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RW Forum Six - Sub 3:30
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2old - Suppose it varies, I've known some knock out 2 decent maras a week apart but don't think they would have been both maximum efforts. I ran a 3:15 and a 3:18, 5 weeks apart a couple of years ago, the second one was going to be quicker but it hit hard at 23 miles.
Fazza - That's a big ask jumping from 3:30 to sub 3, a lot will depend on your natural ability at distance running. What's your best time for HM? You'll be need to be around 1:25 or better to get near to 3 at full distance with the right training.
After breakfast [it was still dark] the route became a bit of a war of attrition. The next four stages covering about 25 miles went something like this:
Climb steeply out of checkpoint [about 1,500 ft each time], walk along boggy, uneven ridge for miles, slither down steep stony track to checkpoint and then repeat!! At around 63 miles dawn broke and my companion and I split up as I felt she was going rather faster than I was and I didn't want to hold her back [although she said she didn't mind]. After a mind numbing 2.5 miles of bog / mud along the ridge above the 72 mile checkpoint I was starting to feel pretty tired and my quads were simply refusing to go over stiles. I found myself attempting to launch myself at a stile like a guided [or possibly unguided] missile in the hope that I might manage to slither across it somehow.
On the next stony descent I managed to trip over a small concrete bar across the path and found myself in the air and heading groundward face first. My first thought was that I was going to lose my front teeth as I was heading for a face plant on the stones, but just managed to get my hands out thus reprieving the teeth, but taking the skin off both hands and one knee plus winding myself badly enough to require a 10 minute wait before feeling able to set off again. It then went from bad to worse. I think I was over-using my ankles to try and stay upright [given the parlous state of my quads] so they eventually started to give out and I was going over on them at regular intervals - the net result today is a very colourful swollen right ankle, which strangely doesn't seem to hurt, although that may be because all the other pain is masking it
2 more falls and a lot of swearing got me to 90 miles where I found my erstwhile night companion almost in tears. She had gone wrong on the navigation and was feeling completely fuzzy and out of it, so we agreed to stay together for the rest of the route as I was [at least mentally] feeling OK. We were really looking forward to a blast along a flat canal path for 4 miles - but guess what? It was stony!!!!!! This was the final straw and turned sore feet into shredded feet for me and many others. However we did make good time and were soon setting off on the last section.
I will draw a discreet veil over this part. About a mile from the finish we had a climb of about 800 ft on a steep, slippery, rocky path
BUT we made it and were given a big welcome as only 3 people had managed to finish before us.
So to summarise: Sitting at the finish I found I couldn't get my shoes off?? A blister had burst and my sock had stuck to the gunge coming out of the blister and then the insole of the shoe had stuck to the sock
. Finally managing to get the shoe off I sat with my feet, still wearing socks, in a bowl of warm water to try and get the foot and sock to separate, but in the end I had to resign myself to the loss of a large amount of skin on the sole of my foot. Its amazing how good it feels to be sitting down after 100 miles, but also how quickly you forget how hard it was and before you know it you are planning the next one. The woman at reception at the Premier Inn watched my shuffle across the carpet dropping mud in all directions and then sadistically told me our room was the one right at the end of the corridor [perhaps fortunately not upstairs!]. Shower and bed, to be woken at 4.45am with a text from BA to say he had finished at 2.45am but that I wasn't to come and get him until I had had some sleep.
I though my feet were bad, but his are atrocious - however he is really chuffed at having finished another one after a few retirements. he had to take the day off work as he can barely put his feet to the ground and can't get any shoes on. My feet are still disgusting but I am sitting in the office in bare feet frightening away any troublesome students
. Couldn't cycle to work today as I couldn't actually get cycle shoes on or get my leg over the bar 
So 32 hundred mile events clocked up and West Lancashire here we come. Not racing this weekend so plenty of time for the feet to heal before the Midlands relays. Looks like some great racing over the weekend, will read back properly now the rush of students is dying down for the day
Hi everyone, lots of racing going on.
