RW Forum Six - Sub 3:30

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  • I wear Skins tights on all my runs and I have started wearing them after any long runs and quality sessions too. I'm not sure if it is making a difference but I have been able to increase my mileage without having any issues so I'm going to carry on. The only other time I did high mileage, my legs felt like lead weights for most of the time.
  • Minni - no chance of a PB I'm afraid. I'm doing Ropsley Raid which is X country 13 miles of mud image

    Kiwirunner - I suffered loads from shin splints a few years ago. I tried everything. I cured it with a cocktail of regular sports massage, stretching (particularly calves, shins and ankles) and mixing up running surfaces. I do over half my miles off road. I also wear orthotics now.
  • Thanks for your responses - i think i'll start wearing the comp socks regularly. Have been really careful to stretch well every day, no niggles yet, so hoping preventitive measures will work.
  • AA sorry to hear you're too ill for wine.  That must be some cough.  You've been getting a good mileage in recently (didn't you do a 16 miler last week?) and its better to be ill now that in 6 weeks time.  There's lots going around.  I hope you shake it off soon.  I've had to get an inhaler for the first time in about 3 years to help with coughing immediately after running.

    CG Sunday's run is one of my favourite routes.  Not too hilly with a mix of beach, track and a bit of road thrown in for good measure.  Are you following the garmin ready schedule or has it been custom made for you by your coach?  You seem to be doing well on it!  What is your plan for York?  Go out all guns blazing or stick to marathon pace?

    Kiwi - compression socks.  I have them and do wear them when I can find them! I won a pair of Skins recovery tights on here last year and I wear those loads. Mainly after running (hence recovery), and in bed (!!!). But, I also wear them under other tights to keep my legs warm during this cold weather.  I've ordered another pair of running ones that should be here soon.   How are you enjoying the P & D book?  Someone on the 3.15 thread has made a spreadsheet for the plan.  Its mega and I've downloaded it onto my computer.  You can find it here hopefully.  If not go on the sub 3.15 thread and its the third post down on page 63.  Steve seems happy for others to use it.

    Mr Spoons, CG Off road running.  Thanks to Dave for the comments debating time versus miles.  How do you two tackle off road running?  CG I noticed you have so many 20 mile runs and also 2 runs of 3.5 hours.  Will these be off -oad?  A running buddy has set out a 15 mile, hilly, off-road run for Sunday.  I'll give that a bash and see how long it takes etc.

    My equal SuperSixer seems to be quiet.  There's lots of encouragement there for her and I'm hoping she'll get on target over the next few weeks. It'll be interesting to see what her coach tells her in relation to sessions and I'm hoping to pick up a few tips for myself.

    My 5 mile recovery was as pleasent as it could be on a cold damp day.  Rest tomorrow I think, followed by a 10mile general aerobic on Friday.

    Looking forward to the forum trip to Dubai for some hot weather training.  That was part of the deal right......?image

  • Your all welcome in Dubai for some warm weather training whenever you want, all you have to do is fly yourself here, book a hotel and I'll come and find you.

    I wear compression calf guards when doing speedwork / racing, I find them more comfortable than socks, I also use compression tights for recovery but find that they seem to work better after a long ride than when running.

    I was doing intervals last night 10 x 800M off 75 second recoveries and whilst I managed to hit the same times as a month ago they were harder work so the xmas lard is obviously having an effect. Must hide that gin bottle.  One day I'll go on the wagon for weeks before I race and see if it makes any difference, but as someone who races pretty well weekly from October to April that would require living a monastic life during the best period of weather here, so that isn't going to happen,

  • Hi Minni - re: off road running: I still go by mileage not time, but I don't worry about speed. If a 20 miler ends up taking 4 hours because I'm trudging across muddy fields then so be it, it's all time on your feet. I then do tempo runs and intervals (mostly mile reps) when I get worried about speed. I do a few LSRs with, say, 15 miles off road, then the last 5 back on the road at marathon pace.
  • Have been over on the "Chosen Ones" Sub 3-30 Forum , I too will be interested to see what the coach comes up with. One thing it did remind me of was a piece of advice I receiverd years ago from a grizzled marathoner which was "You can't hope to run 26 miles at 8 min/mile pace unless you can run one mile at 7 min/pace" Ever since then I have always run 1 mile a week before my marathons at MP -1 minute just to be sure!

    I find Yasso's a silmilar type of running folklore / myth they are basically a 5K pace set of intervals and I personally find a set of 10 x 800M  with each interval taking 3 mins 30 seconds and a equal jogged recovery pretty easy to achieve but by experience it doesn't necessarily indicate a sub 3-30 marathon.

