RW Forum Six - Sub 3:30

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  • Minni: It is changing shoes that caused my present woes! I knew full well that running in low heeled shoes cuased my calves to tighten up, but had got away with it up to 1/2M and decided to try it in a full marathon with the resulting problems! Have been running a little, 10 miles on Sunday and went to club run last night, all was well until I stepped up about 3 gears and started running at about 6.5 min/miles when it all started to stiffen up so dropped to a trot and went home after 5 miles. Feel fine today but have given it a rest and cycled pre dawn, swam at lunchtime.  Seeing physio on Sunday, this is a new one as he was highly recommended and my previous physio left Dubai.

    good luck with the dog and the race, almost tempting

  • The dog or the race DD?!!
  • Ha!  Get entered then!  There's a limit of 300 and a third of them have been taken already.
  • Liz Yelling is v down to earth and you can follow her on Twitter: girlwhatruns. She was fantastic on my thread last year and provided TONNES of support to Hash behind the scenes of her thread when she had her injury issues. She coached me for free in the intervening bit between London and Chester last year and everything that's been written above is what was covered by her in that period.
    I even e-mailed her after my HM PB in the autumn even though we'd finished months earlier as I put into practice her coaching ideas and she was pleased for me.
    'tis a shame she wasn't re-engaged for this year's SSX along with Steve. I think she really "got" the mentor bit of the SSX and really interacted with the forum users. She even chipped into the gel debate on JBFAR's sub 3 thread at one point even though she wasn't mentoring on it.
  • Yeah, Liz Yelling was very down to earth + had such good advice. I was gutted when i went to work the next day + people were like Liz who?!

    6.5 miles here tonight, mixing it up still between p+d and runner's world, did warm up + down with 6x 800m intervals. Definately better tho doing the long run on Saturday, legs weren't as mashed tonight image
  • here here MM.
  • Kiwi, if you do a long run on a Sunday, do you run on Monday? You need a slow paced run the day after to de-mash your legs. I always run 6-8 Sat slow, long on Sunday, 9 slow on Monday, session on Tuesday. Also, if your legs are mashed the long run is probably too fast. Wednesday my legs are mashed aft the session. Not Monday.

    I also did 6 x 800m tonight image
  • 2 sessions to report today. 

    Last night: plan was 7 miles genral aerobic including 6 x 100m strides.  We had a coach at the club last night and he had planned 4 x 1 mile @ 10k pace with 2 minute recovery.  I had a 12 mile to do this morning so didn't want to push it.  I ended up with 7 miles @ 8.51 pace and used the mile reps to do my 100m strides.  All sounds ok?  No not really.  I found the whole session hard and finished feeling sick with stomach cramps again, and needing to make a dash to the loo!  I'd taken care to make sure I ate well yesterday - cereal for breakfast, baked potato with tuna for lunch, a cheese sandwich an hour before the session and I was well hydrated.  I felt much better a couple of hours later.

     This morning - Plan was 12 miles mid/long run at 8.20 pace.  I started feeling a bit nervous after last night and forgot to take water!!  I literally ran 6 miles out and 6 back.  Average 8.25, and managed the second half quicker than the first (I'm constantly aware of the negative split etc).  The main problem this morning was the wind - The pace up one particular hill was 30 seconds quicker going up than when I'd run down it with a head wind!   Splits - 8.51; 8.21; 8.37; 8.26; 8.41 (this was the downhill!); 8.37; 8.12; 7.59; 8.16; 8.20; 8.09; 8.24.  I felt a bit sick when I finished but once I'd had a drink and something to eat I felt fine.

    I listened to 'Marathon Talk' with a interview with Liz McColgan - what a runner!  On marathon training she said she ran all her LSRs at 5.XX pace.....!

  • Minni well done for getting out there and hitting your targets today, what do you think was the real problem last night?

    I suspect that you shy away from the thought of intervals, IMO you are going to have to start on occasion doing back to back hard sessions, to me a 4 x 1 Mile at 10K pace off 2 mins followed by the next day by 12 at MP + 20 secs isn't a particularly hard couple of sessions. You are going to have to start putting in those intervals at some point.

    My marathon times didn't improve until I started doing regular speed work, its simply essential to  teach you to feel the pace, i can't go on about it enough you have to be able to run 8 min/miles comfortably by feel.

