Too Much Water Can Kill You!!!

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Comments

  • Amby - sorry to repeat myself but what are the symptoms?
  • I agree with every point you've just made, Amby. (Cheers for posting, BTW). What I really want to ask is; how much of a problem is hyponatraemia? It seems to have spent several years as something we knew could theoretically happen, if we didn't take care of ourselves (like crossing a road without checking for cars first) to something that seems to be so dangerous that it is striking down people left, right and centre, and we're next.

    I admit my back was put up by this site's homepage, with its "Water can kill you!" headline.

    BB

    P.S. I did wonder why all the ecstacy deaths all those years ago, were girls.

    P.P.S. A student once won a science prize for an essay about a substance that people could overdose on, and made a convincing case for banning it. The substance was di-hydrogen oxide. (See snopes.com).
  • Spans,

    Here's an overview:

    Symptoms of hyponatremia are fatigue, weakness, cramping, nausea, vomiting, bloating, swelling and tightness of the hands and feet, dizziness, headache, confusion, fainting, seizures, coma, and even death. The symptoms are very similar to heat injury, and for doctors, the clue to telling these two conditions apart is the core body temperature and blood work.

    How's that?

    oli roberts (RW Staff Writer)
  • Its that hydrogen hydroxide you all want to watch out for!
  • RE How big a threat is hyponatremia?
    * Relatively small. And most cases are mild, ie, certainly not fatal. However, worst cases can be fatal, which is not true of dehydration (more below).
    * At 2002 Boston Marathon, approx 13 percent of a researched runners group were hyponatremic at end. But none seriously so. Of course, there WAS a hyponatremic death at Boston in 02 and also at Marine Corps Marathon 02.
    * In some Ironman Triathlons, hyponatremia has exceeded 20 percent of finishers.
    * Again, most hyponatremics recover quite quickly with salt intake.
    * Perspective: Hyponatremia and heatstroke are very rare, but they can kill. Dehydration is very common, but basically all it does is slow you down a little. Try to imagine Paleolithic man chasing after wild game on the high, sunny plains of East Africa 150,000 years ago. You think he didn't get dehydrated? You bet he did. But he adapted and evolved to the conditions, and got rehydrated at night when he returned to the local watering hole/pub.
    Amby Burfoot
  • Amby,

    sorry to be so blunt earlier - I guess my point was that the formula given in the article only really works for sedentry people, there's no real indication of how much more runners need to drink. For the benefit of everyone else, I'll paste the contents of an email I received from Oli::::

    ●•●•●•●•●•●•●•●•●•●•●•●•●•●•
    The 'at rest' formula is very useful, because it's your basic daily requirement.

    Once you know that, simply drink that much per day every day. Then weigh yourself before and after each run and replace further fluids as necessary.
    ●•●•●•●•●•●•●•●•●•●•●•●•●•●•

    I think this clarifies things a bit - thanks Oli
  • JjJj ✭✭✭
    What's 'Amby' short for?
  • Further TRFKARR's comment:

    When drinking to rehydrate post run, you need to compensate one a very individual basis based on trial and error.

    The latest stuff I've found suggests a 1:1 rehydration ratio. Here's how that'll work:

    Weigh yourself in kgs before and after a set distance run (say five miles. The difference (in kgs or more likely grams) is the the weight of water you have lost. Since one gram = one mililitre, this figure is also the number of mils you need to rehydrate for that distance (divide it by five and you've got your fluid loss per mile from which you can work out a ball park volume of rehydration for any run of a known distance).

    Unfortunately that doesn't take into account non-constant circumstances (heat, humidity, wind, air pressure, and even for some people intensity of run etc etc).

    But it's a start.

    oli
  • I think we have to remember that the reason people drink too much and suffer from hyponatraemia is more the fault of running too hard in tough conditions, not really that of water. I remember when Leanne Betts (I think that was her name) died from drinking too much water having taken an ecstacy tablet. Some idiot rave promoter said that it was therefore water that killed people, not ecstasy.

