RW Forum Six - Sub 3:30



  • kfc.kfc. ✭✭✭

    Barry - looking good for a pb attempt under race conditions then

    Bro - fab time.  Great to see you back in PB form.

    Col - tough tough day - knowing how I felt doing something similar with less mileage you must have been knackered!

    Pink - sounds like a perfect way to celebrate - sounds like you are in great shape for it

    Carrot - he's uncoachable - I have to influence jedi style.  Something must have got through though cos when we were plodding along the other day he came out with "I'm going to train for 4h, but target 4.15 cos everyone always runs slower than they think..."  

    Daren - heres a theory from my point of view.  I reckon the more you race the better you get at racing, cos you get better at pacing, preparing to race, fuelling, dealing with nerves etc etc etc.  Also, if you happen to have a bad day, you'll have a better idea if its a fair reflection of where you are at; and you wont have long until the next race to test yourself again.  A few years back I was stuck on 1.40 for HM - I did 3 weeks of HMs - first week 1.40.05; second week 1.40.04 image; third week 1.36 image.  I think the breakthrough came cos I'd learnt from the pacing mistakes I'd made in the previous races, plus I felt good on the day.  (ps - thats still my pb...  image


    6.5M back from work today, will do the same tomorrow morning to clear my head before a loooong 4hour meeting with my client...  image

  • you need to run another HM, kfc!!

    Daren, agree with the others. More racing and less monster training sessions. You know the speed is there. Save it for a race. Like kfc book a few in succession so you have backup in case one goes wrong. And just relax (easier said than done) but it's only a race and there's so many others ...

    Freemers: good to see you. Shit about foot image hope nothing serious!!
  • Chick - 4:08 AM - on your way back from a big night out? image

    Daren - I notice that your race reports often include a point where you realise you are not going to hit your target and you slow down in disappointment. So I suspect it is a mental thing and you run better in training because there is no pressure. So you need to either run without a watch and just to feel, or set an easier target and then speed up, or just HTFU and push on through the pain barrierimage

  • haha, I wish, Antimage  In fact I'm the most boring person on the planet these days. No nights out for me, I'm marathon training image   It was my friend's 50th and my goddaughter's 18th at the weekend and all I had was 1 glass of bubbly for the toasts. I'm so going to stay on the wagon!!

    Was getting ready for my 12 miler. Boy, glad that's done. No snow yet, just a very frosty morning and a bit of ice. It was a shit run though. No pace at all image

  • Cheers for the advice guys. I think, like a few of you have said, it is largely a psychological pressure thing. Thinking about it, I rarely enjoy races much and tend to feel anxious about time targets, who is around me (particularly if they are passing me, pulling ahead) etc. during them. One of my most enjoyable races I can remember was my HM PB when my target was sub-1:30 but I knew within a few miles I was in the shape to comfortably achieve it, and I remember feeling much more relaxed than I usually do when I race. Also think that's a good point kfc about race practice - did a similar thing to go sub-19 for 5k a couple of years ago where I raced about 5 of them in a couple of months.

  • Daren- it's an interesting question... do you not push yourself hard enough in races or do you have the ability to push yourself in training harder than most of us... I have no idea what the answer is. I think often when we race we hope that it will be the one when things fall into place and it feels easy- and sometimes it does (like the time you mention). So the next time you want it to feel just like that and if it doesn't it's easy to give up mentally. The truth is (for me anyway) that 99% of the time it's going to hurt... a lot! And it doesn't mean that when the going gets tough all is lost and you can't do well. Just need to be prepared and push through it like Ant says... or set off with a more conservative target to avoid keeping on being disappointed.

    Chick- well done on the 12 miler. Hope the snow stays away.

    KFC- good luck with the marathon client meeting. I agree that it's time for another half mara!

    2Old- very jealous about your skiing, I'm missing out this year. Sounds like you're having fun.

    Free- Welcome back, hope the heel is ok.

    Col- that was a good 13m after the parkrun. I attempted something similar once and it was hell. My legs felt mashed!

    4.5m done at lunch @ 7.40. The legs seem to be in working order. Another few miles planned on the way home tonight.

  • Bro, I don't think it's that I won't push through the pain, but it's probably true that I won't if I don't feel it's worth it (ie. as soon as I feel my target has gone). When I first did a sub-40 10k, I ran three miles with an excruciating stitch, but that was because I knew I was still on for the sub-40. If I know my target's gone, I do tend to think that it doesn't matter what time I run, so I might as well make it less painful, so maybe that's part of it and maybe, you're right, part of the solution would be to set more realistic targets - or no targets at all.

  • good idea - just book a few races without a specific time goal. Run naked - it really helps image

  • Daren- I'm the same. Very guilty of giving up mentally when my A target starts slipping. Often looking back I think I gave up too easily. But then you always seem to forget very quickly how much it hurt at the time!image 

  • kfc.kfc. ✭✭✭

    Chick, Bro - I agree!  Got 2 HMs planned before VLM - first on Feb 9th.

    Daren - sounds like you know what to try.  Worth rethinking whether to do a 'non raced' spring marathon to help you prepare for your autumn one?  