    AA: Today was the first day I felt that I had just about recovered from Dubai, a) I ran 13K without my calves tightening b) I put in 6 x 800 off 2 min recoveries in the middle they were all in the 3 to 3-05 bracket or sub 4 min/K pace and that tells me I'm at about 42 min 10K fitness.

    MM: Liz Yelling is a top lady, there are some of her ex club mates here in Dubai they all speak very higly of her.

  • Mr Spoons - I always used to do a slow recovery run on a Monday after a long Sunday run, so far this year I have followed the schedule and rested.  Usually I would do an easy 5 miles on the Saturday, having decided to do long runs on a Saturday now, I will do the 5 miles as a recovery on Sunday instead.  Hopefully, then the legs will be fresher by Tuesday.

    Minni, I understand your difficulties with intervals/speed, that's why I hate 10kms so much, I'm always thinking, why am I running this?!  I haven't been to my club for a while due to work, but intend to head along next week, it's definately easier to push yourself harder when running with others.

    D.D - interesting what you say about doing back to back hard sessions, I've always worried about the possibility of injury with this?  Tonight's schedule for me is the medium long run - can I just check what pace I should be aiming for with medium long runs? I'd read in P&D that medium long runs should be run at a similar pace to long runs.  Also I plan to do my 10 miles LT tomorrow night instead of Friday as this fits in better for me - I had been concerned this may be too much back to back? 

    Any advice much appreciated, this is the first year that I have mixed up my marathon training a bit between 2 schedules (Runner's world and P&D), am just worried about over doing it or not running at the correct pace to get the best out of a session!

     Time to hit the pavement   image

  • Last night was a recovery with 10 x 100 strides and I wanted to stick to the schedule;  I would have struggled with the hilly mile reps anyway because of how I was feeling.  I've been like this before when marathon training: dodgy tummy, feeling sick etc and it must be down to diet.  I eat healthily and don't eat much crap anyway, but I think I need to increase the calories, or rather carbs, when I'm doing this sort of training.  I've changed from a sandwich to baked potato for lunch etc.  The problem is the more training I do the less I want to eat carbs and sometimes even the thought of bread, potato or pasta makes me feel sick. Last night all I could feel was the potato that I'd had about 1pm sitting in my stomach. 

    Kiwi - My pace for medium long run is 8.20, long run 8.50.

    Like kiwi, I'm concerned that doing 2 hard back to back sessions will bring on injury.  The P & D book talks about always following a hard day with an easier one.  I know runners who are doing high mileage will do session after session but what kind of back to back sessions are good for us who are running about 50 miles per week?

  • Kiwi - sounds like a good plan. A recovery run will aid recovery quicker than a rest day.
  • Minni / Kiwi: Medium long runs should probably be at about the same pace as your long runs. Personally I don't see a problem with a LT run (hopefully you should be doing the 5 miles of LT at around 1/2M pace) being followed by a medium long run. In my case this would mean I had done 5 miles at somewhere close to 7 min/mile pace followed the next day by 12 or so at 8-30 min/mile. What that shows is that your long run pace is a lot slower than 1/2M pace and therefore a lot less stressful. recovery runs are so slow as to be actually quite dificult to slow down that much.

    I would be concerned if you were doing interval sessions on sucessive days, but a tempo run followed or proceeded by intervals should be OK.  50 mile weeks is not exactly low mileage is not high but its more than enough for marathon running. P & D does indeed have a easy day / hard day approach and in general that is a sensible approach, however the point I'm trying to make is a) schedules are not cast in stone b) P & D actually doesn't have much in the way of intervals in the schedules and this IMO is their one weakness. c) So if you accept that intervals are needed at some point you have to make room for them and this will mean back to back hardish days.  Injury is always lurking and we are all one stride from injury, but with sensible warm ups Injuries can be minimised. I wouldn't dream of doing intervals without at least a 2 mile warm up slow accelerating throughout.

    Kiwi: you will learn more about racing and pacing doing 10K's than anywhere else, its the perfect mix of speed and endurance. Just remember that the pain in a 10K only lasts for about 2K or 8 minutes or so, in a marathon it can be 5 miles or 45 minutes! Race 10Ks well and they will teach you pacing, negative splits and tactics, plus its all over in 40 mins, further advantage is you don't need much recovery and can race them weekly if you want.

