RW Forum Six - Sub 3:30

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  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭

    Tomorrow will be ok but its later in the week that I might hit problems with meetings, school parents evening etc.  I'm feeling less tired now so might try to fit it in later.

    800m reps.  I know some time ago we talked about the varying distances of reps in the P & D schedule and concluded these where perhaps to add variety rather than being of any specific benefit.  With this in mind, do you think I should stick with the 800m distance and build them up rather than switch between 600m, 800m, 1200, and 1600m? To get them up to 10 I would be adding one a week for the next six weeks. The thought of it makes me feel sick....image ... but I will do it.

    Have a good day celebrating DD1's 7th birthday tomorrow! 

  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭

    Incidentally, when I ran my 800m reps I didn't know the pace until I downloaded the data. Once I started realised I hadn't set the garmin up to show the pace, but I actually think this worked quite well.  I knew the first one had been too quick because my arms were starting to feel numb by the end of it.  I knew the last one was the slowest because the head wind was a bit stonger and I felt like I was working harder, but it still seemed to take longer.  

    I think I may feel more relaxed not knowing the pace rather than constantly checking it. 

  • Minni - a sports massage really takes it our of the muscles and your body will still be mending, so for the full affect of the treatment to take place I wouldn't run - or if you do need to I wouldn't advise 8 miles.

    3 miles recovery run today for me. Legs heavy.

    Advice please... - Ive got the Bramley 20 on Sunday - what's the best angle for this as in previous years I have run it all as close to marathon pace as possible, but I'm thinking 10 miles easy then up the pace to MPish in the last 10??

    DD - have a good day tomorrow

  • Wow, a lot of fantastic stuff going on at the weekend.

    AA - what a cracking time image and Minni, well done on the 800s.

    Impressive mileage banked, kfc and Ant.

    9 weeks, ey. PANIC!!!  Spoons, I am so not ready either and by the looks of things I will bank a big fat ZERO mile week this week image. Big event at work meant I had no time on Friday and Saturday. And then I must have picked a virus up or something. Woke up with a chest infection on the Saturday and it got gradually worse. Boo hoo.

    Can you believe that we have snow again?? It's freezing too and there will be more of the white stuff later in the week. However, I'd rather be out there in the cold than being benched. OK, enough self-pity, I shut up now.

    AA: I think your plan for Bramley sounds very sensible. Reign yourself in in the first 8 or so (if you can, I find it terribly difficult) and then speed up gradually so you reach MP or thereabouts for the final 10 and just hold on for dear life.

    I have a half scheduled on Sunday. Should I just bin it? What would you guys do? Maybe a forced week off is like a mega-taper but somehow I don't think so. Any advice welcome.

  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭

     AA I'm no expert but your idea sounds good.  Someone on the 3.15 thread has just run a progressive 20 ...  increasing the pace every 4 miles.  I'll see if I can find it a copy it for you. 

    Panic over. I've had a member of staff off for the last 5 weeks and I've been covering her. This week I also various people off at the end of the week, so things have been a bit stressful.  However, the person who has been off ill is going to be back on Wednesday image, which means I'll be able to get a couple of hours off on Wednesday and Friday to fit my runs in.  Phew!

  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭

     AA it was Keir on the sub 3.15 thread and this was his stratergy...

    Followed Gobi’s programme as recommended to / by Martin

    0-4m @ MP +45-60sec,

    5-8m @ MP +30-45sec,

    9-12m @ MP +15-30sec,

    13-16m @ MP – MP+15sec,

    17-20m AVIT!) 

    I think he got it from the RW Forum Six Martin H v Gobi - Sub 3:00.  Does that help?

  • kfc.kfc. ✭✭✭

    I'm on the lookout for some advice too.  Looking at the next 2 weeks, I'm going to struggle to do anything longer than 10miles (long hours at work, plus 2 weekends travelling far afield to see friends I dont see often enough = no chances to disappear for 3 hours to run - I'm not as dedicated as some of you are on my holidays/weekends away!).