DD - a great time for a 9a marathon there - but your mate was chuffed too.
Well done Barry on your mara too - sounds like a tough course.
Speedy 10-miler Cooks.
Cracking Parkrun AA.
FRC and O4S - congrats on your crazy ultra antics!
kfc - shame your race didn't go to plan - it's horrible when you realise you've set off too fast and it's too late to do anything about it - but a decent placing all the same
Excellent HM Carrot - so close to that sub-1:30
Fazza - Well done on your marathon time. I agree the times the others have said are in the right ballpark, although I'd say you'd need more like 1:22-23 for HM to stand a chance of sub-3. As for how to get there, it depends on what you're doing at the moment. If your mileage is relatively low and you're already doing speed work, I'd disagree that it's all to do with tempos, intervals etc, but rather with building your mileage.
Also, 3:30 to sub-3 is a big leap so be prepared to take your time. This lot would probably disagree as they're obsessed with running marathons
but I'd suggest focusing on getting your HM time down before you think about chasing that sub-3.
But then my mara PB is 4:06 so what do I know?
O4S- a short comment about that ultra really doesn't do it justice though I just sit here read it in disbelief and think I'm only playing at this running hobby. Outstanding. Oh yes where are you in West Lancs? That's my home turf and Simons bike route.
Yes Darren what do you know about fast running
2Old, Dubai Dave, Barry B
Thanks for the responses, my HM PB is 1:40 but that was going up 700ft wrotham hill during marathon training. I have never tried to run a quick HM all of them have just been part of my long runs for VLM training if that makes sense. I should also mention that I started VLM in Pen 5 and spent the first 20mi weaving and overtaking hence my actual distance was 27.0 mi (my last mile I ran 7:24) so Barry I reckon its more like 20 mins I need to knock off.
I have decided that this summer I will scrap the sunday long runs to focus on running shorter distances more quickly, would you agree that's a good focus? I am doing Parkruns every sat, got that down to 19:21 so far ,a down 10k Thurs night , got that to 41.35 so far
OMFG: O4S that sounds pretty darn hardcore!
DD: nice result in North Dorset
Barry: another marathon in the bag
Carrot & AA - truly back in the game
I've had to cancel my mile race tonight as my tooth is still giving me gypp. Hopefully will be ok for my first tri on Sunday. I did get out on the bike on Sunday for 30miles @ an easy 16.5 mph so I think my bike fitness is still ok. And the swim leg is just 400m.
O4S: nuts but amazing, congrats.
Darren: i agree that endurance is also important, but if the speed aint there endurance wont help.
Ant: you can doggy paddle 400M. Enjoy but beware tri is a slippery slope.
Fazza: with that 10K time you have a lot if work to do, i ran a 40 min10k last year but haven't got below 3-23. Having said that 2Old got to 3-09 off a 40 min 10K.
DD - good pubs you say? I'm in for 2015!
O4S - epic as ever!! I am always so impressed by your Ultra exploits.... hope recovering ok!
Fazza - obviously it depends on the individual and I think that a big factor is pure endurance levels and how easily you can 'convert' shorter times into marathon performance. With me, I started off as a bad converter (2012 3.25mara off of a 1.24 HM) but I have built up better endurance through cumulative mileage particularly with regular long runs (now 3.08 mara pb off of a 1.25 HM). However, I have a buddy that ran a 3.07 off of a 1.29 HM, so it is really individualistic. Now that I've built up my endurance base, I'll be concentrating on proper speed work and lactate threshhold sessions as I think I need to improve that before I can get close to 3 hours and (pretty much in line with DD & Daren), I'm targeting a 1.22 HM & 18m flat 5k as benchmarks to see if I'm in the right place for Abo come Oct......
2Old Nice LR there
Well done with the 10 miler Cooks
O4S love your race report - you are a legend & congratulations to you & BA for completing a tough course
eek to the blister!
No running today as we are celebrating our daughter's birthday. Planning to go out tomorrow but I have to confess I've lost a little bit of confidence.