  • Right!  I have been on the treadmill and done some of those blooming 800m reps!  My schedule has them starting in two weeks time at 5 x 800. So, with this in mind I did 3, then I can do 4 next week and 5 the next.  The session was 2.5k warm up followed by 3 x 800m @ 6.54 m/m pace the a cool down.  Seriously, I would struggle to run them any faster on the treadmill but would hope to be a bit faster outdoors. 

    Tomorrow is 10 miles with 6 @ LT.  Its blowing a hooley out there and we had a touch of snow this morning - I hope its calmer tomorrow. 

  • Well done on getting stuck into the intervals Minni!

     Just been catching up after a patch of being horrendously busy with work, which unfortunately has also been affecting the amount of running I can do. I think I'm going to have to bite the bullet and start running home, although I don't enjoy running with a backpack on at all. Minni, I hope it's okay to ask a question on your thread but I was wondering if there's any sessions I should avoid if I'm running with a backpack, e.g. is it okay for a medium long run but not good for intervals?

     On the diet thing it's worth experimenting a bit, too much fibre can cause problems or too much dairy for some people. Haven't really sussed it myself though other than knowing I need to leave at least 2 hours after a meal before running.

  • Minni: well done for doing intervals, that pace (which equates to 4-16 min/K's cos I think in K's) is quite quick for starters, I would try nearer 4-30 min/K pace 7-12 min/miles. How much recovery did you allow? They will definitely be easier outdoors, i really struggle to run reps on a treadmill plus you are never sure how accurate the pace is. Did you have the tready on a incline?

    Becs: i Know people who run all their runs with a backpack, I have no idea why! Personally i wouldn't run intervals with a backpack why make life hard for yourself? A well fitting rucksack is almost unnoticeable, does yours have a waist band and a strap across the chest to stop it moving around?

    I raced 10K and unsurprisingly got beaten by Faris Al Sultan the 2005 Ironman world champion, 9th in 2010! Still got a sneaky PB though 41-24.

  • BecsA what Dave said re backpacks. Chest and waist strap essential to keep it still and I wouldn't do intervals.  I've run a lot with a backpack off road and there's something almost comforting about it!  It would be great for you to run home from work if things are hectic and at lease you know you're getting it in.  It's also a great stress buster.

    Fibre - I hadn't thought of that but will.  Thinking about it I do have quite a high fibre diet and that could just the it! 

    DD Well done on the PB!  41.24 - very impressive and if you're going to get beaten then best to get beaten by a world champion!  Did you ask him for any tips afterwards image.

    Intervals - I allowed a 2 minute recovery and I had a 2 percent incline.  I chose 13.9kph (6.54 m/p) because I was trying to get them a tad under the 7 m/m.  Based on the Yasso theory this would still be too slow!  The first  400 of each rep felt fine but the second 400 felt hard and I was overheating big time.  Next week I'll slow it down a bit for the 4 and see if that's better....  although should it not feel really hard? 

  • Afternoon peeps - can you believe that it took me until now to find this thead image. Where have I been?

    Hello to a few familiar faces: DD, Spoons, and of course Minni.

    Minni, I hope you can get to the bottom of the sickness issue. Well done on the intervals. I think I need to give my schedule a good going over to see if I can make room for some. I want to be as fast as DDimage.

    DD, well done on your 10k PB image

    Becs: I do my twice-weekly medium long runs as a commute into work with the backpack. If you find one that's right for you, you won't even notice it's there. I've even done some LT runs with mine - it's a godsend and it means I can fit in a lot of sessions where I'd otherwise struggle to find the time.

    Minni, how did your LT run go? I had a real struggle today. Just one of those abysmal runs where you know from the first 3 steps that it's going to be rubbish. Didn't help that we had gale force winds and torrential rain image. It felt like going backwards at times. Hope yours went better!

    Have a great weekend, all!
  • Well done DD

    Hi Chickadeeeee
  • hey Chickadeee, welcome to the dark side!  We all want to be as fast as DD.....