    I've worked hard to build up the mileage over the last few weeks and want to keep it up so I'm going to try and get in two 10milers during the week, and lots of shorter commute runs.  From the previous discussions here I'm expecting the advice will be to fill the long run gap with speed work.  Scary.  Never really done this before and I'm a bit worried about injury.  I do have a free to use grit 400m track half a mile from my flat, which I guess will be useful image

    What is a good session I can start on at this stage to ease me into it, and build up in subsequent weeks?  Is it wise to start on the 800's Minni is doing (4x800 at 3:30 with 3:30 recovery - is that right?) without having done sessions like this before? 

    ps.  Thanks for the 20M pace tips - will remember that for Worthing next month!

  • good news about the member of staff returning on wednesdayimage

    I personally would not recommend a session after a sports massage.........best to rest..............

    off course it depends on the massage you are having as they differ.............some people have a pre event massage...............

    but if you are having one to help recover from your sessions and to prevent injuries then resist from running that dayimage

  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭

    Chick - cross post earlier.  Sunday is still a long way off and you might feel better by then?  I wouldn't ditch it just yet but wait and see how you feel on Friday?  Hope it clears quickly.

    kfc -  I hadn't done the 800m sessions before last week and I started with 3, but that was only because I was on the treadmill and couldn't face a 4th.  I would think, like me, that the 4 x 800 would be fine.  I made the recovery 3 mins because I though 3.30 was a bit to long, but its down to preference.  I know the more experienced do shorter recoveries...   I was really tired yesterday after the session.

    I was thinking about your 10 mile runs.  Could you try to do a couple in a double session, ie am and pm, or pm then am?  This might get you closer to the long run feeling because you'd be running the second session on tired legs.  Or any chance of getting even one of them up to 16...?

    seren - I resisted image

  • Good idea re: a double 10. Otherwise some long tempo runs might be in order. 10 miles at HM pace.

    AA - the other comment Gobi said re: this session was "make no mistake, this is a tough session". I definitely would NOT do 20 @ MP. I would either do:
    10 @ MP+60-90 then 10 @ MP if you are a wuss like me or try Gobi's progressive run. Don't forget though, that Gobi churns out sub 3 hour marathons as a training run / easy jog so he's not like us mere mortals.
  • kfc.kfc. ✭✭✭

    Interesting thought on the double, hadn't thought of that.  I first thought that doing a longer run in the evening would be out (I run along east London towpaths which are great, but I don't take the risk after dark), but I'm planning to turn up to a local club for the first time tomorrow evening - if that works out that could give me a longer run in the evening too.

  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭

    The club sounds good kfc - if I need to do a longer run I often run 5 or 6 miles before I meet them then that session is generally another 6 miles.  Also, ask around the club tomorrow night -  someone else might be in the same position as you and join you for a run after dark.  I don't blame you for not going on the towpaths after dark yourself.  I'm not sure if I'd even do that during the day.  I remember what happened to Dirty Den...! 

  • Minni wrote (see)

    800m reps.  I know some time ago we talked about the varying distances of reps in the P & D schedule and concluded these where perhaps to add variety rather than being of any specific benefit.  With this in mind, do you think I should stick with the 800m distance and build them up rather than switch between 600m, 800m, 1200, and 1600m? To get them up to 10 I would be adding one a week for the next six weeks. The thought of it makes me feel sick....image ... but I will do it.


    As previously discussed you can switch them around if you want, but sticking to 800's will give you a reference point. When you do speed work for 8 - 9 months of the year as I do then there is a point in switching distances to break the monotony! But given that this is your first serious attempt at speed work then I would stick to the 800's build the number of reps and then if your feeling confident reduce the recovery. If your feeling super confident finish off with a set of 4 x 200 flat out off 1 min recoveries, good for developing that sprint finish when your tired!

    Minni wrote (see)

    Incidentally, when I ran my 800m reps I didn't know the pace until I downloaded the data. Once I started realised I hadn't set the garmin up to show the pace, but I actually think this worked quite well.  I knew the first one had been too quick because my arms were starting to feel numb by the end of it.  I knew the last one was the slowest because the head wind was a bit stonger and I felt like I was working harder, but it still seemed to take longer.  

    I think I may feel more relaxed not knowing the pace rather than constantly checking it. 

