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ASICS Super Six: Alison (Sub-3:30)
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Moraghan
My 14 minute improvement was in the 70s so seems strange to be congratulated but long overdue as no one noticed at the time!
You obviously know your stuff - I remember your excellent training thread about training specifically for an event and I seem to recall you also saying something about the need for enjoying training. Alison who deserves her opportunity to shoot for 3:30, will hopefully enjoy most of the training and having tremendous positive support from fellow forumites. If she does, I'll be happy and i'm sure so will RW and Asics.
Personally I strugged to run at marathon pace last week when I tried but like many others struggling now, it will be different after months of training and when the adrenaline flows and when rested and tapered.
I was 4 at the time but never forget a face!
Ho hum....I think I preferred the talk of chocolate etc, rather than the gloomy 'will she, won't she' discussion.
Today is the 6th January.....so much can change over the next three months that it's hardly worth the effort of discussion about specific targets at this stage, other than as the most general ball-park figure possible. As always, see how the training goes.
Alison, hope your having a few half-decent sessions......I've just got in from a 5m tempo that was so lung-bustingly out of my league that I had to slow down twice just to stay conscious. But next week may be slightly better. Or not.
I thought we might have had a sensible discussion about adjusting training paces based on current fitness but people seem to be happy with Alison doing quality workouts against the definition of "brisk" despite the evidence of our eyes that she is trying to hit specified training paces based on a target time. I'll drop it.
I still can't work out which schedule Alison is following - the one linked twice doesn't relate to the one workout we did hear about. Anyone please provide a link? Is it the subscribers version?
I've been trying to dig out some of my times from the past. I ran my first three marathons in 3.43, 3.41, 3.31. I knocked 10 mins off between the second and third just through purely running more and running a bit faster. Me and speed sessions don't go together. I had plenty of endurance and just managed to run a bit quicker on the day. (Saying that I've still not got under 3.30, and now appreciate more, and understand, the need to get faster over shorter distances in order to go faster over a longer distance). Last year I did a half marathon in 1.48 and was done in at the end. I believed I could not run any faster. 4 weeks later I ran a marathon in 3.32. Mental strength is a great thing
This year I've listened to what people like Moraghan and Matchstick Man are saying about training paces based on current fitness and I've adopted this in my schedule.
Is it possible to post Alison's weekly sessions?
I'd like to add my vote to Lake's and Minni's - I've followed RW schedules for years, and mostly haven't managed the speedwork paces, nor come remotely close to the target 10k times for that matter, but finally got down below 3.30 last year. Some people can do it through speedwork, others just by putting in the miles.
I'm also interested to know which schedule you're following, particularly as the online version has just changed (getting rid of the hideous 3 x long reps in week 2 - hooray!)
Blimey. Just signed in to catch up on what's going on... Quite a lot I see, and not all good.
No time to read through everything now, but will respond later.
Hi Alison.
I don't think anything written on here is 'bad' or indeed written as a personal comment about you (my opinion anyway)
I see two discussion points. One is the appropriate training paces at the start of a marathon campaign and whether we should train to 'aspirational' pace or current fitness. Or even whether it is appropriate to tag on pace ranges for people to follow in the first place. Personally I think you be as well training to 'effort' at this stage, your paces will improve as your fitness does for any given effort.
The second is something that is raised annually at the RW Super Six competitions. I think Steve has made a similar comment but RW should make it much clearer that your 3.30 goal is not something that is written in tablets of stone. How can you know what you are capable of so far out? I did the SSX comp in 2009 and went for 3.15(from 3.30 so similar to you, big chunk off my time etc), which I wasn't quite ready for but it became such a huge pressure for me. I made massive progress in my shorter distance times but I couldn't really ever see it like that, because it wasn't quite good enough to justify going for '3.15'. So instead of celebrating the positive, I felt guilty about not achieving something I only ever said I wanted as a long term aspiration anyway.
