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RW Forum Six - Sub 3:30
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Minni - tried your test. Weird.
I didn't run last night
I got drunk instead 
It was cold, wet and snowing so I tucked up warm with the CNBA fairy and the OH 
A threesome perhaps? 
Hope you manage to get home ok minni, I was hoping to go to the track today (for the first time after enjoying it so much on Friday), but it might be weather permitting!
Minni - How far do you live from work, when we had snow last year I ran in and ran home but its only 3.5 miles.
Practice.....
I struggle with drinks the night before nowadays but many years ago I worked for the sponsors of the Great North Run and so got a free place and the night before we stayed in the same hotel as the elites.
We met them in the bar - they were on orange juice and ...well...we weren't. Drinks were all on the company and we were about 23 so not a clever situation
Got to bed absolutely slaughtered at 4am and had to be on the bus to get to the start at 6!
Managed a 1:27. In the VIP tent afterwards the winner of the race Rob De Castella (google him if you've never heard of him) came over to congratulate us for finishing. he couldn't believe that we even made the bus when he saw us getting on in the morning. Even more so when he heard our times.
Oh the benefit of youth
Sadly, now I can't run at all after a night on the beer
I'll confess to doing a few LSRs on a hangover, but never raced with one (yet). We were very good before the Town Moor - one beer
. Can't say how many afterwards 
Becs - congratulations on your news
I think I got away with the lack of a shower yesterday - no one commented, or maybe they were just being polite? Anyway I can say that the showers are OK today so will be going out for a little jaunt later.
I just don't understand the logic of 2.20 man entering this competition. He must be coached, so his current coach isn't going to want the RW coaches overuling him surely? Anyway, no sign of a thread from him yet, and if he doesn't engage with people he'll never get the votes.
Becs congrats on the impending.
Beers and races - one beer the night before seems to be good - dunno about more than that!
Am modifying my marathon plan and thinking about only doing 3 x 20 but putting a whole stack of long runs incorporating PMP. Decisions decisions - seems like a big call, but the weight of evidence does seem to be turning.
Blimey, that female runner's tale is rather disconcerting. I have a taser, maybe I should reactivate it and carry it with me, just in case
. Generally the hangover improves after running. It may sometimes involve throwing up into the bushes though 
Lots of snow here too. I will leave work early and get my run in the snow in. Looking forward to that. Had a bad night: mum ended up in hospital after collapsing in the sauna. She bumped her head and needed stitching. She's fine now but hell, that gave me a fright!
Becs: many congrats on your engagement
AntP: MP is all important. Try and get as much in as you can. I'm sure it helped me to crack 3:30 much more than speedwork or tempo runs.
Oompa: wow, your new clubmate sounds well scary. Glad your run was pain-free.
I've had a few rough races and runs after a night on the lash but never before an A race
Chick - She IS scary! A bit of cyber-staking revealed she finished 15th in her age group at IM world champs!!!
HHO I would love to be that good!
When I did the coastal run this year a friend of mine had drank far too much wine the night before. She couldnt stomach breakfast and looked dreadful around the course....its kind of put me off having a load before a race but Ive found one bottle of fruit cidar the night before helps...had one before my 10k and 1/2 PB's! Ive been drunk the night before a training run, was ok for the first half but then suffered mid way and ended up laid out in the woods...that was over a year ago now though...learnt from that little mistake!
DS2 you was hard core!
barry - 20 miles but a section of that is on the A1 so wouldn't fancy running it in the snow. I have run it several other times though.
I'm on the wagon for now.
off to buy some fruit cider .... I have a 10k on Sunday
Just filled in the blanks on Jantastic and starting to plan my Spring races and this has thrown up a question...
I normally run the Tunbridge Wells half (hilly - good training) in Feb and then a few weeks later do the Paddock Wood half (dead flat - new pb potential), which normally happens just before the taper for VLM. However, this year PW half is on 7th April... Only two weeks before VLM.
Should i risk it, or is it too close for comfort???
Oompa- I wouldn't race a half two weeks before VLM, I think it's a bit close.
Lots of LSRs and recovery runs done with a hangover but haven't yet attempted racing on one. But hey- it's all carbs after all...
DS2- very impressed with your exploits
.
Sarah and DS2- when do you find out if you've been chosen?
Simon- I will be trying not to break any ribs in Whistler
. I have never attempted running while on a skiing holiday but I will have to find a way.
Simon- I'm skiing in Peisey France, hope to do a few days cross country as there are 158km of ski trails. I was thinking of running on the spot for 10 minutes each night to emulate a 1 mile run for Jantastic, would that be ok or cheating? I'm worried about this now!
DD- Good luck in your race tomorrow
Spoons- There no excuses not to run! Zip up your mansuit and get out there.
Minni- Good luck on getting home tonight, can you send the snow this way please.