    Good, its all about feeling the pace, personally I never look at my garmin during the rep, I'm running to hard and concentrating on my form and breathing.  I am constantly amazed at the brains ability to set a pace and keep to it, for instance if I say to myself today i will run 8 x 1K at 4 min/k pace I start running and can guarentee I will be within 5 seconds of the pace with no external reference, I have no idea how it happens but it does. Of course it also helps if you don't set unrealistic targets

  • Always Aching wrote (see)

    Advice please... - Ive got the Bramley 20 on Sunday - what's the best angle for this as in previous years I have run it all as close to marathon pace as possible, but I'm thinking 10 miles easy then up the pace to MPish in the last 10??


    Well here is a contentious question, many do run 20 milers at marathon pace as  a dress rehersal and indeed assuming I was feeling marathon fit this is the approach i would take but I have run more than 40 marathons, indeed steve the marathon coach on the other 3-30 thread wrote

    Steve Marathon Coach wrote (see)

    Personally I never run marathon pace in training as I can't but always do a 20 mile race at MP which I always find relatively easy and I do quite a few halfs.

    Of course I'm very experienced at marathon running and have 35 previous years of marathoning and what I sugest to someone who is new without the background would be different and there more running at marathon pace is essential.

    There it is in a nutshell, I would suggest AA that you either follow the approach suggested by Minni with a progressive increase in pace though I think this will be quite hard to do / judge or alternatively run the first half slow and the second 10 at MP, I prefer this approach as to me it gives you longer at MP and this is something we are trying to get all of you used to. 

    Chick: You are having a tough time of it aren't you, with regard to Sundays 1/2M its going to depend how you feel say by Friday, if you OK go for it, if you still feel chesty don't. Please be careful I ended up with pneumonia two years ago after running a marathon with a cold.

    KFC: i concur with Minni try to do 2 x10 in one day, doubles aren't ideal but I have used them in the past when stuck for time and they certainly teach you to run on tired legs, especially if you run the 1st one slow and the 2nd at MP. As to speed work I can't advise you re the pace as I don't know what your present 5k / 10K times are but if you go to macmillan running Here then you can enter your recent times and get a reasonable idea of what sort of pace you should be doing 800 reps at. Start with 4 reps off a absolute max of 3 minutes recovery, I prefer 2 mins recovery or less but you will find that too hard straight off. Welcome to a new level of pain!

    Hope I haven't missed anyone! last nights club run was extreme! Somehow we ended up doing the last 4 K at well under 4 min/k's after we swore to take it easy before RAK 1/2M on Friday..... 8 -10 miles aerobic for me today before going home for DD1's birthday cake, he was very excited at 0600!

  • Thanks for the advice everyone. I have run 13 marathons in the last 10 years and have always approached Bramley as a dress rehersal but the problem is if I can't sustain the pace towards the end its really bad for the confidence. Think I will try and do the first half slower then increase the pace to finish strong. The session of increasing by 15 seconds every 4 miles sounds really good but I think that might be too hard for me.

    Chick - really hope you feel better soon.

  • during my OH first marathon training he raced a few 20 milers............he struggled in th marathon. and finished in 4:10 for the next 2 marathons he didn't race any of his long runs........he managed 3:28 and then 3:23.

    obviously I think it must all be linked to recovery times and the general mileage you do all year as well as maybe ageimage

  • seren nos  - good point - my best marathon time of 3:29 I didn't do any races at all.

  • But from the other point of view I had raced 11 times in the 12 weeks preceding my marathon PB, its perfectly possible to race yourself fit. Before Athens marathon October 2010 I had raced a Olympic distance tri 2 days previously and still ran a easy 3-42 on a course that is essentially uphill. So it kind of depends what your used to. Though based on my own experience I have got quicker since I raced more. Perhaps I would do better if I actually tapered but again my own experience doesn't show that to be necessarily true either, we are all a experiment of 1. What I do tend to do these days is semi taper but do speed work right up to 2 or 3 days before the event. There is a enough circumstantial evidence out there to suggest that hard workouts over shorter distances in the taper period benefit performance over resting or easy exercise, worth a thought?
  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭

    Lots to read and not enough time right now but...

    imagehappy birthday to DD1image

  • DD - totally with you on the speed work. I do quality speed work all the way through and including marathon week. Think my problem is with races is that I ache afterwards and therefore it can affect the quality of my speed sessions in the following week.

    image hope DD1 is having a nice day!

