RW Forum Six - Sub 3:30



  • Chick - the headwind was probably because you were running like the wind!

    I run to mileage as well because that appears to be what my plans always are set by. I do remember having a plan years ago for my first half marathon which was based on time and it was a good one - maybe i should rethink.

    DD - is that the preposterous Hovis Hill you mentioned last year! Ouch. What gearing do you need to get up there?

    2 x 5M runs done this week and my niggle appears to have been beaten, so I am back on track at last.

    Marathon planning is now in full construction. I have decided to nix my initial plan and go for the P&D

  • Oh yeah and good luck to the norvern contingent and Bro for Brass Monkey!

  • 2Old2Old ✭✭✭

    Ant-good to see the fall  wasnt too serious. P&D seems to dominate this thread. Looking forwrad to the Brass Monkey-it could get quite competetive hereimage

    Bro-very good track session there and a good confidence builder-you must be looking to be knocking on the door of 90mins on Sunday

    Col-I am watching my calf very carefully . Curiously the tightness never stays in particular spot other than its in the general area where the achilles joins the muscle. My general pace seems to be around 7.50-8.22 pace but I need to do more slower than that. Im avoiding quality speed stuff like you did at the moment as injury seems to be guaranted

    Barry-well done sticking to the plan-not long to go now.I know what you mean with wind turning an otherwise slow pace into fast perceived effort

    Chick-I think I did a 17 mile MP run about 5 weeks before the Liverpool Marathon and ended up seeing the physio but it sorted itself out

    11mile hill run today -up hill about or just under 8mm and down around 7.30mm, av 7.39mm. Very happy with that. 101 for the month in 9 runs.Easy tomorrow 9?mm. Planning a LR Friday before setting off for more 'altitude training' next week

  • kfc.kfc. ✭✭✭

    Eek Oompa.  Op2 sounds brutal, but hope it does the trick!

    best for age O4S - oh yeah. Whatever it is it sounds way better than just good for age

    Speedy sessions Daren, and good to see the HR going the right way

    Bro - "club coach couldnt keep up so i ditched him".  Love it.  Good run too.

    Good to see your mojo coming back DD

    Getting excited for you guys doing BM this weekend!

    As we're discussing slow recovery runs - I've never fully understood what they do (and I'd like to be enlightened!).  Within my sample size of one, when my legs are tired I find gentle cycling or rest helps them recover better than slow running.  For those that do them, how do you find they help?


    7M easy back from work last night, then a kind of progressive 10M today with 8 at 7.20.  Felt harder by perceived effort than my HR said (under 160 for whole run).  I think my brain finds it hard dealing with a faster new MP so tells me its harder.  Need a few more runs like that to get used to it.

  • KFC: you can raise your sample size to 2, totally in agreement about recovery runs and always either rest or cycle.  Also image re 'Best for Age', although for my age group a 1.45 half is somewhat tougher than 5 hours at VLM!

  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭

    KFC - I think if you do another form of recovery then the recovery runs aren't so important.  Personally though I think if you have a big running target you want to reach then the more running you do the better.  Remember that article I posted ages ago about running being a learnt action and the more you do it the better you are.  Like the juggler:  if he practices 5 hours every day he's going to be better that if he practices 1 hour every day.  And if they are just plodded then they don't take anything out of you.

    I'll see if I can find it and link it in again.



  • col.col. ✭✭✭

    2old - nice hilly run.

    kfc - that's a great 10m run. That's a run I did on a weekly basis in the build up to my last marathon. I was targeting 7:25 as my marathon pace and found this hard at first but you do get used to it.

    Minni - that's a good article on mileage and recovery runs.

  • Minni / KFC / O4S - Matt Fitzgerald (article author) also has written a book on that point:


  • KFC- I don't know how it works exactly but it does work for me. I often feel much better after a short plod following a tough session than if I rest completely. At times they feel hard to start with but after a couple of miles I seem to loosen up and feel much better by the end. They do however need to be super easy, otherwise there's no point.

    I think it's meant to have something to do with getting the blood flowing and as a result speeding up glycogen replenishment but also getting you to run when fatigued which improves fitness.

