ASICS Super Six: Peter (Sub-3:00)

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  • Think i will go for watford RSalter cheers for the heads up on the course. I will prob follow your advice steve on using it more as a training run than in search of a pb. Was concerned it would take alot out of me and obviously paris is the focus.

     Really good session today image! Despite fears i would need to slow down the pace a bit i manged to complete the 7 miles in 44:45. Went through the first in 23 and did my usual faster 2nd half coming in just under the target time of 45. Yesterdays session went well aswell coming in at 59 mins for my 8 although i still wouldnt say 7:30 feels slow. Am finding that the focused times that i lacked previously are starting to make the most of my time on the road and ensureing i dont lose focus.

    Hopefully the rain will stop soon to please!

  • Two excellent sessions Peter - way better than mine -  it is good that you are hitting the target times without feeling too much strain.
  • Steve Marathon Coach wrote (see)
    Two excellent sessions Peter - way better than mine -

    Sounds like you need a mentor, Steve image Come on, chin up!

    You're putting in some good sessions there PT, good work. I wouldn't worry about hitting the prescribed targets of the Wednesday runs especially if it didn't feel slow, as you mentioned. It's a general aerobic run and should feel easy. Don't be worried about running these at nearer 8mm. If you're putting any effort in it's not doing what it's meant to. The harder, faster sessions are on the Tuesday and Thursday so you need to make sure you're recovered from Tuesday ready to hit Thursday full of beans. Your mileage will be creeping up and the further into the schedule you go the more important it will be that you take the opportunities to run slow, stay fresh and avoid injury.

  • Peter  - to save me from lazily not reading back (!) - what was the 7 miles in 44.45 ascribed as ? Tempo or HMP pace or MP ?? Did it have a few warm up miles beforehand ? Looks like you're simmering nicely
  • Fraser - Are you really too lazy to scroll up the page? image 7miles (45 mins) steady. Just in case PT's feeling lazy too!

    Edit: RW has 'Steady' as roughly MP on its schedules.

  • Thanks Band B - that scrolling can be a tiring business. I suppose you students have got time on your hands to do these things
  • Thanks Band B - that scrolling can be a tiring business. I suppose you students have got time on your hands to do these things

    Edit - seems quick for "steady" eh. Have I done my sums wrong or is that well under MP ie about 6.20 something

  • Yes Peter is going so well that he is now going to mentor me.

    I also need someone to givve me edited highlights every few posts so I don't have to scroll up and down the page.

    A reminder a lot of the times on schedules are approx so it would say 45 mins approx rather than 47 mins which may be the pace required for .a ub-3 marathon. It's the feel of the session that is important ie approx at a pace that I feel I could keep up for a marathon rather than run it say in 6:42s because that's what it works out.

  • Mmm... I think you've spotted an error there, Fraser. 45 mins works out at, as you say, 6:26 per mile, which is way too fast for a supposed MP or steady run for a 3 hour aspirant. If in doubt PT, it might be worth having a look at the VLM schedules, which give you a better idea of paces, once you have entered your goal marathon target. I'm not saying follow these instead but just take the pacing structure from them. You'll find it down the right hand side of the page.

    VLM schedule with paces

    Much more sensible, giving 6:52mm as 'Steady'. Which leads me to say...bloody hell, that was some session you managed yesterday! No wonder you were a bit concerned beforehand!

  • Nice workout Peter.  It's closer to your correct MP intensity (although a bit quicker) based on your current 10k fitness than it is 3:00 goal pace and I think that's a good thing.  That might also explain why you were able to do it without problems.

    If I were you I'd not be doing any of my MP workouts at 3:00 hr marathon pace (which is largely an irrelevance at this stage) at the moment because you are fitter than that.  

    You've obviously come into this thing in good shape which is great to see.

  • Interesting that this schedule has such an amount of MP - or quicker - sessions already but Gobi's advice on the "forum six" (admittedly for VLM and hence 4 weeks or so behind) is to try and keep MP out of it for now and advice is slower is better. Will be great to see how Pete and Martin both get on coming at it from somewhat different angles
  • PT is obviously a fantastic mara time waiting to happen. Moraghan, why do you say 'MP intensity'? I find it harder to hit the paces in training than in a race scenario. Wouldn't this suggest MP intensity would be slightly slower than race day?

    I know with Fraser's training you had him running MP in training at about 20secs faster than his race day target so for a 3:10 target (7:15mm), should I be aiming for around 6:55 for MP in training and making it a very hard session?