    I remember reading in Arthur Lydiard's book, "Running to the Top", the suggestion that running in humid weather was better than dry weather as it helped to cool the skin. I'm still struggling to see the logic, especially as humidity tends to murder me.
  • Well, a very interesting article. Especially as it seems to affect women more than men. I drink a lot of water everyday, maybe 3 or 4 litres in this heat. I keep hydrated during running and must admit have often weighed myself before and after a training run in order to replace lost water. Its helpful to know about the sodium dilution though, I often have a packet of crisps after running, but not as a general rule. Why does there have to be so much contradiction when it comes to health?
  • I think Arthur Lydiard is talking rubbish. We cool by water/sweat on the skin evaporating and in humid conditions it is less easy for the sweat to evaporate. Ergo less cooling effect.

    Thanks road runner... on my screen 8 looks decidedly GREY. I don't think my urine has ever been that colour!

    My questions regarding overhydration on toxins has not been answered, and I think in general neither has the problem with slight overhydration been identfied clearly for me.

    I also would like to enquire how they determine your 'hydration status' scientifically. It is a 'norm referenced' value or a model-based system of cell interaction, or just some made up system. Is it a range or a specific value. What variation constitutes the leap from 'hydrated' top over/under. This could radically alter the population who were deemed to be 'overhydrated' just because of what they deem to be hydrated/over/under.


    the formula is also highly simplistic in that the at rest state doesn't really cover what conditions you will be in when at rest.

    Lastly, the guy who had problem recently in the UK (actor chap) had drunk 8 litres of straight water in a day. Even then most of use will eat food (with salt in), drink squashes and juices with thigns in or gulp energy drinks.

    Aren't the majority of people still (a) taking too much salt in their diet, promoting high blood pressure (b) failing to do sufficient exercise.

    Summary. Tip of an iceberg, the article is interesting to a few, but there needs to be more than the 5 minute read-bite in order to get a real handle on whats going on.

    djb
  • David Bennett: Right, here we go, I've given what comments I can in CAPS (NOT SHOUTING, I PROMISE;-)

    Is there any benefit from what would now be termed 'overhydration' to assist with the 'excretion of toxins in the body'. For example, after a massage, or a hard workout we are often encouraged to drink lots of water.
    THE FIRST THING YOU HAVE TO APPRECIATE IS THAT OUR ARTICLE IS BASED FIRSTLY ON NEW DIRECTIVES FROM THE DOCTORS ASSOCIATED WITH AIMS. THEY HAVEN'T HAD TIME TO GIVE THIS A HUGE VOLUME OF SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH AND COME UP WITH DETAILED TEST DATA. THAT SAID, LOGIC DICTATES THAT THE 1:1 REHYDRATION RATIO WOULD REMAIN OPTIMAL REGARDLESS OF THE SITUATION (I THINK THE FLUSHING OUT OF TOXINS POST-MASSAGE OR HARD WORKOUT IS SOMETHING I'D QUESTION ANYWAY, AS THERE IS NO CERTAIN PHYSIOLOGICAL EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THIS IDEA). HOWEVER, YOU COULD SIMPLY OVERLOAD SLIGHTLY AND THEN COMPENSATE BY DRINKING SLIGHTLY LESS LATER ON.

    Secondly, the article closes with the catch all 'clear or light coloured', not dark for your pee. Can we have a colour chart to determine the when light yellow becomes too dark? :-)
    YOU'VE HAD THIS COURTESY OF RR.

    I think Arthur Lydiard is talking rubbish. We cool by water/sweat on the skin evaporating and in humid conditions it is less easy for the sweat to evaporate. Ergo less cooling effect.
    YES, GOT TO AGREE WITH YOU TOTALLY THERE.

    and I think in general neither has the problem with slight overhydration been identfied clearly for me.
    NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN, CAN YOU CLARIFY A BIT AND I'LL DO MY BEST TO HELP.