O4S - Congrats to you and BA, awesome as always.
Fazza - Only 20 mins then that's OK
. Your 5K shows you have some speed, how long have you been running? My first marathon was 3:21 and 11 more have only got me down to 3:15, as others have said a lot depends on your natural ability and mental strength. I think it was Also Ran off the 3:15 thread who went well under 3 hours on his second marathon after he had n't been running long.
Ant - that's a decent easy speed on the bike, I struggle to hit 15 mph, what speed do you go at race day?
Swimming practice again this morning and kinda enjoying it. Off to the physio soon, need to sort my aches out, I fancy a run tomorrow.
Barry - The only triathlon race i have done on the bike was at Dorney lake and I clocked 20mph average, but that was flat. I guess I am looking for around 18mph on Sunday.
All this sub 3 talk. Eek. I am hoping to get sub 3:15 first! And think I need to go under 1:30 for the half in autumn to achieve that.
Fazza, yes, I think it's a good idea to focus on getting your short distance times down over the summer, but I wouldn't totally drop the long runs, as endurance and aerobic fitness is important, even over 5k and 10k. Plus, your 5k time is better than your 10k or HM, suggesting your speed is better than your endurance at this stage. Why not run a long run every 2-3 weeks instead, just to maintain the marathon endurance you've gained, while still leaving plenty of time to focus on the intervals and tempos needed to improve over the shorter distances?
Cooks, that's an interesting approach, re: going back to focusing on speed for your autumn marathon. I'll be interested to see how it goes. I've always considered myself more of a speed, than endurance guy, but actually I've found my paces getting much closer since I've been doing the higher-mileage work and have wondered whether I'll need to focus on speed again at some point (I've taken more than 20 secs per mile off my HM pace, while my 5k pace has stayed roughly the same - on the race time predictors my 5k and HM are now almost a perfect match). I'm worried I'm turning into Minni
Darren; dont worry your to young to be a Minni clone
Cooks: i reckon the speed approach will work
Ant; hills can slow you down dramatically on a bike. I can do a 40K tri bike leg in about 63 mins on the flat, the same distance on the hills around here is nearer 90 mins.
40 miles on the bike today, will run tomorrow.
DD - yeah I hear you
I will try not to kill myself on the bike as there is a small matter of a run after it!
HI 2old/Pink, yes, I never had a drink problem until I started running.....now I'm a lightweight ;0) I suppose the calf is ok now then 2ol, after running 16 miles at that pace. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall at the physio when you revealed that one!
Hi carrot, Well done on the HM, not often the chip goes your way! Wasn't that course short last year?
Nice PB on the 10 miler Cooks...
Hi DD, Interesting cycling the course after, yes I suppose there would be parts of the course that would be forgettable... and parts you'll never forget!
Hi O4S, Amazing! Great report, Hope the feet recover for your relays
Hi Ant, Bad news on the tooth kicking back in ;0(
Hi Fazza, What about running a local smaller marathon in the autumn? That way you will not get caught up in crowds etc, and it could give you a better idea what time you are going from to achieve sub 3. I know you mentioned you ran 7:24 in the last mile, but the rest of the marathon you would have been running about 8:00mm for a 3:32 finish, which may be the reason you had a bit more in the locker...just a thought
7 mile hill reps yesterday morning and then a trip to the physio later. Got my final massage before the marathon and on leaving the physio advised to stay away from anyone with a sniffle (lurgy going around at the moment), blow me haven't I got a sore throat now!
I am getting the runny nose also already, so hopefully it one that passes quickly...
7 mile run this morning, took it easy and worked a bit harder on the hills running around 7:45-50mm. Popped into the gym later for some S+C.
Number through in the post yesterday, Red 1219, my lucky number!
Daren - I'm certainly hoping method to the madness. I find it a lot easier to keep going at a reasonable pace towards the end of the longer distances nowadays but my actual speed has stagnated....... Only trouble is that the quicker stuff is so uncivilised
Am really looking fwd to seeing how you get on in the Autumn - a stonking pb I'll wager! Did you have a 10k at the w/e?