  • Happy Birthday DD1 - enjoy the cake image

    Thanks for the advice on Sunday's half. I will not stress about it and just see how I feel. If all else fails I can simply jog it. Schedule says 15 mile LSR , think I can manage that. Will just look for another race in a few weeks time so I can give it a blast.

    DD, very interesting about speedwork during taper. P+D actually do include some reps in the first taper week, not in the 2nd though which is probably a shortcoming as a lot of people (me included) feel quite sluggish while tapering.

    Black ice and snow today - ugh.

  • Hi All,

     I haven't posted this year but I just wanted to gain from your collective wisdom please image

    Last year I was targetting an (optimistic in hindsight) 3:30 as my first marathon, it was all going ok until mile 18/19 when I hit the wall and jogged/walked/swore my way to a 3:54. I had done up to 22 miles in training but at the recommended pace of 8:30 - 9 minutes per mile.

    For this year I figured that expecting to run a faster pace for a longer disance than trained for might be unrealistic so I've been running at 8mm pace during my long runs...is this clever or stupid?

     Also, a general question on timing, if like me you live in London or somewhere pretty urban I have to cross about 10-15 roads to get to a decent sized park where I can run continuously...do you stop your running watch during the traffic light waits or just let it continue? I did a 21.7m run at the weekend @ 7:48..but this was by stopping the clock when I had to wait..prob adding a good 10-15 minutes on to total run time.

    Thanks in advance!

  • aca: I'm a great advocate of Marathon paced training runs, but not all the time! Try running your long runs at say 08-30 to 08-45 min/miles then speed up to MP for the last 6 miles or so. You need to include a weekly tempo run of around 6 -8 miles at 1/2M pace and weekly interval sessions, Then its two general aerobic runs and a recovery run (not in that order i hasten to add!). Alternatively you can go and buy a copy of Advanced marathoning and it will give you all sorts of schedules.

    Its worth remembering that generic schedules can't possibly suit every runner and its perfectly alright to mix and match to meet your own requirements / target your weaknesses.

    I always stop my garmin if I stop for lights or whatever, these are things which don't occur in races. If your doing 22 miles at 7-48 you really shouldn't have a problem doing a 3 -30 marathon.

  • Mmm. LT session in the pouring rain. Glad that's out the way. Did 4 miles at around HMP averaging 7:38. Skipped a couple of warmup miles cos of the weather but got all the fast stuff in. Hope I haven't caught cold because of it. Gym tomorrow.

    Re the 20 milers discussion. I think I might try the Gade Valley one this year and do around half of it at MP. Lots of hills around there as well. erk

    Cheers, Ant
  • Chick - hope you're feeling better soon, good idea to reassess for the half on Friday.

    Rubbish run in the rain here, swapped sessions to do p&d 8miles with 5x800m, blip with garmin so ended up doing 6 sets, couldn't get the speed tonight, struggled to get below 7:30m/m image shall blot that one from the memory!
  • kfc.kfc. ✭✭✭
    I plucked up the courage and went to the club last night. Found out it was interval night so ended up doing a session of 5 reps of 4m30s efforts. Phew - after running 5 miles to get there as well, it was a struggle to run the 2 miles home! Really glad I finally got along to the club, looks like they have a great set up.

    I think the combined effects of last nights session, my long run on Sunday, and increased mileage have now caught up with me - the legs feel fragile and the body is knackered. Am going to rest today, and hope thats helps me get in a couple of quality 10M runs on Thursday.

    aca - echoing what dd said, looks like you should be able to take a chunk off your pb this year. Do you think your fade at the end was purely down to setting off at an overoptimistic pace, or was there something else going on thats worth looking at (e.g lack of food/water/injury)

    Off to brave the dirty den towpath - on the bike today though!
  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭

    So much to catch up on...

