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ASICS Super Six: Peter (Sub-3:00)
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That easy pace looks fine to me, perhaps a little conservative given he ran 36:33 for 10k recently. If he can't run easy at that pace there's something wrong with the overall workload (which is a different discussion!).
So are these schedules saying that Wk1 of a sub3 plan for Paris needs to include MP and 10K pace running but Wk1 of a sub3 plan for VLM doesnt?
The mind boggles.......
Bit concerned that neither Bud nor Steve have been on the threads yet when we're on day 2 already ......
For those of use who do MP + 25% - 8 minute miling is 30ish seconds a mile too fast...PRF runs at 8:30 miling for easy and he's in sub 3 shape (in theory although he cant convert but thats a different matter), and his 10k was 37:30 in February, so should be around 36:30-37 mins now...
I would say if you are going to prioritise the MP work then you shouldnt need to worry about the pace of easy runs - there is no need to specify them in the schedule imo.
OK, they try & avoid obvious errors. I can't claim to have seen them all, but the ones I have all seem to have the harder midweek sessions on tuesdays & thursdays, rest day on fridays, long run at the weekend. That seems a reasonable basis to me, although I'm sure there are other errors I'm not aware of that are obvious to others.
What constitutes 'easy' pace is always subjective, but if he's aiming for sub-3, 8 min mile pace for 5 miles should feel easy, unless he's ploughing through snow or up hills. He ran 2 min/mile quicker than that for 10k, after all.
This week's schedule has been confirmed:
M: Recover from hangover.
T: Log on to RW to see what's going on.
W: Email RW to find out which schedule you're supposed to be using.
T: Send out Huskies to look for mentor.
F: Apply warm towels to mentor in attempt to defrost and restore to operating temperature.
S: Day off for Christmas
S: Prepare for start of marathon training, 12 weeks left until taper.
Yes, but thisbases easy run paces on aspirational 3:00 marathon pace when Peter is a much better athlete than that and also assumes that ASPIRATIONAL MP+25% is the way to derive easy paces. I think you're far better using a recent race result to derive an easy pace range.
Agree we shouldn't get hung up on easy paces, but to say 8:00 is too fast for someone who just ran that for 10k seems completely wrong. It's useful to have a maximum easy pace in the schedule for obvious reasons but 8:00 p / mile ain't it IMO.
what have you been doing running wise the past couple of weeks? A bit of background info on you, your running history, your PB's etc would be great to "flesh out" your thread a bit.
Welcome PT - look forward to you filling in us in on your running background, recent training etc...
LOL Moraghan
A different matter, or are they connected? His long runs might be a little too easy to give him the endurance to convert properly.
Well yes. Unless I have a specific target in mind I tend to leave my Garmin at home and run at a pace that feels OK. Not very scientific, I know. Focussing on MP is so demoralising - running at MP over any distance outside of a race feels like really hard work.
3:04 so sub 3 is aspirational??
Can we have this debate on Middle Ground Moraghan and others...I feel now Peter has turned up we are hijacking?
We done some lovely crowd warming in the meantime though
Welcome to your thread PT!
Excuse the banter we have been having whilst waiting for you to arrive. As KR says, we are (mostly) a friendly bunch who are interested in what you are doing and how you are getting on.
The point is you can work out your paces based on something like vo2 max pace or short race times. Or you can work it out on something like a target marathon pace. However, Peter's 10k time is a much better time than a 3 hr for the marathon in terms of ability. So, by working out training paces based on marathon goal time he's shortchanging himself in the training leading up to it, as it is for most people due to the unique factors in play at the marathon distance.
The ability, or lack of it, to convert on the day from short distance to marathon has little to do with the paces of his easy runs throughout the program whereas you seem to feel it's inherent in deciding upon pace.
This is very true. Most of us on here genuinely want to learn and improve. Although we all have our own training plans for the spring marathons, sharing the knowledge you will build up being coached by Bud will be hugely appreciated by us, even if we don't all follow it!!!!
As MM said, please can you tell us your running history and other PB's, etc.
Good luck
Welcome to your new home PT. We're all chomping at the bit to hear more about your running history and to see how you get on.
With regard to the 'Easy' pace discussed above. IMO that's exactly what it should be and not necessarily based on a particular pace. I'm a sub 3:10 aspirant and sometimes Easy on my long runs turns out to be 7:50mm and sometimes 8:30mm and I tend not to misjudge the pace at which I can finish the run. As long as it feels easy I don't care what pace it is. It's about time on feet and fat burning for those stretches, to save yourself for the harder workouts or the MP tagged on the end. Again IMO.