    There was actually a point during my 4 hour meeting today that someone said "its a marathon, not a sprint" (one of my most hated business bullphrases).  I may have said - marathons don't actually take that long... compared with this meeting... image

  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭

    Lol KFC!  

    I've got another 2 HMs too but both are hilly so no pressure! image

  • I seem to have come back to a fire storm at work - so have not been able to get online really...grrrrr....

    Shocking run yesterday, although on the plus side my heel wasn't hurting much. I'm not sure if it's PF - it's a very isolated pain just on one bit of the heel and doesn't extend to the tendon further up the foot. A bit weird yesterday. Actually I could have done with a little heel pain to take my mind off the fact that I was bombing out on my tempo run. All I was doing was 4 @ MP and I couldn't even manage that - just struggling to breath and my legs were like jelly. Hopefully it's just one of those days! I have a rest day today and then supposedly intervals tomorrow but might swap round and do those on Friday, with just an easy run tomorrow instead.

    Hope the snow stays away Chick although that's probably just wishful thinking where you are!

    Looks like Feb 9th is a popular day for a HM - I'm doing one that day too, with Daren (although he'll be way down the road ahead of me image
  • 2Old2Old ✭✭✭
    Another brief visit

    Light bad today so most stopped skiing at lunch time leaving the mountains empty for us. Managed a four mile run after too but bit worried I've hurt my back. Hopefully all will be well tomorrow

    I'm sure we all underestimate our ability to run tthrough pain and discomfort to achieve surprising outcomes
  • Daren - Think you are similar to me in that you can hit/and enjoy running at race pace during training. The plus side of this you will get quicker but don't see great improvement on these times when you race. I struggle on the mental side of things definitely in the last part of a marathon.  Training wise I would carry on the way you are,once a week a long intervals or tempo run inbetween HM and 10K pace to get the body used to running at close to race pace but obviously not in the week before a race.  Mentally agree doing more races should help and maybe a long slow warm up before the start to try and chill and calm the nervous energy.

    Col - Nice long run and good way to break it up.

    2old- Cut back week for you then, did you hurt your back skiing or running?

    Freemers -  Agree that it does n't sound like PF, do you think you were compensating for it causing the  poor run?

    Don't think I'll be much faster at Wokingham than Sundays run, it did feel all out effort.  9 miles for me yesterday including 12 x 2mins hill repeats, and 8 miles slow this morning, legs did n't feel like my own until mile 5. Oh and get me I've got  6 medals on Jantasticimage

  • Freemers: don't worry too much about one bad run. Mine was pretty horrid too yesterday. Today running felt completely normal again. Our body does weird things sometimes. Hope the heel thing doesn't flare up into something serious image

    2old: image  oh no, not another one with a bad back! Be careful out there!! I need you with me in Bostonimage   although you'll be miles ahead image

    Barry: good hillwork - 2 mins fast uphill is a killer sessions! Medals on Jantastic? That must be a new thing. Seems I'm missing out on a lot of fun this year ...

    Hils for me too image  11.6 miles (2nd MLR of the week) with 633 ft of ascent. Slight sprinkling of snow everywhere. Not enough for the Yaktrax but just enough to make things slightly iffy so I was pretty careful on the descents.

  • Freemers - I wouldn't be sure it isn't PF - sounds like it could be to me. I wouldn't panic though, it is treatable if you keep on top of it and give it a good going over with the old golf ball.

    2old - bad back, watch yourself!

    My cold seems to be finally abating, P&D proper starts this week, 8 miles yesterday. And this weekend 13 miles with 8 @ MP! What sort of first long run in the program is that!

  • Barry - I'd love to use the heel as an excuse, but no - I was just sh*t! Chick - yes, we all get them don't we, and I'm sure tomorrow will be fine. Nice run today...I'd quite like to do one MLR a week, let alone two!

    I was listening to MT last week discussing Jantastic - sounds all very complicated this year, with medals and you can play your joker or something.....glad I'm not doing all that image I did note that Minni's sub-3.15 team got a mentionimage
  • Ant: mine started like that as wellimage  Could be worse, though. The 18 week schedules start with an LT sesh right away image

    Freemers: gosh, very complicated indeed. I have problems trying to catch up with the forums, nevermind with a whole new Jantastic website!

  • Ant- oh yeah I remember the shock of the first long run with 8m @ mp! It gets easier after that!image

    Chick- nice hilly MLR.

    Free- sounds like one of those days or maybe a post holiday lurgy? I get that when trying to get back to my normal work/ sleep routine.

    Barry- when is Wokingham?

    Tempo run for me tonight on the way home... (green face).

  • Freemers - is it on the inside of the foot on the edge of the heel bone? Deep massage will help for sure. 

    Ant - which p&d are you following.? The 12 week up to 55 one?

    chick - you are putting in some great longer runs. 

    minni - how's the hip?

    bro - have you recovered ok from your half now?

