RW Forum Six - Sub 3:30



  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭
    Hi Ant and welcome over! I started the other thread a few months ago and then got the chance to be mentored on here by Dubai Dave. I'm also following the P&D but the 18 week plan and I'm about 8 weeks in now. I have my first MP run this weekend. Well done on yours! I've started listening to marathon talk and really like it. I find it more relaxing than music and it's motivating at the same time. Does your 12 weeks go up to 55 miles per week?

    AA - I bet you need that belt changed quite often considerating the miles you do on it!
  • @Minni - yep it goes up to 55 miles as well. They describe it essentially the same program with each of the mesocycles slightly truncated. I've actually extended the program to 13 weeks to ensure that I do all of the key sessions. So any sessions that I miss I will put in my 'spare' week. I did this really to ensure that I could do the long run due in the week that I have my target warm-up half marathon race in march and still have a taper.

    Cheers, ant
  • Kfc - well done on your 7 miles in the bag before work.

    AA - sounds like a hard workout on the hills

    Minni - it was so much 'easier' ( not that i would ever actually use easy + intervals in the same sentence!) doing the 800s after a saturday long run, sunday recovery + rest Monday. Still not quite hitting the 7m/m, nearer to 7.10/7.15, but it still felt like a good hard workout.

    R.w says 10 miles for tonight, P&D say 14, going to aim for 10, sometimes it is hard fitying everything in, i'm a secondary teacher + have a formal observation tmrw, so will be busy planning after tonight's run.
  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭

    Kiwi -  good luck with your observation tomorrow.  Well done with the 800s.  I'm doing my long run on Friday, rest/recovery on Saturday then going to do some on Sunday.  Did you measure them on a garmin?  And, did you do the 8?

    Ant, I've lent my book to someone for the week but I imagine our schedules are at more or less the same place.  I'm on week 10.

    After asking Ruth Mc Kean  about the nausea/iffy tummy thing associated with faster running this was her reply...

    RUTH MCKEAN wrote (see)
    Hi The question about why do we get stomach problems has been well answered. Up to about 70% of your VO2 max your stomach empting is not really affected but after this intensity everything slows down so food will take longer to leave.The blood flow to the stomach and whole GI tract will be reduced as blood needs to be transported to muscle and skin to help with regulating your temperature and taking oxygen. This reduction in blood flow will be made worst by dehydration.  In contrast hard exercise speeds up transit time of faecal contents in the bowel!  Here are some tips which would be first line dietary interventions to help with this problem.  Solid food should be avoided 3 hrs prior to exercise.   If it is stomach pain/ discomfort or nausea:
    1.      Avoid fruit juice, milk & carbonated drinks.

    2.      Sip do not gulp water or sports drink (take in air which will make things worst, you should practise drinking whilst running on long runs).

    3.      Avoid foods know to irritate: caffeine, chocolate, peppermint, fatty & spicy foods
    4.      Before exercise eat a snack that empties from stomach quickly– small low fat snack/low fibre snack (you should experiment with reducing fibre in diet 1-2 days before race day (you won’t often hear a Dietitian say that!!) cut out all wholegrain products and use white bread, pasta etc &  reduce fruit & veg If you have urge to defecate or Loose bowels

     5. As above but also may benefit from routine of emptying bowels before running and/or anti diarrhoea meds (but need to speak to your doctor if you can’t solve it by dietary intervention first).

    Hope this is helpful!

     Point 2 is interesting - I drink quite a bit of milk and when I'm marathon training I crave it.  On Tuesday I had two or three glasses a couple of hours before I ran.   I'll experiment to see if this is what is causing the nausea.  

    Also interesting about reducing fibre in the couple of days leading up to a race.  

  • Oh, interesting about avoiding solid food 3 hours before a run - I was so hungry when I got home from work I had 2 slices of toast, 1 banana and a handful of jellibabies before going running an hour later, but it was only a slow run, will bear that in mind before the next fast workout though.

    Thanks for the well wishes Minni.  I have now figured out how to set up the intervals on my garmin (only took 3 years to discover that setting, doh!), yes I did do 8 x 800m, whole run came out at 7.6 miles including a warm up and warm down, definately a hard work out, still disappointed that I'm not hitting 7m/m, but considering I have previousy shyed away from speed work, I hope I am slowly improving!

    Have decided to follow the runner's world schedule and try a steady 7 miles tomorrow night, to be ran at marathon pace.

    Right, back to work for me, really must stop procrastinating on the internet! 