  • Hi Minni - the P.D book is brilliant, I love the way they throughly explain what to do and why to do it!  I'm following the core stability exercises and mixing the training at the moment with the runners world schedule, quite a difference in mileage between the 2 - runner's world has tonight as 4 miles, 1 warm up, 2 brisk, 1 warm down, compared to P&D general aerobic 10 miles.  Think I may go for 6/7, worried about adding too many miles at this early stage..... but hoping to reach the P&D targets within the next couple of weeks.

     Thanks for the link to the spreadsheet, it will be very useful!

  • Dubai Dave wrote (see)

    Have been over on the "Chosen Ones" Sub 3-30 Forum , I too will be interested to see what the coach comes up with. One thing it did remind me of was a piece of advice I receiverd years ago from a grizzled marathoner which was "You can't hope to run 26 miles at 8 min/mile pace unless you can run one mile at 7 min/pace" Ever since then I have always run 1 mile a week before my marathons at MP -1 minute just to be sure!

    Interesting approach, and a nice little psychological pep. Do you incorporate it into a wider interval session, or just chuck it in as and when?
  • All very interesting over here (I too have been lurking on the other Sixer sub-3.30 thread.

    My P&D book arrived this morning....I now need to find a quiet corner to absorb it, but already the schedule (as kiwirunner mentioned) looks very different.  Need to get my head round it really, as it doesn't seem to have any real mention of intervals (aka Runners World schedule) at all.

    5m tempo for me this evening, first proper speed running for ages, averaging 8.08m/m, which isn't great until you add in the two slow downs to catch my breath - none of that next week! 

  • I also have the P & D book although I haven't had time to read it all yet image

    For last year's Abingdon marathon I did 4 x mile reps each week at sub 7 min mile pace. Oh, and I didn't get a sub 3:30 marathon image
  • Hi Lake ... yes, its all very interesting over on the 'other' thread.  There are lots of valid points being thrown around but unfortunately Kryptonite is keeping quiet.  I  thought that when the SuperSix were chosen they had a target time and the potential to reach that target.  I'm sure that the shorted listed people were carefully chosen and the coaches must be confident that they can reach their target. So, we need Kryptonite to be on there being positive and getting lots of encouragment from her coach.  I just wonder why they didn't give her the sub 3.45 catogory instead of 3.30 if that was a more realistic target.  Anyway, its got us all debating paces!

    Dubai Dave wrote (see)

    Have been over on the "Chosen Ones" Sub 3-30 Forum , I too will be interested to see what the coach comes up with. One thing it did remind me of was a piece of advice I receiverd years ago from a grizzled marathoner which was "You can't hope to run 26 miles at 8 min/mile pace unless you can run one mile at 7 min/pace" Ever since then I have always run 1 mile a week before my marathons at MP -1 minute just to be sure!

    I find Yasso's a silmilar type of running folklore / myth they are basically a 5K pace set of intervals and I personally find a set of 10 x 800M  with each interval taking 3 mins 30 seconds and a equal jogged recovery pretty easy to achieve but by experience it doesn't necessarily indicate a sub 3-30 marathon.

    Can that MP -1 minute be run downhill ...image  I've tried Yassos in the past but found them too hard after about 3.  But, that will not be the case this year! 

    Kiwi - glad you're enjoying the book and yes, that spreadsheet is the King of spreadsheets. I'm logging everything on it.    Kiwi/lake  I was drawn to the P & D schedule because I think it suits my running more.  I'd rather do longer runs and I'm finding is quite easy at the moment. However, that will all change in a few weeks I fear when the sessions start to get harder.

    Mr Spoons thanks for the advice re off-road. I'll do the 15 on Sunday and report back.

  • Cross post .. Mr Spoons, get reading!
  • I can't read all that!

    It is a bit odd on the "other thread". To be honest, if a supersix person doesn't do any forum posting and frankly doesn't sound like she has much of a chance of hitting the goal, then did they choose wisely?
  • I know, look at me! I would have been ideal!!  image   Seriously though, it is a lot of pressure and you need to be ahead of the game as far as posting goes.  Hopefully she'll get back on track. 

    I read the book cover to cover then have gone back to bits of interest. I keep looking at the nutrition info and think I'd like to make sure I'm getting all the food stuff correct but I haven't actually got the scales out yet....    It does say the odd glass of wine, and coffee, is fine!

  • Hi Minni

    I spoke to Kryptonite (alison) today as we work for the same firm and she said that she will start posting more. She is a loverly person and is really working hard with the schedule she has been given.