    10 miles for me yesterday and 7 today. Long one planned for me tomorrow then 3 days off. Trying to fit 2 weeks of training into 11 days has been hard.  I'm following p&d and I'm struggling with the paces. Pretty much bunked off all the mp miles so far image

  • AA - not really, it's on the fatty/squadgy part of the heel, just slightly right of centre. I'm rolling a tennis ball as I sit at my desk....getting some strange looks from colleagues!
  • Mine & Barry's Wokingham race numbers have arrived today - now its real & only 2 weeks to go!
  • AA- P&D paces are always tough to start with. Stick with it! Not sure if I've recovered, tonight's tempo will tell!image

    Pink- yay how exciting!

  • Following 3 days of nil miles (due to frost on track, decorating obligations and other nonsense) I am at last taking my trainers out for a jolly this evening.  Club night, which more or less results in an hour at MP followed by a trip to the pub...

    AA - p&d is a tough thing to follow!


  • Free - How you get it sorted, before it gets worse.

    2old - Try not to get too many injuries before you come back.

    AA/Ant - Those P&d scheds always sound bit too hard core for a lightweight like me.

    Well my sore ankle has turned into a sore Achilles, so plenty of alternate heat and ice, and 4days of rest and stretches. Did 7.1m today, took it easy at first,  9mmp, then slowly faster, ave 8.17, still feels a bit tight. Unsure of length of lsr to do this week. Might do a 7m loop, which I can then repeat depending on how it feels.

  • Bro It's exciting but daunting for me as I have never ran a HM before. It's on 9th Feb & i'm sure I will drive Barry nuts with my nerves the day before, on the way & just before the start of the race.

    Freemers I hope you get your foot sorted

    Simon Hope the Achilles gets better

    AA Enjoy your trip

    I'm going to sound a bit dense but what is P&D?

    Pleased to see one medal for me on Jantastic! It's been hard to fit training in this week as I can't run at lunchtimes due to being on late lunch for the school run & I have to go back to work afterwards. Managed to get out this evening for 3 miles as part of the HM plan.

  • The thing is Daren, we all know what you're capable of in races (clue: faster PBs than you currently have) - I think even you know that you deserve some quicker results.  So much of it is psychological though.  You can churn out some blistering paces in training runs! I find hitting paces in training runs so much harder than in races, I usually end up treating half the races I enter as a training run just so I know I can hit the pace.  Maybe go into the next race and treat it as a training run?  Or just tell yourself that's what you're doing?

    Classic comeback kfc, hope you've recovered.

    Bad runs happen Free, just write it off and look at all of the other decent runs you've managed already.  Hope the tennis ball is doing the trick.  My colleagues have long since given up giving me odd looks...

    How did you get six medals Barry?! I've only got three.

    Two MLRs already Chick and it's only Wednesday! Your slight sprinkling of snow would no doubt have caused utter carnage / mass panic had it been over here.

    Hope the tempo went well Bro. 

    You'll certainly have earned the rest at the end of the 11 days AA.  All still OK with your foot?

    Loops sound like a good idea for your long run Simon. Don't let it get any worse.

    Track Tuesday last night for me - three sets of 300m, 400m, 500m, 600m, with 200m between each rep and 400m between each set.  Shildon runner was there for the second week, our club may have poached him image 6M extreme recovery this morning.  Always a nice feeling when the legs get a bit of life back into them in the last few miles. 

  • Carrot- nice track sessionimage

    Pink- P&D stands for Pfitzinger & Douglas who wrote a book called 'Advance Marathoning' with marathon schedules which many of us use or have used in the past. They're great but quite hard core!

    Simon- take it easy. A 7mile loop sounds sensible.

    My tempo session yesterday went very much to plan. The first 30min @ 7.06- 7.09 (target 7.10), 5min easy and 20min @ 7.10-7.13 (target 7.15). It actually felt very managable- comfortably hard as they said it shouldimage

    6m easy into work this morning. Rest tomorrow, YKW on Saturday and my last moster duration run of 3h10 on Sunday. I'm on two days' rest from now on... I'm expecting withdrawal symptoms.image

  • Nice tempo Bro and sounds like a good track session Carrot. Well done on the hill sessions Chick and Barry.

    Pink, exciting times! Seems like everyone is running a HM on the 9th!

    Simon, take it easy - hope it's just a niggle.

    Freemers, hope the foot sorts itself out in time for Great Bentley. Looks like a fast, flat course, so should be a good one.

    Carrot, I'm just going to try to relax more in the next race - I've got another HM in March so that should take the pressure off to do any particular time.

    Club session last night for me, 4 x mile repeats with 3mins rest. Legs were still feeling a bit heavy after Sunday's mudfest, so decided to ease off a little bit on the first 3, which were all 6:1x pace, before going for it on the last one (5:55). Was much more enjoyable to do the session like that.

  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭

    Daren - why don't you run it naked?  Easier said than done I know.

    I also have a HM on the 9th but its a hilly one so no pressure.

    brol - I can't wait to see what you produce in the marathon. You've done very well to survive the training!

    Bugger Simon and Freemers - hope those niggles stay at just that and don't develop.

    I'm off to the physio at lunch time to see what he has to say about this hip.  This will be my third shortwave treatment but I think I need something else - not sure what though.  Ran 14 miles yesterday and its ok today.


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