  • Morning one and all.

    Nutrition; Without doubt it helps to have a plan, preferably one that you have tried and tested during your training, dont go and try a new Gel on the day or change your tried and trusted breakfast. IMO nutrition / gels are not terribly important during a marathon, I have run with them, without them, with sports drink, without sports drink, many combinations ( hey at Beachy Head they give you soup and cups of tea!) and I don't really believe that any regime was better than another. Different story in Ultras where you really do need to get it right, there are things I can stomach up to 50 miles which I cant thereafter, only experience can help you there, Gels are great on a bike but I have never suddenly improved on a run cos I have taken a Gel.  I have club mate who swears by donuts!!.

    I don't follow much of the advice given! I eat toast before any morning run, definately drink caffeine and will quite happily chug Mountain Dew or Coke mid run! But then I have never had stomach problems when running.  I do however believe that you need to eat protien within 1 hour of exercise, as per my reading it aids recovery and I would say based on my experience that is right.

    I had a hard interval session last night, 6 x 1K off 2 mins followed by 4 x 200M off 1 minute, they went  4.04/3.43/3.58/3.47/3.58/3.44 & 42/42/45/38.  Not hard to tell which 1K reps were run into the wind and vice versa. I didn't find that a easy session, but i was tired having swum at lunchtime.

  • This is my 14th marathon and I have tried so many things from lucozade (def no no for my gut!), jelly babies, gels and have finally settled on Nutra grain Elevenses! 

    Minni - I crave milk massively too - but only once I finished. I find 1 pint of milk (at least!) with eggs on toast as perfect recovery.

    4.5 miles slow in the woods with the dogs for me today in prep for Sunday's Half. Weather is heavy rain and strong winds...nice! Legs are so heavy too.

    DD - almost clicked on entereing the Reading Triathlon - just slowly talking myself into it! Olympic distance. Was on for the first time last year and the cycle route comes right up through my village. Its in September. Never done one before image

  • AA: What are you waiting for, join the dark side. There are huge advantages in that your body doesn't get nearly so beaten up, switch sports and viola you have active recovery. Down side once a runner always a runner and your not going to reach full runing potential on Tri training. Its fun though (well apart from spending hours staring at the bottom of a swimming pool) .
  • Oops - busy busy on here. It gets harder and harder to keep up to date!

    AA: thanks for the vote of confidence re. my endurance. Unfortunately I am finding it difficult to translate this into decent marathon times as I never seem to be able to combine it with speed image. Well done on the hills and good luck for Sunday's half. You are working so hard, you may well surprise yourself!

    kiwi: wow 8X800s, well done!

    DD: great workout. Thanks for the advice re. MP miles. I'm a bit of an obsessive mileage collector, so I may well cut some quantity and introduce more quality. I was sorely tempted to do 22 again this Sunday WITH 12 at MP. Go on, shoot me right here!

    Hi to Ant!

    Minni: hope you can get those stomach issues sorted. I think milk (the lactose in it) does affect many people, so this may very well be the root of the problem for you. Have you tried recovery drinks (like SIS Rego?) It's quite milky albeit a bit chemical in taste, but it's lactose free. Or you could try soya and rice milk products. Some have a bit of a weird taste, so worth experimenting. Soya chocolate milk is nice.

    First tentative attempt at speedwork last night, just to break in my new racing shoes - 3x800s. It wasn't a planned session so very surprised to get 3:11, 3:09 and 3:12 (400m recoveries). A cold seems to make me fast(ish). Don't think I could have done 8 of those though!
  • Chick: I'm not going to shoot you for suggesting 22 with 12 at MP, its a workout I have done myself in the past. Mind you I didn't use those tactics before Dubai this year and a PB, would perhaps suggest that 22 with 8 at MP might be a bit less stressful! You will be amazed how quickly you can build up those 800's, I start each September at the beginning of my race season with 4 x 800 and am always up to 10 x 800 by mid November, the more you do them the easier they get and your times are pretty well what I do them in.
  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭

    Work at 8 am, nipped off early to watch Minni Jn run cross country, collected 4 children (2 of mine and 2 of a friend who are staying with me till Monday), home now to eat lasagne made at 6am, before an hours journey to see Matthew Bourne's Cinderella with my daughter and friend.  Managed a quick run this morning and just skimmed through the threads to see what's been happening.....  another lively debate over on the 'other' thread.

    Over and out from a busy person who is also marathon training image

  • joddlyjoddly ✭✭✭
    Erm, yes I'm afraid I picked a fight on the "other" thread - got fed up with reading yet more disparaging comments.

