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IMHO, the only thing that a father can't do is breastfeed. If a father wants to, he can provide all the emotional support etc that a mother can, maybe not in the same way, but there's no reason why a father can't support and bring up a child just as well as a mother.
For many fathers - absent or otherwise - it seems that it's a matter of choice.
Neither parent is "necessary" - plenty of people of both genders bring their children up very successfully alone due to divorce, bereavement, other reasons.
To have two good ones is the best you could ask for. A really crap one is probably worse than an absent one.
Couldn't have put it any better. It pretty much summed up what I was going to say.
LB you know our "stories" about "home" are quite similar, and my dad and I had an awful relationship up until well maybe 10 years ago. The fact that I only see them once a year probably helps... but now that he's getting older and frailer, he's actually mellowed out a bit... And I think I changed too. There comes a point when you need to stop blaming your parents. Today I can see that my own father's upbringing involved much violence and little warmth and affection. Consequently he had no idea how to show or communicate any feelings. In some ways he was a victim of his parentage in the same ways that I was later... but you move on don't you... if you can -- and make the best of a bad situation. We all kind of get on alright now as long as we don't spend too much time in an enclosed space, and steer away from any controversal subjects... LOL
Looking at that "gentleman" in the article... he's reminiscent of many of our social services service users who go round breeding like rabbits, with their kids ending up in sink estate single mum households, foster care or residential care. This is compounded by the fact that a lot of those girls think that having a baby will give some sort of meaning to their life...
Do children need fathers?? It's such a loaded question isn't it... Looking at Elton John's arrangement, you could ask "do children need mothers??" With some people paying such close attention to celebrity culture, I wonder what effect that will have on some people's idea of parenting... Elton John, Michael Jackson's 'donor mother', Madonna shopping for babies in poor countries... kids as the new commodity...
Decent parents are needed whether male or female I suppose. But does it even have to be a 'parent'? IMHO my grandmother did a better job than my parents put together...
Like I said... a very loaded question.
Amen x 10.
And Amen too to Wilkie's "A really crap one is probably worse than an absent one."
My own father was not spectacularly bad .... just away a lot, a bit weak ... and there will be the occasional moment at work, in the office, where maybe I react in a meeting in a way that's not as good as it might have been, show not enough leadership, fail to call someone on some piece of bullshit, whatever .... and there is a connection there. We're not talking about major drastic problems. Just niggles.
If you know about things like that in yourself, you can work round them.
And it's nothing to do with whether I like him, or whether we get on now. It's about what I learned from him when I was aged up to say 12.
And I do find similar in a lot of men I talk with... they are dishonest in tiny ways with their partner, or at work, or prone to addiction to one thing or another, just as most of us are. And it is about their parenting.
Blaming a parent for something like that is like blaming them because you're not very tall. There is indeed a technical connection, but it's better to let it go.
Mike,
What you said about finding bits of parental traits shining through in yourself, and managing that when it happens, really resonated with me.
I can see how certain traits have become more and more "diluted" through 3 generations... My father's father was a violent man and my dad had the belt and everything... in comparison to his own dad he was probably a darn site warmer and less aggressive, but still prone to lash out. That "potential for temper" in me... I know it's there, and when cornered it can rear its ugly head, but I use my mouth rather than violence, but can be just as hurtful... But I guess you develop that insight and try to manage yourself accordingly.
Wonder what Elton John would make of this question?
The bloke obviously seems to be a proud parent and care for the new child in his life,. He has the wealth to give the child a very good life and provide for all its needs other than possibly a mothers influence which is as much a debatable question as the one asked at the start of this thread.
Considering the evidence that Elton Johns child is not going to want for anything and have a very good life, do you consider that a mother influence is a secondary consideration or not even required?
In answer to the original question, I'd say YES.
I've been very lucky to have a brilliant Dad, and I hope now that I've just become a first-time dad I can hopefully be a good dad to my daughter.
Lets look at in pure financial terms from a largely male perspective.
Well, if I was 19 and was to impregnate another 19 year old in 2011 it would be far tougher for me to stick around than if I was to have done it in 1971
In 1971 if I’d have probably have had a job at 19, would have been able to afford to pay council rent or even help stick down a deposit on a small house. Unless I was particularly poorly paid, this council rent would probably be no more than a quarter of one person’s take home pay. Unemployment was running at 3.5%* (And people were worried about that!) Youth unemployment was virtually non-existent and bear in mind, the vast majority of kids left school at 15. If I was an apprentice I’d be just about coming to the end of my time and would be free to choose an employer who payed a living wage. If I was a student I’d be receiving a grant and if I could stick it out for two years I’d be almost guaranteed a life of relatively high pay and job security as a graduate.
So, in financial terms I’d be a good investment for any potential partner and would have a relatively predictable future of employment to support kids through their first 16 years of life...