Which leads me to ask PT: will you be training to pace or heart rate or haven't you decided/been told yet?
No not at all...I was badly wording trying to say that the effort in training should be in the sessions, so there is little point trying to hit a target 'easy' pace...my beef is with putting target paces on easy runs on training plans because they often become a pace to hit (or even to go under) rather than an output.
I didnt explain it well and exagerated for effect I agree, but I feel the point is one worth making (I may have ruined my own point by distracting you with rubbish logic however!)
Good to see you're alive and kicking Pete and no doubt itching to get going - bad timing with weather and Christmas messing things up a tad eh.
Re - easy pace - does it really matter what it is ?? Surely it's perceived and should just be whatever feels easy on that day - so some days it'll be quicker than others. Obsessing on it misses the point. The key paces are on the hard/long days IMHO
I agree about the easy pace runs. I'm aiming for sub-3 after doing a 3:04 at VLM this year. I was trying to do my easy runs at around 8:00 m/m but just can't do it. I feel I lose all form when running at this pace. My easy pace runs are at the very slowest around 7:20 pace but this feels easy. Surely everyone has their own take on easy and we shouldn't focus on pace for these runs, just do them by feel.
PT - I'd be interested to see if you have been set a specific pace for your slower runs.
I agree with the above Fraser / Martin although I would say, if your easy is 7:20, Martin, I reckon you should be running nearer 2:45 - 2:50 marathons. Either that or you may benefit from practicing your form and higher cadence. Do you have an enormous stride by any chance?
Fraser - Your easy's about 7:40 as a sub 3 marathoner, no?
Hi Pete - you're alive and kicking.
Shouldn't an easy pace feel like you are holding back, when you could be going faster?
B&B - I don't have an enormous stride, in fact I actually have quite short legs for my height. My legs do move quite quickly sometimes!!! Although I am aiming for sub-3 (worst case), I am hoping that I am capable of doing much quicker. I'm just not putting a specific time down until I get to March time and I have a few 20 milers under the belt. My 3:04 last year was off a maximum of 39 miles per week and an average of about 32 miles. I was aiming for 3:10 so was happy with that.
People do tell me that my slow runs are not that slow. We will see what happens next April!!!!
What pace do most 3:00 marathoners run their easy pace at?
3:04 off a 3:10 target's very nice Martin. Good stuff. Different people follow different training schedules so people's easy pace will differ depending on what they think they should be aiming at, be it effort or pace or what their schedule prescribes. On the sub3:15 thread, the general thinking is that Easy is around 8:00 to 8:40 for that target, which would make Easy somewhere around 7:40 to 8:20mm average for sub 3. Most follow P&D or variations of the RW schedules on the sub3:15 thread.
Do you train to heart rate? If so, what sort of % does running at 7:20mm give you?
Hi Peter - will be following this thread with interest. As mentioned, Bournemouth AC in your area have an excellent group of training partners and thoroughly decent and inspirational individuals from a variety of running backgrounds. From reading last year's threads, the training plans can be tweaked to fit in with club sessions (which largely seem to consist of running fast efforts up and down the seafront).
As to easy pace, when left to my own devices and feeling quite fresh, it can be as fast as 7m/m pace. On other days, particularly when training with other people it can be as slow as 8:30 pace. As long as it does not compromise the next focussed session it's fine. Too much is made IMHO of how fast to run them. It's not a case of how fast to try to run them, but running to the right pace / intensity and erring on the side of caution throughout.
B&B - I've never trained to heart rate. I prefer to run "to feel". I am following the 55-70 mpw P&D schedule with a few tweaks. For VLM 2010 I followed my own cobbled together schedule.
I lurked on Matchstick Man's 3:15 thread before VLM and I think that some people using heart rate as a guide spooked themselves whenever they got an "abnormal" reading. I know that it was probably "abnormal" for a reason, but I think that I would read too much into it. I accept that we all have bad days when running seems so much more laboured than usual.
Lurking on the Sub-3 & sub-3:15 threads has been an inspiration to me and has shown me that to achieve sub-3 I need to run more miles and increase my midweek runs (already up to 13 miles on Tuesdays) and do more 20+ milers. Last year I only did 3 and have at least 7 planned for this effort (currently running 16 each weekend).
X-post with the two above