    Re gut issues (again), sometimes the only answer is careful route planning...

    Everyone on here seems to be getting some good training in, and Minni you look very much on-target. Hope you all enjoy Cinders!
  • DD - gonna sign up tonight - spent all day thinking that I CAN do it!! Nice Autumn goal!

    Chick - thanks, gonna have a couple of light training days now ready for the wind and rain on Sunday!

    Kiwi - loads of time yet for the speed to improve!

    Joddly - you were brave!! Looks a scary thread that one!! Must admit though, don't even think Alison knew what she'd signed up for by the looks of it and she is getting it from a few which must put more pressure on her.

    Minni is doing so well, and we are all busy without exception and the great thing is we are all training for the same-ish goal - all with busy lives and jobs and kids etc image

  • kfc.kfc. ✭✭✭

    Do it AA - triathlons are MUCH easier than marathons!  A great way to start is to do a local sprint tri with a pool swim - e.g. the thames turbo races on bank holiday mondays at Hampden Park.  No wetsuit needed and cheaper entry fee than most.

    If you are feeling keen, theres a tri show this weekend at Sandown park.  You can get reduced entry (£6) if you book using the code tcr11-011

    Well done busy people - I'm on my 4th 12 hour day in the office this week.  Can't imagine trying to do this with kids...

  • Kfc - sounds like long hours at work! I hear you on the kids front, hard enough juggling training with job + husband to look after, lol!

    I'm just cooking a rice risotto now for dinner, i know it's 'bad' to eat so late at night but there's no other way to fit it in after a run.

    Joined the lead legs club tonight image was aiming for 7 miles at m.p, but what a struggle that was, wanted to tell my pace alert to shut up as it kept bleeping! Managed average of 8.09mm.

    Mini hope you enjoyed Cinderalla, you are one organised woman making lasagne at 6am.
  • Fighting again Joddly?
  • kfc.kfc. ✭✭✭

    Just catching up with some missed q's:

    BecsA - I try to run up to 8 mile runs at between 7.30-8.30 min/miles.  At distances above that I'm aiming to do a comfortable but not too slow pace for the first half, then closer to marathon pace (8mm) for the home stretch.  Not sure whether I'm actually doing this - its been a while since I did a race with mile markers and my pace judging is probably a bit wayward.  Am making a conscious effort to practice more at the speed I want to race this year.

    Interesting points on nutrition.  I've always been able to run right after eating and while running, but I've got friends who just can't, and never manage to run as fast in a marathon as I'd expect from their 10k/ half times (e.g. 41min 10k, 4:30 marathon).  My theory has always been that its down to food - they run out of fuel before reaching the end if they cant eat during the race.  DD - my race snack for beachy head was a whole baguette worth of cheese and tomato sandwiches - was glad I carried it round the course at the seven sisters!

  • Evening folks.

    Spent a few hours browsing this thread and well done on all of your  super mileage and speed.

    Just a brief intro. have been running for about 2.5 years and VLM will be my 3rd Marathon first one wolverhampton,  got nutriton and everything spot on and just plodded around in 3.50, then onto Stratford last year had a terrible two days before and finished in 3.44 on for 3.30 until the halfway (20 miles mark) Done the Ashby 20 last year in 2.40 using a progressive stratedgy which I found easy enough and recovered quickly from.   I then sighned up for Notts marathon but unfortunately couldn't make it, got injured playing footy with Sciatica and ended up with 3 months off -  has been a struggle getting back up to where I wanted to be.

    I'm finding the discussion on speedwork and MP pace runs fascinating.  Used to do 800m or Mile reps with half the distance recoveries - and nearly always hit 7M/M.  The other day I  done 800m with 1 minute recoveries just tried 4 reps to start with and my Gosh!! what a difference.

    My big gripe is  these LSR;s with MP  in (I have the book).  I live in a fairly hilly area and find it difficult to hit 8 m/m - have no option but to go up and down several very short and steep hills (several 150 feet climbs in 1/2 mile,  and a couple at 300 + feet in a mile) the down bits are just as bad.  I sometimes get in the car and drive a 30 mile round trip to have a good paced run.  I try to hit 8M/M but I find it hard to,  I can hit 8.20's or 7.40's but not the 8M'M.  I guess it's just practice.  Any thoughts how I can improve this? Not always convenient to drive to a flatish part young family and all that.