  • Well done Pete hope the trainings going well. Did my first race of the year on monday (10k) and was horribly unprepared! How do you manage training in the cold and wet weather? Do you go to the gym or grin and bear it outside?
  • BandB - all of this is my opinion.  At this point I don't make any association between eventual race pace MP and current MP intensity.  At this stage of affairs I use the MP workouts as an intensity designed to improve fitness.

    As, at this stage, we aren't at a point where we are not doing the brutal long session with MP I find the best way to calculate the MP intensity is to use shorter race times, in this case a recent 10k.  So in Peter's case which race time (a previous 3.04 marathon, a recent all out 10k, a future marathon pace) is likely to give the best indication of fitness for a workout where overall fatigue and fuelling (i.e. essentially not a marathon specific workout) aren't the primary concerns?

    I'd go with the 10k time.  Based on Peter's 10k time we can see that his challenge for this campaign is to be able to extend his existing speed to the marathon distance - he already has more than enough speed for the challenge.  Whereas Kryptonite, on the other thread, doesn't have the speed at the moment but she can probably maintain her current speed just fine.  (This is often the way with men and women).

    That would be why Peter can run 7m @ eventual (perhaps!) goal pace MINUS 30 seconds whereas Kryptonite would find this utterly impossible.  Nothing should be read into what will happen on the day from this of course - but it's clear that the challenges for the two athletes are very different.  This is why you can't use an off the shelf schedule for different runners.

    Fraser, if he doesn't mind me saying, was similar to Peter.  His eventual goal pace was slower than early MP pace because the latter was to develop fitness and then a couple of workouts told us that it was unlikely he'd be able to maintain that pace so we did our goal marathon pace workouts later in the campaign slower to reflect what would get him the best time on the day. 

    That's no comment on any of the athletes training / determination of course, it's just that to a certain extent the training design is restricted by the athlete type and their training background.  I, for example, have very good speed (relatively) but a tragic inability to extend that speed over distance. 

  • B&B - after all that waffle......  I would base your early campaign MP workouts on a recent short distance race time and forget about what you think you might do on the day until much later on.
  • Pete - Good times so far.  Very encouraging and putting me in the shade a little at the moment.  I think you are a week ahead of me though as Paris is April 10th if I am correct?

    All of this about the early MP runs being quicker than eventual MP is very interesting and makes quite alot of sense, in that the shorter runs are always easier to hold at a faster pace.  Once the MP runs become 10-15 miles, then the intensity will have to drop.  However, by starting the training quite a bit faster than MP you have a better chance of maintaining a pace quicker than eventual MP for longer during the final race.   If that makes sense.

    At present, as I have not trained before at a high weekly mileage, Gobi has advised me to run most runs slower for a couple of weeks to get used to longer distances and then introduce more MP runs and speedwork.  It will be interesting to see how the different training approaches convert into marathon times come April.

    Keep it going!!!

  • It's a bit late now if Fraser did mind! Seriously though, thanks for the comprehensive explanation.

    So, the initial MP practice pace, when run on its own, roughly equates to the current HM raced pace and is a lactate threshold run? My schedule for May starts on the 17th and I'm keen to get the training paces right before I start (obviously I've been accumulating base miles for a couple of months). Your suggestion of using a recent short race pace would be fine but I haven't raced since May (other than an Autumn marathon). I can't use the HMP as a marker as that was my first race, in March 2010 and I jogged the first half. Hopefully there's a parkrun starting near me soon so should I race that, in your opinion, or is that too short to be reflective of a pace for the longer distance?

    Until now, I've run MP stints at the end of longer runs as a progressive session, from 10secs slower to 30 secs faster than (arbitrary!) goal MP.

    Sorry for hi-jacking your thread a little PT, although I'm sure it'll provide some useful information for the lurkers and posters.

  • Band B/Moraghan - please don't interrupt me - I'm very busy systematically throwing every single one of my toys out of my big pram and having a massive tantrumimage. More than happy to have my (considerable) limitations discussed in public !
  • I really enjoy these pace debates....all at timne i can't even maintain for half a mile......image
  • Blisters and beer wrote (see)

    So, the initial MP practice pace, when run on its own, roughly equates to the current HM raced pace and is a lactate threshold run? My schedule for May starts on the 17th and I'm keen to get the training paces right before I start (obviously I've been accumulating base miles for a couple of months). Your suggestion of using a recent short race pace would be fine but I haven't raced since May (other than an Autumn marathon). I can't use the HMP as a marker as that was my first race, in March 2010 and I jogged the first half. Hopefully there's a parkrun starting near me soon so should I race that, in your opinion, or is that too short to be reflective of a pace for the longer distance?