  • 2Old2Old ✭✭✭

    KFC-Col is right -great 10

    Minni-Ive read that article before but my memory isnt so good so it was a good reminder. Trouble is if Im short of time its those runs that I sacrifice and in reality the real training benefit arises when easy and quality sessions come together.

    Bro-I think the  argument is that on a RR different parts of muscles cells etc are recruited by the body than those fatigued by the previous run resulting in a more complete training effect particularly when done over time-as you are.

    O4S-5 hours for VLM? Dont you do shorter ultras in that time?

  • Minni- good article. I didn't remember it.

  • Minni - great article because i should be doing a recovery run today and the CNBA fairy arrived this morning I didn't bother. Might go out and d it later nowimage

  • Good discussion, guys! I usually feel sluggish and tired after a complete rest day. But if I plod 2 or 3 miles easy next day's workout feels so much better.

    How is our Brass contingent feeling today? Tapering and getting excited? I think 1:30 is quivering in its boots - it's so going to come under attack on Sundayimage

  • I remember that article Minni. I think I probably disagreed at the time! A couple of years ago I would have been firmly in the 'recovery runs are unnecessary' camp, and I've found it is possible to achieve good results without them. However, the Hadd stuff taught me the benefit of slow running (I ran my first sub-40 10k having literally not run faster than 8mm for 4 months beforehand!). My training at the moment incorporates a couple of recovery runs each week and I definitely think running most days and consistently putting in 40-50 mile weeks is helping to build my endurance (although I am yet to achieve any race results to back this up!).

    Another good club session last night - 10 x 1/3rd mile up an incline.

    Great 10-miler kfc. What's your max HR?

    Good luck to those racing this weekend. I've got a multi-terrain 15-mile race, the last mile of which is a steep, muddy climb. Sounds like fun. Don't think I'm going to race it flat out, as I'm building towards my HM in three weeks, but treat it like a hard training session instead.

  • I've got so close to requiring a lobotomy due to daytime tv that i've implored the OH to take me to work today!

    I'm guilty as charged when it comes to not doing recovery runs when they are due, either resting or x-training instead. The report does make an awful lot of sense.

    P.S - Why can't i insert smiley faces any more... Is it only the the long term sick notes that are affected, or is everyone having this issue??? [ANGRY FACE]  

  • Oompa- It's me as well. The only smily face that works is this one.image

    Daren- the 15m race sounds like fun!

    Chick- 1.30 has nothing to fear from me but I'm sure Carrot and Minni will give it a good beating. I can't even ask them to buy me a drink while they're waiting as I'm still on the wagon... rubbish!

    40min plod around Regents Park done. It feels like spring out there today.

  • It's poured down all day here again (angry face!) under water again now image

  • 2Old2Old ✭✭✭

    AA-dry as a bone here and forecast to be the same tomorrow-loooks like the TM for you againimage

    Bro-nice plod

    Daren-challenging race this weekend

    Chick- yes 90 mins is going to be history

    Oomp- a lobotomy? Not more surgeryimage

  • So, what's the full line-up for the Brass Monkey smackdown?

  • kfc - that is a very strong run this early in the campaign. During my Berlin build up last year, I was running three times a week but the mid week run was between 10 and 15 miles and included  a lot of MP miles or quicker.

    Agree that recovery runs help, hardest thing is getting out the door and the tired legs for the first miles or so.

    Rest day for me today and probably tomorrow as  cutback week and got a bit ahead with the runs at the start of the week.  Lots or rollering and stretching.


  • Chick your mileage benchmarks are a little scary! Most I've ever done in one week is 64.  Must take some doing to get 70-80!

    Nearly half way there Barry! I'm with you on the rollering and stretching.  So dull but the legs feel so much better afterwards.

    Nice mile reps yesterday Bro. What is your target for Sunday?  You're definitely on for knocking a big chunk off your PB. 

    Minni no pressure for Sunday, relax and that finish time beginning with an '8' will be yours.  And if relaxing doesn't work just imagine I'm chasing you downimage

    Good luck with the 15M race Daren! Those 40-50M weeks will have made you stronger.