Ant- Have you kept to the same schedule for your marathons? If so and your times are almost the same I would say yes for changing it. Although I love running marathons I find the long runs in training hard, more of a mental block, I like the idea of what you may try.
Chick- Hope your Mum is ok, did they find out why she collapsed in the first place?
Oompa, A bit close? A hilly 20-25 miler I did last year is on the 7th too rather than 1st and thinking the same thing, last 20+ long run end of March 30th/31st.
and those pesky IM Tri people are just irritating, was running with one at the club and his time in the marathon section was sub 3:30. so unfair!
Ant, unlike Chic, I didn't do loads of marathon pace in my long runs. in fact hardly any apart from one event. Lots on 8-12 mile tempo runs, and often faster than PMP. Different strokes.. 5 x 20m also.. as per Jedi Master Shaggy instructions.
Chick, Gazelle & FRC - re PMP and schedules. I have done different schedules each year, so I'm always trying something new. I have taken 10+ mins off each time, so I suppose something is working. I plan on doing more speed work this time and on top of the PMP will also do LT and interval work.
I plan my own schedule
and the thing about the 20 milers is that that they really dominate your schedule if you put 5 of them in and you can't fit as much PMP in there if you want to stay on the conservative side of avoiding injury anyway.
Currently it includes 3 20 milers - with one of them a 20 mile race including 10+ miles of PMP. In addition I am including a load of slightly shorter LRs including segments of PMP building up to that 10 mile PMP and back down again. My understanding is that it is total weekly mileage not the number of 20 milers that give you the best endurance training - well, we'll see!
Oompa - agree with the others, I would not do a HM so close to the marathon. I won't even do a 20 in the last month this time round...
Ant - its both but don''t underestimate the value of the 20 milers. I think its not until you have a very, very good endurance base that you can then look at doing fewer 20 miles, but even then perhaps just for one training period. When not marathon training my long run each week is 16 miles and this has really improved my endurance base.
Look at the splits of your last marathons. If you keep an even pace throughout then that would show your endurance is quite good, if however, you start to slow in the last 6 then you need to continue with those 20 milers I'm afraid.
My schedule also changes with each marathon - its the only way to improve.
Minni - I think one of the problems with doing 5 20 milers is the opportunity cost: because you do them, there are other things you can't do. I want to try something different. I know that the number of 20 milers is meant to improve endurance, but there are examples even on this thread where banging out the 20 milers doesn't mean you won't fade at the end. Its all about having endurance at your planned pace. FTR - my splits were pretty much even last time round.
But we're all an experiment of 1 in the end!
Bro & FRC - Thanks... Sort of confirmed what i was thinking.
Minni & Ant - What's PMP?
I've bitten the bullet this year as the OH is getting me the P&D book, so i'm planning to follow one of their schedules but as i keep hearing that they do not have many LSR's in the programme, i'll do 5 x 20+ miles.
Ant - Sorry, x-post. I managed a completely uninjured programme last Spring and did 5 x 20 - 22 mile runs and ran a negative split marathon. Admittedly part of this was down to being chronically held up in the first 8 miles or so, but i still had plenty left at the end and feel i could have got close to a GFA sub-3.15 time, so i really think that as Minni says, the 20+ runs are invaluable for endurance.
Oompa - sorry, jargontastic: PMP = planned marathon pace.
And as Oompa says, P&D don't agree with the 5 x 20m
Anyway its not as if I am planning on not doing plenty of long runs, provisionally I have 3 x 20m in there, along with 6 x 16m incorporating PMP.
We'll see if the approach works in April
Ant its great that you have realised that there is no "correct" way of training for a marathon, I like 5 x 20+ runs with at least the last 6 miles at MP if the marathon is important to me but if its a B marathon 3 x 20 or less will do. When I did the 3 in 3 days i only ran 2 x 20 milers in training but did come of the back of IM training. Endurance can undoubtedly built from training other than running, swimming has to be the hardest workout of all. The proff will be in the pudding
Minni: Talking of swimming you seem to have stopped!
Racing tomorrow but not 100%, sore throat, slightly ruuny nose. No where near sick enough to stop me running but probably sick enough fro me not to give it full welly, lets see how I feel at 0400 Argh.......
MP is important, preferably towards the end of your long runs. But don't underestimate the importance of slower running. You need slow running to build the aerobic engine.
Also - never do long runs in a rested state. Ideally you would race a park run on the Saturday and do the long run on the Sunday on tired legs. Do the long run really slowly and then do the last 5 miles or so at MP.
Spoons- really? I always do them in a rested state, unless I'm hangover
.
Dancing on tables until 4am doesn't count Brolish
I'm off to do 2 x 20 minutes of Kenyan hills with 2 minutes recovery. If I don't come back it's because I died....
DD - the swimming has gone back in the back burner! It's down to lack of time more than anything else. It's still something I'd like to do.