     LT run was, er, interesting to say the least.  We also have gale force winds and I'd chosen* an out and back route up a valley.  Needless to say the wind was head on for half of it.  So, 2.25m warm up then 6 miles: 8.02; 9.34; 10.35; 7.18; 6.26; 6.26;  followed by 2.85 warm down.  11 in total.   Can you guess which half was into the wind and which had the wind behind?!!!!image

     * I hadn't actually chosen the route - my man Friday did.  He has kinda taken over the LT sessions and plans them for me and runs them with me.  Perfect!

  • Edit to delete double post.
  • Hi all,

    spin session here tonight.  Well done DD on your 10km race, oh to be able to run that fast!

    Managed 7 miles last night with 5 at LT, a bit shy of 7:30m/m though, still working on that pace.

    20 miles planned for tomorrow am, recovery run Sunday.  Hoping those winds die down tonight!

    Good luck for all your long runs    image

  • Minni.....I love those splits on the run............the wind is making such a differnce isn't it.......I only have a park run tomorrow so i hope the wind if it hasn't died down will be in my face for the first half...............image
  • Just read the exchange on the Asics 3h30 thread asking where Kryptonite has got to. At least Steve has been good enough to keep posting and asking for regular input from other posters. Imagine if the coach had been Bud? How quiet would the thread be then? image
  • I was thinking the same MMimage
  • Good point MM!

     I am not blowing my own trumpet in any way but..... I have a busy life.  I have two kids who are at the age that they need taken places to enable them to partake in their own activities.  I run my own business (2 in fact) as does my husband (2 also).  I work long hours and always make sure I fulfill my childrens needs before I think about running.  However, I make sure I fit the running in. Although running my own business means I work long hours I can also be slightly flexible.  For example, I changed my full day off this week (and next) in favour of 2 half days so that I can get 2 of my key runs in.    I know seren nos also has a full on life (I read that profile thingy) and she achieves loads.  And, we are both active on our forums.  

    Being chosen as a Forum six has, so far, been great for me.  I feel obliged to tick the sessions off and report back - good or bad.  DD has been banging on about these intervals and hey, what do you know, its starting to sink in, and I did them last night.  

    I think I have gone slightly OCD but what the hell - if it gets the job done! 

    Sometime I have to sneak on here to report (family saying I'm obsessed...!) and I always read the sub 3.15 thread and others.  Marathon training can be quite lonely but these forums make you feel like your part of something bigger.  

    Now back to the wine.... .

  • DD congrats on the PB.

    Thanks all for the advice on running with backpacks. I've actually not tried running with the backpack I've got now (which only has a waist strap as at the time I couldn't find one with both, but fits quite well) but disliked the old one a lot as it just felt heavy plus the zip used to come undone and I'd start dropping my clothes down the street image. I think it's going to be the way forward though in being able to fit more running in so will try the one I've got and if it doesn't work shop around for another one.

    I think we're due the gale force winds here tomorrow.

  • Great post Minni - you're my hero!

    Becs - I do all my long runs with a backpack. An Inov8 with hydration bladder. I would never wear it for intervals though! It's very comfortable and means I can carry all the rubbish I like to carry around with me.
  • Minni: Nice LT run. hey if you get a down wind marathon your on for sub 3 !  Don't see how you think 6-54 mins miles doesn't  fit the yasso theory. Yasso says run intervals of 800 metres in your marathon time i.e 3-30 in minutes and seconds .... So a 3 minute 30 second 800 metres =  4 mins 22 seconds Km or a  7 minute 03 second mile, he then goes on to say you should have a 3 minute 30 second jogged recovery.

    Conventional wisdom is 1% incline to counteract the foot being drawn back by the belt. The real trouble with tready's is that the speed can be way out either way. I reckon the one I use in the gym is quicker than  it says and my own is slower than it says and that is based on how paces feel on the track.

    Chick: Nice to see you here

    Becs: You get used to backpacks quick enough as long as they don't bounce around, if you use one wit a hydration bladder suck out the air before you run and then the water doesn't slosh around. I have run 150K ultras with a pack and the sloshing was the most annoying bit!

    Minni: do you dare stop posting!

    Thanks for the well dones, i'm just back from camping in the desert, very windy and quite cold last night, have just showered the whole family and now we have a beach in the bath

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