3m am and 7m pm. Will build the habit during those long, beautiful Xmas hols. image

    30 mins on Sat is also achievable.

    I am slowly increasing LSRs so can be hitting 20m mid Jan.

    Fraser - Glad the ice queen is being banished. Whats the latest forecast for next wk? Have you got your HM plan yet?

  • Hmm.  I'm not sure I'm a morning person or an evening person!  I can manage getting up at 6am, 5.30 at a push, but not earlier.  And I have to be in bed by 10pm; 11pm at the latest.  I don't like training to finish after 9pm as I like at least an hour to relax before bed. 

    Rock 'n' roll weekend planned: work training course tomorrow (the end of the CPD year - 31.12.10 - waits for no woman...) and then marshalling for tri-counties XC on Sunday.  I'll probably try and do my LSR after the course tomorrow so that I can jog to and from the XC.  That's what I call a rock and roll lifestyle.

  • Jools, just a gentle reminder if you haven't already. SEND YOUR CHAMPIONSHIP ENTRY TODAY!
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