RW Forum Six - Sub 3:30

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  • KFC - that's a lot of HMs and not a lot of long runs. (I don't consider 13 to be a long run in marathon training). Is it worth dropping one or doing a 5m warm up and a 3m warm down?
  • My long runs (if I am able to run again) look like:

    20 - 7 miles at MP
    20
    20 - 9 miles at MP
    26.2 - Belvoir Challenge - slow
    13.1 - Norwich HM - PB
    20
    20 - 9 miles at MP
    12 - 6 miles at MP
    8 - 4 miles at MP
    VLM
  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭
    Kfc - if you want to try to avoid that 20 mile fade then you'd benefit from more longer runs. Also, jumping from 13 to 17 is quite a big jump. Why dont you make the 17 a 15, then the next week run the 6 with your friends but run the rest on your own (I often do this). Do you have to do the three half marathons after that? One would be enough and you'd benefit more from doing long runs instead. Alternatively, choose 2 to extend to long runs, and don't race them. You could use them to do some marathon pace? Finally, the Worthing 20 - I wouldn't race this but use it to get the 20 miles done. It would be much better doing 20 steady mikes that weekend than 15 faster then bail out.
    What do you think DD? (although he is a fan of racing....)
    I've had to work hard at getting used to running more on my own this year and it has helped my training. Although I wasn't keen to begin with I realised that to get the pacing right it needed to be done. Sometimes I listen to music, or a podcast, sometimes nothing. Are you a member of a club? What about your biking buddy cycling with you whine you run the long ones?
  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭
    Cross post Mr Spoons ... Are you feeling better?
  • Minni - nope
  • kfc I have to echo what Minni & spoons are saying too many 1/2M and not enough 20+ miles. Like the others I would either drop 2 of them or add miles on before or after (I always prefer before as its hard to motivate your self when you have just crossed a finish line). Only one 20 miler simply isn't enough, I never do less than three prefer 5 and like two to be around the 23 - 24 mile mark. Running on your own is never easy and I try to avoid long runs on my own but if there is no choice (as there wasn't over xmas) then I do it, you have to develop that sort of mental toughness or your marathon ain't going to happen.

    IM target, assuming I don't go into melt down or have serious mechanical difficulties then 12 hours on a good day 13 on a bad day, somehow expect all being well that it will be between the two, finishing will do to be honest.

    I got in a good days training yesterday, 1 hours swim then 3 laps of the park with my club for a 8 mile tempo run ( well as most of it was run fairly close to 10K pace more like a race!). I know my racing schedule looks heavy but the truth is I don't actually push that hard in  most of them its more a way of getting in a hard workout.

    Spoons: Hope you soon feel better.

  • Sppons - ditto - hope you feel better soon.

    I'm tired today so not running. image Bad night's sleep doesn't help and 6 Sport Massages to do today also will take its toll.

  • AA - I would normally do around 10 over 18 milers with the magical 5 at over 20. I think it works for me. I did it last year and for once I ran 2 even splits at VLM 2010. Haven't managed a negative split yet ... but there is hope.

    Well done on getting those 800s out of the way on tired legs. Fingers crossed it really only is DOMS. Get in those zzzzzs.

     kfc - the others have said it - your schedule would really need some longer stuff in there. I am quite a fan of incorporating a half into a longer run (with warm up and cool down, like Spoons suggested) and use the half to practise MP (like Minni suggested). I find it very hard in training on my own to hit that pace but in a race environment it comes quite naturally.  

    Woke up with a sore throat this morning image. I think I am downing enough Echinacea to keep a cold from developing but I guess running intervals tonight is probably not a good idea. Well, there's always core stability ... 
  • I can't even do core stability or swimming at the minute Chick as it's my core that's injured.

    AA - I don't know how you manage to do 6 sports massages in a day. When Mrs Spoons asks for a shoulder massage my thumbs ache after 2 minutes!
  • Hopefully we haven't scared KFC off.....
  • Mr S - elbows, forarms and knuckles!! image

    Chick - bloody amazing - your endurance must be incredible

  • Spoons + Chick - hope you're both feeling better soon!

    Chick - well done on your 2 x 22 milers already. The coach at our club insists on having 5 long runs equating to 100 miles under your belt before a marathon, so true. I've added a 22 mile run in to the scedule the last couple years, found it to be a good confidence boost. I think what p&d lack in the length of their long runs they try to make up with their long run marathon pace miles?