If I was 19 and in employment I’d be very lucky. With youth unemployment currently running at 25% in the UK and 1 million unemployed between the ages of 16-25. Always bearing in mind that 70% of kids (16-18) are in full time education and many work part time to sustain this. If I was at university I’d be running up an extraordinary amount of debt with no guarantee of a well paid career at the end of my course. But lets just imagine I’m one of the lucky ones with a well paid job. I’d probably still be living with my parents (85% of kids of 19 not at university or in the armed forces still live with their parents... compared to 55% in 1974 - no figure for 1971) Though, the likelihood is I’d be on the national minimum wage - which at the low rate it is at, would exclude a single person from everything but the most basic accommodation... council houses will soon be a thing of the past and I’ll be meat and drink for the buy to let sector. If I find myself in that sector I’ll most likely be paying half of the take home pay of one person in rent to pay someone else’s mortgage. It’s likely that (Should I wish to and be able to) I’ll be in my 30s before I’d be able to save for the deposit for a small house. If the interest rates go up - so does my rent. Most independent economic commentators expect interest rates to start rising very shortly.
Given the state of the economy we have now, It’s likely that I’ll have periods of unemployment, probably retraining and an uncertain future compared to the 19 year old of 1971. (Boy... are they in for a shock!) With the NHS being dismantled, it’s likely in the future that I’ll have to pay some sort of health insurance and if we look at the American example - the amount will be between 15-25% of my gross pay (Unless the insurance is paid by my employer and then don’t dare get sick if you’re unemployed at any time, or you’ll spend the rest of your working life paying off the debt you accrue!)
On the other hand, the benefit system, as it is; is a more attractive prospect than entering into a committed relationship with the above uncertainty... and even though benefits are paid at an extraordinary low level compared to much of the rest of Europe - at least they are regular and at least they allow you to plan.
You might argue that we should reduce these benefits with immediate effect - after all you are paying them out of your taxes... if it encourages people to remain on benefits... well they’re not doing the job they were originally intended... and I have to say, there is some validity in this argument. The problem being that paying benefits to sustain childcare at home costs far less than the state or private sector directly looking after the kids of the low paid, the unemployed or the feckless - and if you impoverish people to the extent they can’t look after their kids - that's what you'll be facing; many more children being taken into care and a higher tax burden to pay for it.
I’d strongly argue that from a financial perspective alone - dads should be a part of a family unit or at least contribute to the financial support of their kids- and being an economic determinist, I’d suggest that if we fix the economy... and nurture policies with full employment as the focal point, instead of this insane obsession with the free market - we fix the family.
Of course; there are many other factors at play here, such as, culture, feminism, life expectations, freedom etc... and it’s not as simple as all that... is it?
*All figures taken from the UK ONS
i think children need positive role models in their life, be it mother, father, grandparents, older siblings or even their parents partners.
the words mother and father just mean to me their biological parents that were their to help with your birth. i grew up with my grand parents since a baby, and they were great role models to me. my parents were separated and later on my father died while i was still young. I don't feel i have missed anything from not knowing him very well as I knew my grand dad and he was the best "dad" a girl could have.
It would be great in an ideal world or situation for children to grow up with both biological parents, to be nurtured and feel loved by them, but if children are still receiving that nurture from someone else, being taught valuable life lessons from those caring adults, isn't that enough or sufficient?
Father of 2 and absolutely devoted to them, as I'm sure all of you are to your children. Do they need me? I like to think so, it would certainly cut very deeply if they didn't because I definitely need them, so I'm in the "We need Dads" camp on this one.
I think just because people can have children, it doesn't make them good parents.
They are plenty of devoted fathers out there but others just see it as a pick & choose situation.
Ah Corinth, I spent my childhood vowing I wouldn't have kids because of mine. In case it was genetic
I and my brother havent, my sister has and she is a fantastic parent.
My grandmother however was the most amazing person on earth
My granddad was brilliant too
My father walked out on my Mum just before I was born (nice man) and I was raised (and adopted) by her second husband, (who's wife incidently was the woman my Father left my Mum for). The second husband I called Dad from the outset, I adored him. He was a wonderful man and many of the things that make me "me" I got from him. I would be a much less interesting person if he hadn't been around.
When I was in my late teens, Mum and Dad separated. Despite not having a biological connection, we remained very very close. And then he met his new wife, a vile insecure women who set about removing him from all his family. I know Dad would have been complicit in this too, but either way, I've not spoken to him in 10 years. I miss him everyday. It's like he's died, but I can't grieve.
A few years ago, I met my Father, my Mum's first husband. He is not a patch on my Dad.
So, yes, I think kids need a Dad. He just doesn't necessarily need to be their biological Father
Some very sad stories here
and also proof of tremendous love and strength of character. ((( ))) to anyone who feels the need.
Edited typo
Lots of stories similar to mine but its also lovely to read the comments from those with loving, supportive parents. Gives a cynical old boot like me hope!