Do your best, make the most of Steve (!), try not to feel the pressure (even if it is internal and self imposed), enjoy the journey.
I am waffling a touch but essentially, just do your best and try not to see discussion as criticism, 'tis far more interesting and constructive that everyone coming on here and giving you a virtual pat on the back
Plus, a lot of it is aimed at the logistics of the competition rather than the participants
Good luck
Couldnt agree more with Sue's post!
Alison, there isnt any 'bad' comments on this thread, although I can see how you may have come to that sort of idea from a quick skim.
Essentially, there is a debate about what is in your best interests but the fact is that you can read any of the posts in isolation and you will see that they all do indeed have your best interests as the main focus.
Focussing on 3:30 is a futile, and a potentially destructive, exercise. Far better just to relax and enjoy the training.
Its not as though you are in completely new territory here. You have already completed a marathon in 3:44 so you know what that took in terms of training input and effort on the day. So judge your efforts against that, which is a reference point with some meaning, rather than 3:30 which is not!
Also, dont be overwhelmed by the spotlight effect of this thread. It must feel at times as though there are only six people on the forum who are actually going thorugh this training process for the next four months with the rest just picking apart each and every move - the reality is that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of us on here who are going through the same process and will be covering the same journey on April 17th...its just that you have one of the most experienced marathon runners on the planet to advise you!
Alison - to back up Sue C's post above. I was the sub 3h15 super six runner in 2010 and by my own admission had a fantastic 16 week build-up to London. I missed about 3 sessions over that time and hit the markers / paces every time in the first 8 weeks. Unfortunately, I picked up a slight virus in the last few days and I recognise now that the pressure that had been building up as someone in the goldfish bowl just erupted on the day and I ran a personal worst. I don't mind admitting I broke down on the way to the start, during the race (twice) and then at the post race reception. Because things hadn't happened how I wanted/envisaged them to on the day I found it very hard to cope with. Out of the 5 of us who toed the startline last year, 4 of us ran slower times than we wanted and I think it's because we all got so caught up in the time-constrained target we were assigned. Although we ran at different speeds, we found out after the event that we experienced the same emotions and lows.
This is why I personally am trying to get you to just focus on the training you're doing on a day to day basis and not the eventual time at Paris. If you can't hit the markers that the plan says you should then so what? Use the plan and Steve to run the sessions as described so if it says brisk then run at a brisk pace for your current fitness level.
Enjoy the experience and use it to run your fastest time at Paris. Bon chance!
For some reason I can't edit my post above, otherwise I would have corrected the obvious little innacuracy about which marathon you are running..
Nonetheless, it doesnt affect the general thrust of the post....
Gosh - glad it's rest day - have you seen the rain?!
Thank you all so much for your support. Am going to stop fretting over 3:30, just train really hard based on effort, enjoy runnning again, and do my best.
Turns out I've been following an old schedule! That's resloved now. Also, remember I'm doing Paris, so am a week ahead of the schedule Alice attached at the start of this thread.
So, tomorrow's session for me is: 4M inc hill session or circuit
Any suggestions on what kind of cicuit to do?
A/K
When coaching on line words like brisk / steady are really unhelpful. They mean totally different things to different people. As an illustration:
Someone earlier in the thread defined brisk for a 2 mile rep as "as quick as you can for that length of time rather than trying to hold a pace you can't sustain". Well, for me that is 2 mile race pace - I aim able to sustain my pace for the length of the race and no more. Is that what brisk is meant to mean? Hell, no.
Honestly, how many of you get ready for a quality workout having no clue at your target pace / heart rate? I bet the 2 Steve's are the only ones as they have the extensive background and experience to judge their intention. They are also the least likely to be following a schedule.
So what do you think happens when a relatively inexperienced runner gets an instruction like 2m brisk (HM pace 15:00)? Is she going to follow the word brisk - when we can't even define it objectively, or is she going to pick on the pace specified. What do you think?