    8 x 800m planned for tonight, on tarmac, no access to a track. Hoping the legs will be a bit fresher following recovery run Sunday + rest ystrday.
  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭
    I'm sure KFC is out getting a 20 miles in! What do you think kfc, can you get more long runs in?

    Spoons - have you seen the physio or doc?

    I've often fitted a 22 mile into the training and I think it does help psychologically but it's not essential. I suppose it depends on how confident you are with the full 26 miles. I will probably push one of my 20s up to at least 21.

    I have 3 x 20 in my schedule (1 done last weekend). I also have:
    1x 16 with 12 at marathon pace ( this week)
    1x 18 with 14 at marathon pace (4 weeks time)

    DD .. What is your opinion? Are these marathon paced runs better than knocking out 20s?

    AA .. I hope you get sports massages on yourself too?
  • Minni - no. I am on the mend. I'm just being ultra cautious. I could run, but I would rather have a week off now than have this drag on for a month due to continued training. I am 99% sure it's just a strained muscle and the cure is rest.
  • kfc.kfc. ✭✭✭

    Not scared off, but getting the message LOUD and CLEAR!  Feeling inspired by all the advice, so am going to stop kidding myself that a 10 miler is a long run, and that just because I’m running longer this time than I’ve ever managed before, that doesn’t mean I’ve cracked it, just that I’m now able to do some long runs worthy of the name with less risk of crocking myself.

     

    So here’s what I’m gonna do:

    1)      Keep in the halfs, but get in an extra 4 miles either before or after.  I never aimed for these to be racing runs, they are there to force me to run that distance.  I do them at a mixture of marathon and half marathon pace – starting and holding 8min miles, then speeding up to 7:30s in the last few miles.

    2)      Do the full 20M at Worthing

    3)      Try and add a midweek 8M when I can.  First attempt tomorrow morning - wish me luck!

     

    Oh, and I do enjoy running on my own - the issue is all to do with previously only seeing my OH at weekends – means the decision to cycle together rather than run on my own was only ever going to go one way (and him cycling while I run just makes him fat!).  We are now in the same place during the week, which makes it much much easier to disappear and run for a few hours at the weekend.

     

    DD - Target looks good for IM– given the training you are putting in close to 12 looks well in sight.

    Mr S - healing thoughts from here - try and enjoy the rest week, am sure you'll come back stronger for it.

  • Mr S glad you're on the mend.image And I think your attitude is right, so glad you've moved from angry to philosophical. image

    On longest runs, I'm thinking of doing my longest to last 3.30 hours with a slower pace than usual, which I reckon will equate to about 22 miles. I did this last year as my final run and recovery was fine. 

  • Kfc - good luck for your 8 miles tmrw am. You'll soon get used to the longer run.

    Mr Spoons, thank you for the sound advice re the recovery run following long run, legs were a lot fresher for tonight's intervals image
  • Good stuff Kiwi

    That's better KFC

    Thanks for your thoughts folks image
  • Mr Spoons and Chickadee hope you're both recovered soon.

    KFC - How quick are you doing most of your long runs? Sorry if you'e said before and I've missed it earlier on the thread but I'm wondering because the difference between being able to do runs of the length you're currently doing and the really long ones is slowing it right down.

    Went to the running shop near work at lunchtime and have a new running backpack image. Tried running with it on the way home and it was great - did 6.4 miles and got home about an hour earlier than usual if I'd done that length run at work thanks to saving the comute. It stayed pretty still and didn't seem to affect the run much apart from my legs feeling heavy and a bit tired, but then that could well partly be from the runs I did at the weekend.

    Just wish I'd tried it sooner as I really struggled with trying to fit the mileage in doing P&D in the autumn as I was getting home so late after the longer midweek runs.

    Thanks to everyone for convincing me to try it.

  • Minni wrote (see)
    I'm sure KFC is out getting a 20 miles in! What do you think kfc, can you get more long runs in? Spoons - have you seen the physio or doc? I've often fitted a 22 mile into the training and I think it does help psychologically but it's not essential. I suppose it depends on how confident you are with the full 26 miles. I will probably push one of my 20s up to at least 21. I have 3 x 20 in my schedule (1 done last weekend). I also have: 1x 16 with 12 at marathon pace ( this week) 1x 18 with 14 at marathon pace (4 weeks time) DD .. What is your opinion? Are these marathon paced runs better than knocking out 20s? AA .. I hope you get sports massages on yourself too?