    Done a couple of 10K's recently , the  last one even though not a PB I was pleased with my splits - 7.40 congested first mile - chance of PB gone, then 7.14,7.08,7.08,7.06,6.55 and last bit 6.41.  Is this good enough for an attempt at 3.30 I'm tending to aim for about 3.35. but would love to do 3.30.

    Another question  running shoes I've started doing my shorter runs with some performance shoes (Mizuno Musha's) I've got upto 12 miles in training with them.  Any thoughts in doing a Marathon with these type of shoes?

    Enough of me rambling.

    Minni your doing a cracking job with training and this forum.  Good luck with the rest of training.

  • Hi Anothe Hill, quick thought re MP speed. if you're aim is 8mm, and you manage 8:20mm uphill and 7:40mm downhill, is that not averagely perfect?
  • Mr Spoons - yes that would be perfect - I left out this is on flat courses,  my normal hilly courses average out around 8.40 M/M.

  • joddlyjoddly ✭✭✭
    Hi AH.

    Your times suggest you have the pace to run 3.30. Interestingly, your Ashby pace, bang on MP, fits well with Steve Smythe's comments last night on the "other" thread. It's probably going to come down to whether you've got enough long runs in.
    I also asked Steve (in between picking fights, obviously) about trying to keep MP in a hilly long run - his answer was essentially "do what you can"!
  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭

    Lots to catch up on...

    joddly - flight! flight! flight!  Blimey, as AA said, you're brave!  I can see it from all sides over on Alison's thread and I think Moraghan has a valid point (if no diplomacy!).  I think its the way the SSix is being run this year that should be in question.  Maria, on the sub 3.15 thread, seems to be banging her head against a brick wall.  Anyway, I'm sure we haven't heard the end of it!   

    Good advice from Steve regarding your hilly long run, which applies to Another Hill too (Hi Another Hill and welcome).  I also live in a hilly area and its impossible to run a flat route.  It is annoying to get back and find I haven't hit the pace but I justify it by assuring myself I've put the in the required effort.  As Spoons said, over the distance it averages out.

    AH, your race times are impressive and it sounds like 3.30 is within your reach.  Those hills give us strength (or so I'm told...  when I'm running up them I beg to differ...), therefore I try to feel positive about them.  And, London is flat! 

    KFC I took roast beef sandwiches with me on a mountain marathon once.  There were fab!!

    kiwirunner10 wrote (see)
    the lead legs club tonight image was aiming for 7 miles at m.p, but what a struggle that was, wanted to tell my pace alert to shut up as it kept bleeping! Managed average of 8.09mm.

    Not far off Kiwi!  I'd be pretty pleased with that on lead legs.

    AA Tri!  Go for it!  I was having front crawl lessons before Christmas but don't have time at the moment.  I will go back to it and would love to do a tri someday.  (Actually, I'd love to do an IM but I realise my swimming might stop that!)

    I think the boss has a sprint tri today.  Good luck DD.

  • Minni - I think that there is much about the comp this year that merits discussion after the event but your post above is a perfect example of how to encourage discussion, contribution and positive debate. Well done. This is a really interesting thread.

    I am trying very very hard not to make further comment until April!!!!!!
  • Minni - I think you'er right - its the effort put in and if it feels sustainable for a time then that's good. How was Cinders??

    I have now entered the Reading TRi - OMG - thanks to a bit of support on this thread! Popped to the local pool this morning and did 40 lengths for the first time on months - 20 breast strake, 20 crawl. Its a start!

    DD - good luck today!

    Other thread - Steve looks like he is holding it together - joddly, you made me chuckle !

    Think I am now going to rest until Wokingham Half on Sunday - and the weather still looks awful. Checked a few other websites to see if I can find one I like - but alas, no!!! image

  • joddlyjoddly ✭✭✭
    Oh dear, I'd written a long post but it doesn't seem to have made it. Will try again briefly.

    Re "other thread". There was a particularly enraging post which got me going, though it was deleted rather quickly. He may have a point, but makes it in a negative and bitter way which must be upsetting for K. I did get a bit twitchy when I read about the India trip, but the positive from that is than we can (almost)all identify with that sort of situation, and learn something. I'm particularly volatile at the moment as hardly trained for over a week with a cold/bronchitis thing, and feel the clock is ticking loudly!

    I agree, Steve is doing a great job there.

    Re hilly runs - I never make up time on the downhills, so my averages are always slower than they should be, on hilly runs. It's useful to have logged times over the same routes in previous years, so I can can still get an idea of where I am vs race performances.