Now, when in this case the pace is clearly unsuitable for the current level of fitness by trying to run at this pace she's changing the INTENTION of the workout. That impacts the schedule all the way down the line.
By all means give a target pace range but do the prep work to ensure that the target pace range is correct. That way when the intention of the schedule is to run 2 miles at HM she is able to run 2 miles at that pace because it's appropriate to her fitness (thus providing the correct stimulus) and thus serves the intention of the workout.
Kryptonite - you are doing yourself no favours here by posting so rarely - it's just everybody else is too polite to mention it. It will be much easier if you utilise Steve's knowledge before and after a workout so you are clear beforehand what you are doing is correct and appropriate for your fitness.
The rest of you need to learn to distinguish between what you perceive to be trolling and some constructive feedback. If it's not a slap on the back it doesn't mean it is a slap in the face.
argh, x-post. Please link the schedule you are using - this should be week 3.
Have you done circuits before / recently?
I too was wondering about tomorrow as I have the same session and have not done either a specific hill or circuit session before ( although I do like the sound of Minni's suggestion). Also neither of us have any sort of pace suggested for it. I have emailed Bud to ask about this but would be happy to take advice on here.
While it is good to post as much as possible we do have to accept that life can get in the way of this at times. I am able to nip on at work sometimes but not always.
this thread is a great read - some really insightful /objective points to consider from Moraghan
i'd probably also add that just because are supportive of K, it doesn't mean that they disagree with what your saying
In terms of the hill work, all I would say is be very careful especially if you havent done that sort of thing before.
Steve may have different ideas but I would say forget the pace and concentrate on maintaining good running form as you run uphill. There is a lot of stress on the achilles/ankles that will be outside the normal range of movement so any untidiness in running form will just exacerbate the risk involved.
As long as you get the heart pumping and survive to do the next session then that will constitute a job well done in my book.
Alison I’d also second the suggestion that you take advantage of the mentoring opportunity here and post as much info as you can before workouts as well as reporting back. If something looks daft or you need clarification on something I’m sure people will chip in, as is happening now in fact.
I love the sound of Minni's circuit too. Could do that daily!
I have emailed Steve on the circuit thing, so we'll see what they come up with... I don't imagine it'll involve coffee and pastries tho!
Good idea Alison. To me a 'hill session' and a 'hill circuit' are two different things, the latter being more like a Kenyan hills type session running at tempo effort over a hilly/undulating route. Hill session as PRF suggests, running up and down an appropriate hill for X amount of times, concentrating on form.
Really, I would think the schedule should specify. Is that session 4m in total? No warm up and cool down.
Now I am off to the 3.15 SSX thread to complain about the lack of mentor there. Why is nobody mentioning it? It's like an elephant in the room - MM, I expect you to back me up after the support we received in 2009 and 2010
Mmmince pies. Must say, am almost saturated with dried fruit and pastry, and they are going cheap in the shops right now, even the posh deep fill ones... BUT hot cross buns are in the shops already, which is excellent news! Dried fruit and bread with butter on top - just a mince pie in another yummy format!
Have never had any injury problems when doing hill sprints in the past. In fact, hill sprints were the only speed training I did for Paris last year. So bring on the hills I say!
Ran up the Wallace Monument in Stirling on New Year's Day morning - steeeeeeeeeeep! I've got a pic, but no idea how to upload it. Also, every pic I try to upload as a sort of profile pic is too big - is there a way of squashing them? I'm not so good with IT...
This is the workout:
Sat 4M inc hill session or circuit
This should have been the week:
WEEK THREE (approx 34M)
Mon Rest
Tue 1M jog, then 3 x 1M or 1600m at 10K pace (or 7 mins) with 400m (or 2-min) jog recoveries, then 1M jog
Wed 6M easy (approx 54 mins)
Thu 1M jog, then 4M at half-marathon pace (30 mins)then 1M jog
Fri Rest
Sat 4M inc hill session or circuit
Sun 12M steady (approx 1:42)
What have you done this week Kryptonite?