Dad was largely absent or buried in the engine of some clapped out bike, mum just wasn't the maternal type and eventually (after they split) turned to drink and beating the living shit out of me and my brother. Dad took off to 'find himself' and discovered that a ponytail and young Swedish wife was the way forward (she soon came to her senses). Throughout our entire lives my brother and I were regularly assured that our parents and their needs were the most important thing and that we should feel thoroughly ashamed of ourselves for intruding in to what could have been their lives.
Its been said already and I wholeheartedly agree that crap parents are far more damaging than absentee parents. My parents sent me to the brink of breakdown after I had my second child because I simply couldn't understand how any parent could treat their children so dreadfully. I've not had contact with either of them for 3 & 7 years and have no intention of changing that. My children are very lucky that their family on their dad's side is extensive and very supportive of them as on my side there's only me. I've seen how they have been able to thrive with the support of me and 'the outlaws' over the years and despite my personal issues with them I can only be grateful that they bring such love in to the lives of my kids.
I love my dad. I actually wouldn't say he was a 'great' dad when we were growing up; he was a very traditional bread-winning, show no emotion sort of dad. BUT he did a very good job of providing, taught us to strive for our best and not rely on other people and I always knew that he was a good person and that he loved me (even though he never said it). I had a very happy, carefree childhood.
My husband works away a lot and so we have talked about what impact his absence has on the kids. Our conclusion is 'none to speak of', but that's because they know where he is and when he's coming back, they know he loves them and they haven't been abandoned.
I know I could bring up my kids on my own if I had to, I can manage all the day to day practical stuff by myself, but they definitely benefit from having a loving dad, even when he's not physically here.
So, I suppose my answer to the question is no, they don't need a dad, but they will definitely benefit from the positive influence of a good dad (with the same applying to mums)
Mr LB came home last night from London.
Youngest Miss LB stood on the platform in freezing fog without a coat (don't ask - she's 10 and a fashion victim) waiting for him all Railway children style and ran up and down the length of the train to find him.
When he emerged she jumped into his arms and stayed locked there for what seemed like an age.
I never got a look in!
But that's OK. I answered my own question. I just amended it slightly.
"Do my children need their father"?
Absolutely.
I do wonder to what extent your relationship with your own dad affects your choices later in life too Slugsta?
I know my own choice was heavily influenced by my father. I chose someone who was the polar opposite. Hands on, non violent, openly loving etc. I didn't do it deliberately - more subconsciously.
My girls will have their work cut out finding someone like their daddy. I just hope they don't think all men are like that. My own mother had a fantastic father and she still ended up marrying my dad.
She admits now that she had unrealistic expectations of him because she thought all men were like HER dad and had never come across anyone who had been as screwed up as my father had been.
I guess all we can do is hope and pray that our own kids make the right decisions when their Prince Charming comes along. If he turns out to be an arse, Mr LB is likely to kill him.
NEED? No. then again you don't NEED a mum although being an orphan must be tough.
However I think it is desirable to have the dad around. I agree with the comments about better being absent than being there and a bad dad.
Also I guess if you had to choose then mum is more important than dad but I think dads absolutely have a role to play. I make sure I get to all parent evenings, take an active interest in what he is up to, talk about school work, get along to watch him doing his sport and also get involved in that although it is different to athletics which is my sport. Just means I am heavily involved with two sports but it can be interesting.
We parent as a couple and that is undoubtedly the ideal scenario but it can' t be ideal for everyone.
Steve is a great dad
Frankly, more dads should be like Steve.
Brooks, I don't necessarily agree with mum being more important. My ego would have me believe that I'm the driving force with my kids but reality likes to kick us all up the arse now and again.
Not quite sure how to explain it from my point of view as its incredibly complicated but despite the faults of my ex, which are not insubstantial, my children see his former faults and understand that they are purely between him and I. They are also able however to look beyond those faults and see that he adores them and would give his all to do right by them (regardless of how badly he conveys this). I have never been made to feel that they're not safe with him and would never deny them the relationship they have with him (I would have left the area long ago if this were the case). I'm also very lucky to have an incredibly sensitive OH who checks the balance between 'old school dad' and 'modern man' perfectly so the kids can see that its not all 'tackety bits and discipline' when it comes to being man of the house.
I should add their dad tells them several times a day that he loves them and is way more cuddly and emotionally open than me although not necessarily emotionally responsive/intuative (there's a huge difference imo). He's been quite ill lately which has been a huge worry for me as mum as I can see how much it distresses the kids. I get angry sometimes as feel he should make an effort for them but he can't seem to break his self perpetuating cycle of laziness/over eating. Ultimately though our kids will know that they have been loved by this man with faults, which I think is substantially more favourable than feeling the way I did throughout my entire childhood - completely irrelevant. They also love the fact that he has way more computers/games consoles than me and can fix absolutely anything provided they help.