    We work in a high pressure buisiness which can mean working long hours but I know she is doing the training, just not posting (very difficult for her during the day) as much as some.

    I think she is a little nervous about posting due to the negativity she has had from certain quaters but I have reassured her that the more she posts the more support and encouragement she will recieve.

    anyhoo it sounds like you are doing well yourself image 

  • Tommygun, that's great news.  I was going to PM her some works of encouragement but she doesn't have it enabled. I don't think anyone intends to be negative, more of just a lively debate.  You're right about the support and there are lots of people eager to get behind her! 
  • Ok I'll get her to enable PM's tomorrow and give her another nudge re the posting thing
  • Hi Folks

    Wobbled: no I don't include the 1 mile in set of intervals etc, I just run it. To be honest its just a confidence boost as I run my 1/2 marathons at that pace anyway.  Its a positive reinforcement of what your capable of and you cannot have too many positive mental  boosts along the way to a marathon. So much of running is in the mind particularly when your tired.

    Pleased to hear that Kryptonite will be posting on her thread soon, I'm afraid that a certain degree of negativity is always present on these forums but generally the positive out weighs the negative. Anyway people are entitled to their opinion even if you don't agree with it.

    Minni: You can get very into nutrition, in my club we have a professional sport nutritionist, she speaks much sense but sometimes life is for living. The one thing i have taken on board from her and my own reading is the idea of lots of small meals through the day rather than a large meal at night, seems to work.

    No running for me today, just back from 70 miles on the bike. Friday / Saturday being the weekend here, racing a 8K tomorrow will be interested to see how much pace I've lost over xmas.

  • Morning all, just in from 8m recovery in freezing rain - nice!  Especially when my glasses get all waterlogged so I have to run without them - I've got quite poor vision without them and all I see are blobs of colour going past.  Very like LSD I imagine.

    Yes, the other sixer thread is very odd at the minute - I imagine Kryptonite is keeping her head down - so would I with some of the discussion on there is as if she is a piece of meat.  I'm still not sure who is supposed to be mentoring her (is it Steve or someone else?) as they are very quiet too. All seems quite unfair & puts me off entering next year actually.  Hopefully Alison will be OK.

    DD- the idea of lots of small meals through the day makes good sense, but I find that I quite enjoy the large meal in the evening, whether or not I've eaten during the day (usually not).  My 'reward' for runnnig as much as I do is that I allow myself to eat pretty much what I want, ie. tons of pasta, spag bol, etc  (in the quantities I want).   Having said that, it doesn't work when I'm not running, as I blow up like a balloon.

  • lake wrote (see)

    Yes, the other sixer thread is very odd at the minute - I imagine Kryptonite is keeping her head down - so would I with some of the discussion on there is as if she is a piece of meat.  I'm still not sure who is supposed to be mentoring her (is it Steve or someone else?) as they are very quiet too. All seems quite unfair & puts me off entering next year actually.  Hopefully Alison will be OK.

    I think its Steve but, you're right, there's not much to go on.   I hope she is getting a lot of support via emails etc. 

    10.43 general aerobic for me this morning in, average 8.51.  Its mighty cold out there today and we have snow forecast for this evening again image

  • Minni: I have just pulled my copy of P & D off the shelf, what week are we on?

    Lake: I used to love my large evening meal right to a couple of months ago and indeed I still ocassionally indulge, but put simply your body doesn't need a large meal before its going to sleep.  There is a lot of stuff about nutrition in all the IM books I'm presently reading and it goes into quite a bit more depth than any of the running books I've read but there again not many runners go beyond a marathon or 3-5 hours of running, 10 -17 hours of intense effort is a different story. Indeed it was only when I worked out by trial and error a sensible and workable nutrition plan that I cracked the sub 9 hours at Comrades on my 4th attempt.

  • Still here with my bad chest and no running at all - the cough is awful and its affecting my energy levels - just hoping its not full blown flu. Have decided to not even think about running until after this weeked now. image

    Well done to everyone knocking out the miles in the freezing rain.

    Nutrition - I really recommend Anita Bean - she knows her stuff, especially on sports nutrition.

  • I really didn't see any of the discussion on the other thread as negative. I feel it was opening up a much needed debate about the fact that the competition puts so much pressure on people to fit into certain time categories at a very early stage.

    Personally, I am always interested in other peoples training especially when they are being mentored by someone as experienced as Steve and I would have liked to have heard a little more from Alison about how each session was going.