    No such things as a taper or cutback for me ahead of Sunday, I've been told to run it at marathon pace as it will only be a fortnight since I raced the last HM.  I'll do my best to stick to the plan!  Legs will probably be tired anyway as tomorrow is a tempo run, today was 13M steady, Track Tuesday was 8 x 600m and I've also done an easy 8M.  It's not seemed like it's rained much here but there's still plenty of mud and water along the railway lines, my legs were caked in thick mud after todays run.

  • Minni /Barry - you're slacking in the 1000 challenge, get back out there, and do more milesimage.

    Minni - If running is a learnt skill, and you plod your recoveries, aren't you just learning to plodimage.

    10m off-road run for me, pinewoods, dunes and beach with a bit of Tarmac. Paces from 10.20, across the dunes, to 7.48 for the last mile, all ok. Did a good deed for the day,  and helped a little old granny with her tartan 4wheel shopping trolley across a railway bridge. There must of been about 50-60 steps up and over the railway. I only let go of her for a couple of secs, whilst I checked I'd paused my garmin. I mean, I'm not going to let a granny ruin my stats FFSimage.

    Looking forward to the racers this w/end, DBSimage.

  • 2Old2Old ✭✭✭

    Simon- re learning to plod's the bits in between the plods and then their combined and accumulated effect with plods that does the trick...but you knew that anyway. Were you at the Formby pine woods ? I took up running there and did my first 10k on the beach and through the pinewoods . Can't beat it as a gym 

    Carrot- tough period going on for you over these few days But I bet you ignore instructions. 

    Barry- get the rest've had a tough few weeks.Are you doing Brass Monkey?




  • Minni very interesting article

    Darren good luck with the multi terrain race

    Ran after work today - Although it was chucking it down it felt refreshing to be out there but I could still feel my lunch.


  • 2old - I don't know what you mean, I was hoping for Minni to take the baitimage. Yes from Ainsdale end, into the pinewoods just before the railway bridge. Head towards the beach, then turn left for Formby. Normally when I get to the Squirrel reserve, I head into the pinewoods and up Victoria Rd, where the posh scosers live. Left after the level crossing into the car park, and then over the railway line and golf course and back along the side of the pinewoods, total about 7m. But ran further along the beach towards Altcar rifle range, to make it 10m. 

  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭

     Carrot - That sounds like one hell of a week.  A MP run at this stage will be ideal for where you're at in your training.

    DarenF wrote (see)

    So, what's the full line-up for the Brass Monkey smackdown?

    I think its:


    My aim will be to run as fast as I can for as long as I can.  I've put in some good sessions since GNR in Sept but we'll have to wait and see if it shows on the day.  The forecast looks ideal.


  • 2Old2Old ✭✭✭

    Simon- love that run ,shame I haven't done it for a long while. On one run along the beach at the Ainsdale end I came across a dead seal. Posh scousers and footballers!

    Minni- isnt the idea  to target the pace to get you under 90, stick closely  to it and if you've got anything left- and you will- in the last few miles, go for it? even the weather is on your side image

    easyish 6.25m run tonight ...planned to hit the TM but then decided to stay outside. Nice to run outside  in shorts for a change ...must do it more often 

  • kfc.kfc. ✭✭✭

    Minni - thanks for posting that article - interesting stuff.  Makes sense in the context of someone consistently doing 5+ runs a week and doubles - and thats not me - I have to try hard to consistently get off my ass and do the quality sessions!  I don't think I've got enough years of doing this consistently to safely up the number of runs yet. 

    Although to show willing I did a slow 7M plod into work today - after yesterdays session it definitely did not feel easy even though the pace was slow (so in agreement with the article!).  Legs did loosen up in the last couple of miles.  Had a few site visits today too so clocked up 25M on the bike too.  I've done so much recovery today I'm knackered!

    Daren - hmm, not sure.  Prob about 185, usually race at 170-175.  My mental marker is anything under 160 is something I can sustain for a long time.

    Simon - its really coming back nicely - great run!

    Haha - I think I can see another mantra coming - we've got "Trust in the training", "Don't be shit", and now "Push on - the Blonde Ponytail is chasing you down!"

  • 2old - you're up north - I presumed you ran in a vest and short shorts all year roundimage

    Minni - aren't you targeting a championship start or is it too late for that now?

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