10k is this coming Saturday, Cooks.
Daren- target for the 10k ?
nell- now you know it's for real seeing your no. The calf seems fine thanks
Cooks- it's not stagnated I worry about ..it's the annual age related rapid decline. Only O4S seems to buck that trend
busy day- travelled back from London. Meeting. Home. Half hour spinning followed by. 4.1 miles in 30mins. Food. Swim session - 1.8k. Think I will sleep well tonight.
There seems to be a few races this weekend. Anyone going to put together a llist?
Best of luck for Sat the Daren - I predict a smokin' time!
20ld - thanks for that, another thing to factor in!
Seriously tho, I'm not concerned as yet as think I have 5 years to have a reasonable chance of hitting my goals but can't wait that long to have a go at an ultra!
FRC - well done on the Malvern hills 52. Fantastic running.
O4S - Loved your report, magnificient achievement. Really well done.
Barry - well done on the marathon. You got a great time on tough sounding course.
Nell - I raced a HM 2 weeks before VLM. If you do race it then make sure you start recovery as soon as the race finishes. I did a mile cool down and got something to eat soon after.
AA - speedy parkrun
DD - good work at the North Dorset Marathon. Your pal must have been delighted with his pb.
kfc - tough sounding race. Good placing though.
Carrot- that's a very good HM. Well done.
2old - that's very fast for a long run.
Cooks - well done on a very fast 10m race. I like your plan of intervals and lactate threshold. I will be following a similar approach. My immediate priority is get my 5k time down a bit.
Daren - good luck on Saturday.
Fazza - getting your half close to 1:23 would be a good indicator of sub 3.
Not really any target 2Old - just as fast as I can! Looks like it could be a wet, windy one.
Got my new shoes, joined the gym and had a specialist appointment for my hip. Been diagnosed as a problem with the hip socket and muscles surrounding. Most probably caused by the fact my office floor is subsiding and I sit on an angle because of it. Working on getting this put right at the moment. And intense course if physio is to follow to get it put right, along with gym work and pilates. And I can still run! Yipee!
Nell - the forecast isn't looking good for Saturday....
Just back from A&E having taken BA with infected blisters on his feet and hot swollen lower legs. Diagnosis: lower leg cellulitis in both legs, sent home to rest with legs elevated for 5 days and 2 types of extra strength antibiotics (and that's just for me
)
i was told I needed to do everything for him - so no change there then!!!!!!
Daren - Good luck for tomorrow, hope the weather is kind.
Minni - Which shoes did you get? Good news you can still run, sorry could n't resist is a "lady week" a typo or a euphemism?
O4S - Sounds serious for BA, I'm sure you will give him all the care he needs.
Nell - Get on the First Defence if needed, is the HM tomorrow?
2old - Good tri training session.
A minor breakthrough at swimming practice yesterday, eldest daughter came along and maybe some of her swimming talent came my way, after my drills I attempted a length of my front crawl(catch up) and made it all the way. Followed by 3 more, obviously with some rest inbetween, but very happy.
First run since last Sunday this morning, 5 miles slow and legs OK.
Minni- good to see you are sorting out that pesky hip. Hope the HM goes well
O4S- aren't those injuries just niggles in your case. I'm wondering what the DR said to you though I'm sure it will have fallen on deaf ears
Barry- won't be long before you swim your first mile. Amazed how quick your legs recovered
10miles at av7.27 mm last night. Chester races in the torrential rain today.
O4S - amazing effort from you and BA. Sounds like he has really run himself into the ground...hope he gets better quickly.
Daren - good luck for the 10k
Minni - good news with the hip, hopefully the physio and everything else will sort it out.
Missing running...
oops Barry! I was posting that from some sort of quad crunching machine in the gym! Of course I meant 'last' week.
I went for the Saucony Kinvara. I worn them last night for a 4 miler but will stick to my usual ones for the race tomorrow.
Freemers - what's the lastest with your injuries?
O4S - poor BA. That sounds painful.