RW Forum Six - Sub 3:30



  • CG, hopefully just nerves and you'll be fine in the morning.

    AA, never mind. It's done now. I sometimes think the tough ones give you more strength than the easy ones.
  • DD, congratulations. Great result.

     Mimmi and CG, good luck for tomorrow.

    AA, seconded to Mr Spoons comment. Going through tough moments in training definitely helps me going through tough moments in racing.

  • Morning

    Minni / CG:  good luck for today, its normal not to feel 100% the day before a key race, I was convinced I had a cold coming on the morning of the marathon... Its just your brain playing tricks.

    AA: You got out there and did it, we all have tough days. But remember you never regret the runs you did its the ones you didn't do that you regret.

    Go well all of you.

  • AA sorry about the long run, although I agree with others that it sounds like a blip brought on by a hard week. Mine went well yesterday, following a horrible run last week and funnily enough I'd been saying on the general thread that I seem to have a regular 16-miler nightmare that hits early in the campaign, so I think you could be on to something.

    Hope you made it out OK today CG, looking forwad to your and Minni's race report. 

  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭
    Will do a report when I get home but a bad day at the office. 1.39 but had a shocking run due to cramp. Tired muscles? Not a happy bunny image
  • Managed a slow 17 miles here this morning, averaged 9.14. Legs were tired + achy, longest run yet though, just thinking endurance/time on feet... planning more sleep next week, this week was manic with report writing + assessment marking, thinking 6-6 1/2 hours sleep isn't enough with this training!

    Looking forward to your race reports Minni + c.g
  • Just saw your post Mini, what a pain that you got cramp, nightmare! A good time considering? Chin up, it's still early days, you'll bounce back image
  • Cramp is just a hydration issue which is easily rectified. With that you still ran quicker and you're going in the right direction. Well done.
    Dubai Dave - great run there well done
  • I thought the "cramping caused by hydration" hypothesis has been largely discredited, unless you listen to Gatorade.  

    Minni - I'd look towards your training for the answers.

  • Minni, that's a PB isn't it, so fantastic given the circumstances and at a relatively early stage in your marathon campaign. Have you any more races planned before the marathon?

     I read cramps were due to mineral deficiencies, but don't know how reliable the source was.

  • Minni - I hate to be the bearer of bad news but official time is 1:41. You were a few seconds behind me on gun time and a few ahead on chip time.

    Minni passed me at around the 11 mile mark. She was struggling with cramp and I had stitch that was annoying more than painful but I couldn't get my legs moving any faster. I passed her again as she stopped to stretch. Really felt for her but I was suffering my own personal pain and couldn't even summon up any words of encouragement.

    I was expecting a few minutes quicker really but I woke with a sore throat and slight cough this morning and it is still early days. I am taking it as an encouraging sign that my HR was a lot lower than I would normally expect for a HM (more like MP) so I wasn't running flat out but I'm not sure why my legs wouldn't let me maintain the pace. The usual pattern is that my HR rises so that it is more effort to maintain pace.

  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭

    Oh god, that's even worse.  I'd gone off my garmin time which is on auto pause when I'm stopped.  Forgot about that.image

    Just downloading my data then I'll report......

  • We are all in the early stages of our training and need to realise that we are not in peak condition yet. I think our bodies are getting used to the increase in mileage. My legs are still really aching today and it was hurting even taking the dogs for a walk!

    Tomorrow is a new week of training and we pick ourselves up and get back out there. It's weekends like this that make us stronger, I swear from experience.

  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭


    On finishing the race the cramps moved from my legs to my stomach and I've not had a pleasant journey home to say the least! image

    I'll give you my splits first then analyse  .....

    1.  7.15

    2.  7.17

    3.  7.14

    4.  7.20

    5.  7.15

    6.  7.23

    7.  7.46 (this was when the first cramp hit in the back of my left leg, took gel, stretched, water)

    8.  7.29

    9.  7.37 (bit of cramp down the front (quad)of my left leg, gel)

    10.  7.50 (cramp back to the back (hamstring area) of my left leg and continued on and off from this

                  point onwards)

    11. 8.30

    12. 7.49

    13. 0.50

    I felt really good in the first 5 miles;  I felt as if I could go faster and had to slow myself down on several occasions.  Then on mile 7 I started to feel the tightness of cramp. I tried to run through it but it wasn't easing.  I took a gel and some water, stretched on a fence and it eased.  I'd been running with a group who'd quickly got a good bit ahead but during mile 8  I caught then back up.  Then during mile 9 I started to feel cramp in my other leg (I'd possibly changed my stride slightly to compensate for left leg...).  Again, stopped and stretched.  It was back in the left leg by mile 10 and, again, I took on a gel, stretched etc.  From here on in I was bothered with it.  I took on a form of tourettes punching my leg and swearing at it every time it misbehaved and this cleared it for a time.  When the cramp wasn't there I was feeling great and able to pull away but when it hit I couldn't run through it. 

    I was really mad with myself and could have easily started to cry but didn't want to lose anymore salt through tears......

    In 2009 I ran London (3.32) then Edinburgh (3.42), 5 weeks apart,  I was troubled with cramp during shorter races for the rest of the year but I wasn't  bothered with it last year.

    Looking at my training over the past week:  I ran the 12 miles fell race 7 days ago which involved a lot of climb and my hamstring has had twinges since.   On Friday I ran 10 miles at 8.18 m/m, which I knew was too fast just 2 days before a half marathon.  