    Re Tri - well done for entering AA - that is a really good start. And don't worry about swimming ability for IM, Minni - it doesn't stop the Pirates!
  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭
    joddly wrote (see)
    . And don't worry about swimming ability for IM, Minni - it doesn't stop the Pirates!

    Ha ha - I've watched Ironman Live on net and never seen any with a ring, wings and snorkel!

    Good on you for entering AA.  Perhaps DD can give us virtual tri coaching too....?

    Sue  C thanks for your comments.  Your thread a couple of years ago was a real inspiration to me.

    AA - Good luck on Sunday.  I wish we had more control over the weather.  I'd have the wind behind me all the way!

  • Joddly - I haven't run for nearly 3 months now and so I feel that I am showing amazing restraint!!!!

    Minni - thanks. But that's the point isn't it? I really felt that making frequent and detailed posts about how my training was going and how I was feeling etc etc was my part of the bargain, so to speak. Plus asking questions of my mentor, Liz and including everybody. Look how fantastic MM's thread was but how much he GAVE, despite a busy busy life. It wasn't just my thread, it was for everybody! I am just not sure that is happening sometimes this year. I wonder if RW knew about the holiday for example?

    Just thoughts, that's all........ and we are all different..... maybe the selection process needs to find this out in some way.

    Bit of a difference in mentors too this year!!!!!
  • Sue C wrote (see)
    Joddly - I haven't run for nearly 3 months now and so I feel that I am showing amazing restraint!!!! Minni - thanks. But that's the point isn't it? I really felt that making frequent and detailed posts about how my training was going and how I was feeling etc etc was my part of the bargain, so to speak. Plus asking questions of my mentor, Liz and including everybody. Look how fantastic MM's thread was but how much he GAVE, despite a busy busy life. It wasn't just my thread, it was for everybody! I am just not sure that is happening sometimes this year. I wonder if RW knew about the holiday for example? Just thoughts, that's all........ and we are all different..... maybe the selection process needs to find this out in some way. Bit of a difference in mentors too this year!!!!!

    If you read Alison's thread Steve says yesterday that RW didn't know about the holiday and if they did she wouldn't have been shortlisted. Didn't Right Said Aouita go on holiday in 2009 Sue / Joddly? I know Joddly took over RSA's SSX thread that year if memory serves me correctly.
    I think that for the less experienced posters, it's hard for them to realise you do have to put the work into the thread to get the thing going but it does help if you get Steve or Liz Yelling as a mentor for instance. They really seem to grasp the concept of mentoring via the forums and engage with people be they the SSXers or normal posters.
    If Alison has a busy job, she must have known of this before she entered the competition and also the holiday to India so I do question why she entered if she knew in advance she would have to post regularly. I had to fit in posting around running 6 days a week, doing my job and being a husband and father to two young children - not unlike Minni here - if you get the prize then you have to give back surely?

    RW seem to have got on board with vetting people for pre-existing injuries with their pre-selection boot camp which has stopped people like Belly Boy Barnes and his back injury from 2009 getting through only to then have to pull out.
    I also understand that getting new posters is part of their remit but there was no explanation from RW to us in last year's SSX about what was expected of us in terms of thread input and it seems they don't appear to have agreed terms and expectations with Bud either. Because they haven't done this, they've now got the situation where Upsy Daisy is floundering with no support, Bud being more useless than Paul Evans last year and Alison giving little feedback except through Steve who tells us she's doing track sessions with him.

  • Minni

    just popped in to see how things are going.

    I'm a nosy cow who follows all the super 6 threads most years and this year are definitely a bit strange....and being me I have not been able to hold my opinions........image.probably one of the many reasons they would never pick me..............image

    regarding tri's............unless you can't swim 25 m at all and have a real phobia about water then IM swims are doable wuth a little effort.................The week after a marathon is the perfect time to start the training as you can just ease yourself into gentle swimming and cycling to avoid running and to help prevent the post marathon blues.................

    well it worked for me in 2008image

  • MM - sorry for any typos, i am on my daughters tiny ipod and it's got some sort of weird predictive text and a tiny screen!! In 2009, Dan kind of lost interest half way through, not sure why. I know lucozade were seriously cheesed off though. Nigel did everything he could to get over his injury and still came and supported us all on the day.

    We didn't get any guidance either about out threads, which rather increases the case for using established forumites to develop lively and interesting threads which new contributors could then maybe feel confident to post on, thus satisying more people maybe?

    Taken me ages to type this!!!!!
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