    I set off straight from school today into a snow blizzard and it didn't stop at all for the 3 hours and 15 or so minutes that I was running. A very tough off road run today with some big climbs not made any easier by 2 inches of snow. Another 20 done thoughimage

    I was very amused to be asked on a date by a postman on my last stretch as I waited to cross a road. I had wet hair plastered all over my face and was covered in snow!

    Minni - I intend to do most of my long runs off road and not be concerned by pace. I will probably run 2 of my 20 milers on the road just to give me confidence that my legs will hold up.

  • hi all, it's the weekend, yippee!  Well done you guys who went running in the rain today, it's freezing out there.  My schedule said rest or cross train, I did a spin session, first one of the year, hoping it will be a good cross trainer to build thigh strength.   Does anyone else use spin as a cross trainer?

     AA - hope you are feeling better soon!  I know how frustrating it is when you are ill and can't get out to train.

     I shall be doing my long run tomorrow morning nice and early, before having a wisdom tooth pulled out, then probably spending the rest of the weekend on the couch.

     Happy training everyone image

  • CG - well done on the 20 in the snow. I'm another fan of long runs off road.
  • Dubai Dave wrote (see)

    Minni: I have just pulled my copy of P & D off the shelf, what week are we on?

    DD  We are on week 4, so if your book counts down, as mine does, I'll be starting week 13 on Monday.  I have a bit on a dilemma next week and the week after.   I have the chance to do a 12 mile fell race a week on Sunday (this will be at the end of week 13).  The schedule has a 16 mile run on that day with 10 at marathon pace.  Because of work committments I cannot fit in a 16 on any other day next week.  The following week I have a half marathon on the Sunday (the end of week 12).  That should be a 12 mile anyway.   Should I do a 16 that Sunday and give the fell race a miss, or could the fell race be as tough as a 16 mile road run.  I've got a 15 planned for this Sunday and could make that a bit longer.

    Dubai Dave wrote (see)

    Minni: I have just pulled my copy of P & D off the shelf, what week are we on?

    Lake: I used to love my large evening meal right to a couple of months ago and indeed I still ocassionally indulge, but put simply your body doesn't need a large meal before its going to sleep.  There is a lot of stuff about nutrition in all the IM books I'm presently reading and it goes into quite a bit more depth than any of the running books I've read but there again not many runners go beyond a marathon or 3-5 hours of running, 10 -17 hours of intense effort is a different story. Indeed it was only when I worked out by trial and error a sensible and workable nutrition plan that I cracked the sub 9 hours at Comrades on my 4th attempt.
    caterpillar girl wrote (see)
    Minni - I intend to do most of my long runs off road and not be concerned by pace. I will probably run 2 of my 20 milers on the road just to give me confidence that my legs will hold up.
     So you stick to the mileage.  You're a good advert for off road training with your good race times.

     AA wise not to push it if your chest is still bad.  I had to take my inhaler during the run today because the cold was really getting to me. 

    CG 20 miles off road, in the snow, in 3:15 sounds really fast to me.  You must be really strong on the hills. The postman -  I remember at the end of the marathon a few years ago you looked perfect and I looked  a wreck!  I've still got one of the photos!

    Kiwi - I spinned a bit last year.  I fainted after my first session - I should have rehydrated with water, not wine!  I find it a really hard workout.  I won't be doing it this year because the sessions don't fit into life.  What is your long run tomorrow?  Wise to do it before having your tooth extracted! 

     Lake I was lucky with my run this morning.  It was bright but cold (-8).  Freezeing rain is the worst. 

    What's the weekly mileage everyone's doing at the moment? And what do you aim to go up to? 

  • Minni: I would do the fell race and the 1/2 marathon, the fell run will be tougher than 16 on the road and any race is likely to make you work harder than you would on your own so the intensity will be higher anyway. To my mind schedules are a guideline not cast in stone, as mentioned over on the "other" thread some schedules are so vague as to be virtually useless, what does brisk mean? Fortunately P & D don't fall into that category and they are a excellent guideline but there is no reason why you can't change them around a bit.

  • DD - 4 times doing comrades??  In 9 hours???  Wow, amazing.  I did a 52m ultra last year (in about 10.5 hrs) but Comrades must be amazing.  What other exotic races have you done?

    Minni - you've got me looking at week 13 of P&D now, thinking whether I should tweak my schedule closer to that, although with less mileage as I'm not ready for that yet.   Hmmmm.

    Just an easy 4m for me tonight, bringing me up to (a slow) 35m this week.

    kiwi - hope the tooth came out alright....I had three taken out in one go by a very inept dentist who did such a poor job (with his pliers while the nurse held my head) he put stitches in the holes and sent me away.  Only to phone me at 8.30pm at home to ask if I was alright. 

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