    DD, thanks for the advice re 800m reps.  I will just stick to them over the next few weeks and see what happens.  I'm going to attempt the 5x on Friday.   I think I'll leave the 4 x 200m for now.....

    Hope you didn't eat too much cake!

    AA have you recovered from the half?  What does your week look like considering you did the half on  Sunday and you have the 20 this Sunday?

    Chick feeling any better?

    aca Welcome!  You certainly sound like you have the ability to hit the target.  Listen to DD on the paces of the long runs and I can recommend the Advanced Marathoning book.  It has really helped me understand the science behind the running.  Why you do what etc.  Advanced Marathoning

    Ant Yuk.. LT in the pouring rain.  It doesn't get much grimmer than that. 

    Kiwi At least you did the session.  What was the problem... tired?  I'm going to do it on Friday.

    kfc The club sounds great!  What distance do you think you ended up doing - 11/12 miles?  A lot of people are terrified of clubs, thinking they are full of highly competitive runners, but once they go along the find like minded people all struggling for the same goal.  I think it will really help you get the miles in.   I think the advice on the double session would be to run one a bit harder than the other.  Maybe DD can elaborate?

    kfc. wrote (see)
     Off to brave the dirty den towpath - on the bike today though!

    Lol! 

    I did 6 miles with the club last night.  After a warm up we headed for a circuit of about 1400m I reckon and paired up.  The first circuit was run  in the opposite direction to your partner and mark the place where you met and jog back.  Following this,  the aim was to try to get further each time with the jog recovery.  We swapped directions after two to make it fair and did 5 in total.  We got virtually the same spot each time although we were both trying harder!  Evenly matched I suppose.  It was a good session anyway.   8 miles GA for me later, which I'm going to do off road.  The weather here is abysmal today.  Oh, and I'm tired this week too image.

    BecsA Not sure where you're based but the Kielder marathon and the Newcastle marathon,  both in October, have just opened entries.  I've got my Newcastle one posted off.  I was 6th lady last year and will be looking to improve on that this year! 

  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭
    Just one more thing, the half on the 6th March is looking dodgy.  As far as the training is concerned its ideal.  Flattish, perfect timing etc but I have to balance this with the night out in the city with the girls the night before.  I'm getting a bit of pressure not to run it.  The alternative is a half on 27th March, which is also quite local, but I think might also be quite hilly.  The hilly bit doesn't bother me that much (I usually run Coniston 14 three weeks before) but a flatter one might give a better indication of when I am (or am not!)image
  • Minni  - I did 3 recovery on Monday, busy day with work yesterday followed by my first Zumba class last night (anything for a laugh and was hard and sweaty!). This morning I have just done 5 x 1600s which felt really hard and I have that "brain fog" feeling after - does anyone else get this after a hard session? Then hitting the pool at lunctime for 40 lengths. Hope to be able to find time to do 5 easy tomorrow and then let body rest til Sunday's 20. image

    Chick - how you feeling now?

    DD - Hope you had a fun day yesterday and managed to rest after your crazy day on Monday!

    kfc - bet you're tired now!

  • Hi All

    Thanks for all the birthday wished for DD1, the birthday partry complete with 16 other 7 year old boys (god help me) is tomorrow afternoon as its a bank holiday. Cake was duely demolished by DD1 & DD2.

    kfc: Good luck with the double I would do the first hard and the second easy. Clubs are great aren't they? I seem to spend half my life trying to persuade runners to join clubs, as soon as they do they all say why didn't I do this sooner. Its the perception that everyone in a club  is quick which certainly isn't true in my club.

    MinnI; Sounds like a interesting session last night, with regards to the 1/2, well sometimes life gets in the way and its best to go with the flow, after all we are not professionals and none of us get paid to do this.

    AA: Don't know about brain fog but I certainly don't sleep well after hard sessions. How did the swim go? I just ploughed through 130 lengths!

    kiwi: Sometimes sh*&ty runs just happen, banish it from the mind.

    3.25K swim done and a short speed work session tonight, probably 3.5K warm up 4 x 800 off 90 seconds @ 5K pace and a 3 K cool down. RAK 1/2M on friday.

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