    I don't have my own figures to give you a calculation but if you were to input your latest race time into macmillan or such like it would give you a marathon prediction - you can then use that pace as marathon intensity.  It's very unlikely that would be close to your HM pace unless you significantly underperformed in the HM race, it was out of date or saw rapid improvement in a later race time which you used to calculate from (in which case the HM would probably be out of date).

    Hope that's clear.  I wouldn't do this at HMP - it's too quick.

    So, if you put Peter's latest 10k time into macmillan you'd get a good idea of an approximate marathon intensity pace based on current fitness.

    A parkrun would work to give you a ballpark unless it's historically out of whack with other distances.  By the way MP sections at the end of progression workouts are great too.

  • I'm back and it seems the thread has kind of kicked on a bit since my last visit! Really interesting stuff though and if i was mentoring you Steve i think this whole experience would have a very different and largely unsuccessful outcome! Don't leave meimage!

    Thanks Kirsty yeah it going well thanks and i have to admit i'm am one of those guys in high vis jackets out dodging the rain on a winter eve. Good work on the 10k and good to here your keeping it going.

     A lot of what your saying Morgan makes good sense and i appreciate the positivity coming from everyone, its good to know i've got your support and people are interested in my progress. In relation to MP it seems that that session, although initially seeming quite unrealistic, was possible. I'm not going to say it was an easy session by any means and i was putting it in but whereas previously i think a session like that would have wiped me out for a few days,  i feel like after today's easier session that i'll be relatively fresh for tomorrow. I apologise if i sound naive about certain discussions on intensity and pacing but it is all relatively new to me and i'm trying to get round it myself. Is good to see discussions going on though and long may it continue.

    As a few of you have mentioned it is becoming clear that i have got the speed for sub 3 but am yet to show i have the ability to maintain that over longer runs.  I am by no means going to get carryied away with current progress and know that it is the endurance aspect of my running i need to work on, that an resisting the box of chocs ive got in the fridge!

    Martin H - Yeah paris is april the 10th so a week ahead of you on the schedule. Interesting differences in approaches between us both but hopefully it will lead to positive outcomes for us both. Sorry B&B for not commenting directly on much of what you said but interesting to read your discussions with Morgan and i'm learning everyday image.

  • Some excellent advice here and I agree with most of what has been said. I agree Peter's speed is exceptionally good and that he may be capable of doing some runs faster than scheduled and that his marathon potential may be well inside 3:00. At this stage personally I don't like training too quickly though. I see January and February (while there are lots of faster paced runs planned) as primarily building up stamina and endurance.

    My view is if you go too quickly on marathon paced runs, there is an increased chance of injury and it may potentially affect your racing performances and speed sessions.

    In terms of racing, It may seem negative but I know so many people who read various conversion charts and from that decide they can run a certain time say 2:45-2:50 - set out at that pace and pay for it and run 3:05 or even 3:20 when had they run a 2:55-2:59 pace, they would have probably achieved it with something in hand. My philosophy is once you've run 2:55-2:59 then try for the 2:50.

    I agree though at this stage, you shouldn't have too many preconceived ideas about what marathon pace may be possible almost 4 months on.

  • Just to clarify the training times in schedules are approx as runners say in the sub-3 schedule could ultimately be capable of anything between 2:45 and 3:10 and the times given could be rounded up or down and it will say approx 45 minutes rather than maybe say 46:40 which an exact  marathon pace may work out.

    The  paces are indeed more like what are given on the website ie steady/marathon pace, half marathon pace, 10k pace though ultimately should be based on current fitness, personal preferences, and circumstances and future targets but it shouldn't just be seeing it says 4M in approx 25 minutes and think the schedule is demanding you run it in 6:15s.

    Ideally I need to go through this week's schedule and make suggestions as to what pace I think would make sense for Peter to complete his sessions in but ultimately it's for him to decide on how he feels.

  • Steve,

    If Peter can learn one thing in the whole thing he should read your comment above that a runner should only try 2.50 when you have ran 2.55-2.59(you have the rest of your life to run fast but you only break 3 once.

    Friend of mine recently ran Dublin. I had him at 2.54 on a good day. He never broke 3 before. I told him straight out. Try and break my time and you might blow up or run 3 hour pace until 23 and run 2.58. He done hte later one and never enjoyed a race as much. In full control all  through and always knew he had it.. His aim was to break 3 so thats all he had to do. I rem the prog Limits with Alex Zero.........his bet was to run sub 2.45 to get 20 odd k for a documentary. He was in that shape. He had a go at 2.40 and blew up...........why risk 16 weeks of training for a few min when you can achieve the target and the nxt one you do you can get the big one.