    Minni: I think that those runs with long sections at MP are more important than getting in another 20 miler. I have banged on about it before but will repeat myself at the risk of becoming boring.... You have to be able to run marathon pace comfortably and by feel alone. If you don't run some sections of your long runs at MP your not going to do it on the day.

    kfc: You have a plan.

    Mr Spoons: Take it easy until you feel right, your being very sensible something I find very hard to do.

    Becs: Glad that you found a rucksack that suits.

  • kfc.kfc. ✭✭✭

    Just over 7 miles in the bag before work today - awesome. 

    Becs - hope you get on well with the commute runs and the rucksack - its the only way I manage to run during the week.  Try and take as little stuff as possible (keep a few days worth of clothes at work if you can), and adjust every time you put it on so it fits nice and snug however full it is.

  • kfc you don't actually drink Pocari Sweat, do you?
  • kfc.kfc. ✭✭✭
    If I could find a way to get it in the UK, I would!  (cos I like the name, rather than for any pseudo health benefits, let me stress)
  • But it tastes how its spelt! Some of my club mates love it, I think its disgusting
  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭

    kfc - what a result!  Well done on getting your run in today and for sorting out the long runs.  You wont regret it!  Its really hard sometimes trying to fit running around life..... or is it, life around running....? 

    BecsA - another great result with the backpack and a brilliant run home.  It looks like that's going to be a good solution to getting more miles in. 

    Spoons - Glad to hear things are a bit better - how sensible taking a week off.  

    Wobbled - 3.30 run sounds good. 

    Kiwi - how were the 800s?

    DD thanks for info on long runs with MP.  You don't believe in making this easy do you...image

    My planned run last night was 6 miles recovery but it was club night.  We did a mile warm up followed by hills reps, which entailed 5 x 30 second  intervals on 5 different hills.  I gave it my all!  Did have a touch of nausea but not as bad as last week or the week before and ran through it.  With a mile warm down afterwards the session ended up being 7 miles.

    Today should have been 14 mid run but I've only managed 8.5 off road, since I have to go the the smoke with my daughter for an orthodontist appointment.  

    I won't get out tomorrow unless its 3 or 4 with the dog before work, and I'm moving my 16 with 12 at MP to Friday.  I had planned to do 6 miles on Sunday with some 800m reps but wondering if I should do today's 14 instead.

    I asked Ruth the dietitian over on Krypto's thread about the dodgy tummy issue and she gave a great reply.  I don't have time to digest (pardon the pun) it at the moment but will get back to it later. 

  • Minni: Easy? Easy? Whats Easy about running marathons image. Me I would stick with the  6 on Sunday and include some intervals, I really don't think that a extra 8 miles run at 20 seconds above MP will make much difference in the greater scheme of things. BUT some speedwork might just be effective in getting you comfortable with speed!!

  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭
    Dubai Dave wrote (see)

    . BUT some speedwork might just be effective in getting you comfortable with speed!!

    It'll take more than that! image
  • Hi All - I've popped over from Minni's other thread! Been plugging through the 12 week P&D schedule and 3 weeks down it seems to be going fine. I did my 2nd MP section in the long run on saturday (10 miles in a 16 mile run) and it went swimmingly.

    I had to take 6 weeks off hard running before the starting the schedule and not doing faster running really seemed to knock my speed, but its looking like it is coming back now, so I hope I will be peaking in London. It's interesting that just a little bit of hard running can make such as difference. Makes me think of the central governor theory that noakes was talking about on the Marathon Talk podcast.

    Cheers, Ant
  • For some reason the system kept stopping my posting a link to the podcast: http://www.marathontalk.com/archive/2010/12/1/episode-47-prof-tim-noakes.html

    seems to be working now. very bizarre
  • Minni - hard fitting "life" in around all this training hey!! I often have to bail out and do short or fast instead.

    I did 4.5 hilly miles today (4 steep long hills)  managed to keep them all to sub 8s, but it hurt a lot and has really made me rethink my target for Wokingham Half now image

    Had my treadmill serviced today - with a new bed and belt and its all lovely and clean... can't wait to get back on it image

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