    I think my hydration was ok.  I drank the usual PSP22 before the race and made sure I was well hydrated yesterday.  

     Now for the positives..... I think I ran a 10k pb and certainly ran a 10 mile pb today, but not a half (1.36 back in 2006).   My OH ran is first half on the bare minimum of training and finished in 2.17.  Very proud of him image.

    ho hum...... 

  • Minni, sounds like it was an incredibly frustrating experience image. Well done to your OH image.

     I managed 6 miles today, bringing me to 13 miles for the week. It's v low mileage but I finished the 6 feeling like I could keep going and so given that 2.5 miles felt tough last week I'm pleased with that progress and it gives me something I can build on. A friend's 5 year old was visiting earlier in the day, and as a result I had Nellie the Elephant stuck in my head the entire run image. Lots of tidying up to do now.

    I was around lots of people with bad colds this week, which was the last thing I needed, but a combination of echnicea, first defence and vit C seem to have done the job.

  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭
    Small steps BecsA.... You'll soon be back up to speed.  What date is the Reading half?
  • Minni - I feel your pain. Do you have any other races lined up before London? How about making that 10k PB official at Dewsbury in a couple of weeks? image
  • March 20th, so I won't get in as much training as I'd have liked but I should be able to make quite a bit of progress by then provided I can train consistently for the remaining weeks.
  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭
    We were both in a similar place today CG.  Not a nice place to be...   Sorry I didn't see you at the end.  I grabbed some warm clothes and heading down the course a bit to cheer OH in.  I'll look at the Dewsbury 10k, but I'm just not sure that I can do both endurance and speed at the same time.  Another thought has occurred to me... maybe I'm just getting too old.... 
  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭
    That's still about 10 weeks BecsA so sounds like you have time. 
  • Me too. When I bumped into EPS at the end and he asked how I was, I replied 'Older and slower'.image

  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭
    I think we both need wine..... image
  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭
    Just out of interest CG, what do you think causes your stitch?  I remember you having the same problem in London 2009.  That's as frustrating as cramp.
  • Minni - popped over from the other thread to have read. Sorry it didn't work out for you today. We've all had those days......relax for a bit then time for some reflection and - the hard bit - brutal self analysis and working on the bits where you know you owe it to yourself to make some changes. You'll bounce back from this cos I can tell it means alot to you which is half the battle for changing things. Can I ask how old/young you are ???
  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭
    41 Fraser, 42 this year. 
  • Minni - sorry it didn't go to plan. When I was training for NY I suffered cramp in the calf and started drinking dirolite (that drink you take when you've got sickness or diarheoa - can't spell!!) it really helped. High mileage and sweating a lot takes a lot of salts and minerals from the body.

    Well done to your OH. I am still stiff as anything today so on the red wie for relaxing muscle purposes image

    BecsA - I am also doing Reading half as v local to me. And Wokingham half in 4 weeks. And Bramley 20 in 5 weeks. Thats my pre-London lot.

    CG - the mileage you put in is amazing. It will all come together on the 17th April. What year did we run some of London together?

  • For once I have no words of wisdom for you as I have never suffered from either cramps or stitches.

    By only thought it that you're obviously not too old Minni so stop that nonsense thinking immediately.
  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭

    AA  when did you drink it?  All the time, during runs, after runs...?  I'm really good at hydrating so I think it has more to do with pace, but I'm willing to consider anything. 

    Another point, I dropped about 3 pounds last week, which is normal for me at this stage but maybe that, along with other factors had something to do with it,

    Probably I went off too fast....

  • Morning All

    Ok so it didn't go quite the way you wanted it to go but what are the positives?

    Well for starters you seem to have run about a 44 min 10K and then a 74-36 10 mile, as per your post both of these are PB's for you. For the record I have run sub 3-30 marathons off times very similar to those for 10K & 10 miles. 

    Cramp: A quick troll through several articles on the internet appear to show that dehydration and mineral deficiency are no longer considered the likely cause of cramps, and "altered neuromuscular control" is the current favourite, to prevent cramp percieved wisdom appears now to be

    Improve fitness and avoid muscle fatigueStretch regularly after exerciseWarm up before exercise

    Therefore it may well be that Morgahan is right and you need to look at your training. I guess the first question to ask is did you warm up before your race yesterday? I would normally trot about 2 -3 miles before a 1/2M slowly speeding up throughout the session with the last 500M at race pace, aiming to be done 30 mins before race start.

    The next thing I would look at is speedwork in your training, you set off at 7-15 minute miles yesterday but I don't recollect you running at that pace in training at all over the past few weeks (I could be wrong and please correct me if I am). Its my opinion that if you want to race a pace you must train at the pace sometimes.

    Stretching well I'm the worlds worst at that so we will leave it alone!

    If we stick your time yesterday for 10 miles in the Macmillan calculater we get the times below up to marathon, in fact even your time for the 1/2 almost falls in with the predictions.

    10K 44-31 10M 74-35 1/2M 1-39-03 Marathon 3-28-54, so you have the ability but need to work on speed and endurance together.

    So what do you do ? I would suggest that you run your LT & VO2 sessions faster then you are at present. Incorporate higher speeds for the last portions of your long runs.  Don't dwell on it, have a rest and get back out there, from failure comes strength.

  • Oh yeah forgot to add that 41 is most definately not old. If can still PB in my 50's you most certainly can in your 40's.
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