    I love success stories and runners that are cute.

    Its some buzz passing runners at 24 miles and although you are tired you a flying by them. You get quicker.

    Lonely woods in paris from 32 to 38k if I remember it right. you dont want ot be struggling here with no support.

  • Some great advice there Steve, and I think applicable to other time targets rather than just sub 3 hours in principal.
  • Thanks for the information Steve.  Just to clarify I would never use a conversion chart to arrive at a goal marathon pace - only as a tool to determine early marathon pace intensity.  That may sound counterintuitive of course.  The goal pace decision is a confluence of a number of factors - mainly training indications.

    Interesting thoughts on the effects on speedwork and racing. Is that purely because of the fatigue induced by MP runs?

    I also think the timing of, and distance run on, MP-type runs is very much dependent and dictated by exactly what the runner has been doing prior to embarking on some sort of 16 week plan. 

    It also seems to be the case that the faster the runner the harder it can be to do lengthy MP runs early on in a campaign.  In the same way 2 hr half marathoners sometimes appear to be able to do things like 10m @ HMP untapered training which would be out of the question for a 1 hr marathoner (for example).  Would be interested in your thoughts on this Steve / anyone else.

  • I agree that some sessions in terms of their respective  paces that slower runners can do easily what would be beyond faster runners. A sweeping statement and obviously there are many exceptions, but it may be that faster runners are closer to their maximum potential and have trained more to their limits while some slower runners who train less in total may have more untapped potential. Ie if a sub-4 hour runner trained 70 miles a week they may be able to improve a greater percentage than a sub-2:30 runner and they may be capable of running some training sessions quicker than their race paces,

    I agree that the quality of the runs through January does depend on what level of fitness you embarked on the campaign. I am the least fittest I've ever been and my speed of training is adversely affected.

    Re MP runs - to be effective they have to be quite long and therefore take time to recover from. Personally I find they take more out of me than shorter speed sessions though that could be because I have done 2 speed sessions a week for over 30 years and relatively few marathon paced runs which is probably a fault in my own running but I acknowledge they are vital to someone with less experience. At the moment I would be happy with Peter getting used to running 6:50s in marathon style pace training even though his 10k race pace indicates he could go quicker so he is fresher for other sessions

  • Just a quick question steve - How important do you feel the hill repeat sessions are?I have a few weeks of these coming up on my schedule and will be doing them in place of the tuesday speed session for a few weeks.

    I still fit in the tempo run and long run for the week, but what kind of effect do you think this will have overall? am i best to scrap the hill repeats and do the pure speed session? i would like to fit all the sessions into the week but am sure that would be over doing it.
  • Hills are important but not as essential as interval work or speed endurance. They build leg strength and a certain amount of speed but you could argue running up and down a hill fast is less relevant to running 26 miles steadily than doing interval work which is maybe more close to 10k running which has a knock on effect to marathon.

    I would therefore do some hills but if there was a choice, I  would choose intervals 3 times out of 4. there are no real hills in London or Paris etc (Boston would require more hill sessions)

    Agree You can't do everything. I ran a really bad cross-country today (in terms of position compared to normal though it was actually better than recent training deserved) and will find long run hard tomorrow. At least, while I achieved a personal worst, one of my group had a blinder and won her first senior county champs at 47 fairly comfortably beating 2 girls half her age who had previously beaten her.

    Got home to watch televised cross-country from Edinburgh on Skyplus and could hear Bud's voice booming out as on course commentator so he's definitely in the country!

  • The link at front of thread re training schedule doesn't seem to work and though found one in London schedules, confusion over the schedule in last week (presume as adapted from a Paris to London schedule) but this is what I think Peter should attempt in next 8 days...

    Sun 15M steady in around 7:30 miling

    WEEK FOUR (Jan 10-16): approx 47M

    Mon 5M easy in 8 minute miles

    Tue 1M jog, then 7 x 1000m at 10K speed (or 4 mins) with 200m (1-min) jog recoveries, then 1M jog

    (start just inside 4 minutes and gradually try and get down to around 3:40-3:45.)


    Wed 9M easy in 8 minute miles

    Thu 6M steady in 7:00 to 7:30 - start at 7:30s and gradualy pick up pace

    Fri 4M easy in 8 minute miles with strides
    Sat  rest
    Sun 15M in approx 1:50 (First 7M easy in 56 mins, last 8M at marathon pace in approx 54-55 mins)

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