    I also would like to enquire how they determine your 'hydration status' scientifically. It is a 'norm referenced' value or a model-based system of cell interaction, or just some made up system. Is it a range or a specific value. What variation constitutes the leap from 'hydrated' top over/under. This could radically alter the population who were deemed to be 'overhydrated' just because of what they deem to be hydrated/over/under.
    the formula is also highly simplistic in that the at rest state doesn't really cover what conditions you will be in when at rest.
    AS I SAID ABOVE, THIS IS NOT AN EXACT SCIENCE AT PRESENT. I THINK THE REHYDRATE BY WEIGHT IS THE BEST YOU'RE GOING TO GET, SIMPLY BECAUSE THERE ARE, AS YOU RIGHTLY SAY, TOO MANY VARIABLE FACTORS EVEN WHEN AT REST.

    Lastly, the guy who had problem recently in the UK (actor chap) had drunk 8 litres of straight water in a day. Even then most of use will eat food (with salt in), drink squashes and juices with thigns in or gulp energy drinks.
    TRUE, BUT OFTEN IN THESE CASES THE VULNERABLE GROUP MAKE THEMSELVES EVER MORE VULNERABLE BY FOLLOWING ALL THE ADVICE TO THE EXTREME. IMAGINE SOMEONE WHO WANTS TO GET FIT, SO STARTS RUNNING, HEARS THAT SALT IS BAD AND CUTS AS MUCH SALT FROM THEIR DIET AS POSS, AND HEARS THAT THEY NEED TO DRINK LOTS AND LOTS OF WATER; THEY'RE WHAT YOU MIGHT CALL 'AT RISK'. THE PROBLEM IS NOT WITH ARTICLES LIKE THIS OR WITH THE DIRECTIVES (OLD OR NEW) BEHIND THEM. IMO IT'S THE SOUNDBITE OR SENSATIONALIST REPORTING YOU SEE ELSEWHERE THAT LEADS TO THE OVERGENERALISATION THAT ENTERS PUBLIC CONSCIOUSNESS AND LEADS TO PEOPLE OVERDOING THINGS.
    Aren't the majority of people still (a) taking too much salt in their diet, promoting high blood pressure (b) failing to do sufficient exercise.
    YES AND YES.

    Hope that helps with some of your questions.

    oli roberts (RW Staff Writer)
  • So this is just like every other health fad and the real advice is that a little bit of everything is the way to go i.e. we all need a certain amount of fat, salt and other baddies in our diet.

    The Urine colour chart is just for dehydration I note. If your pee is colourless then wouldn't this be a sign of over hydration?

    It seems to be a tad obsesive to weigh yourself before and after a run to gauge how much you should take back on and my bathroom scales are not calibrated for gramms of weigh loss anyway.

    In this years FLM I cramped in a major way at 20 miles, this could have been due to over/dehydration and now looking back to it I never felt thirsty once. My Dad always used to cramp also in long races and he carried salt with him to counter act this. This would also make sense as I have a very salty face after running in hot conditions.

    As in everything else in life we should rely on ourselves to make the best choices for ourselves and just take heed of advice given by research. We are individuals case studies after all.
  • I'm not Marathon fit yet, but when I am know I'm in an at risk group for hyponataemia. This is because I am a) female, b) short, c) have a naturally low blood pressure d) am on prescription mediacation that increases the risk.

    So I read all information regarding this topic with interest.

    I tend to drink Isostar as my main running drink, but think the idea about the salt tablets is great.

    Incidentally the thing I wanted more than anything after race for life was a half pint of bitter and packet of crips. Was this my body's way of telling me I needed more salt?
  • Ice Maiden - be really careful with salt tablets, purely because your body might not be able to cope with that amount of salt at the same time. ie when you eat salty food you body will be able to react when you have had enough, but if you take salt tablets ie alot of salt at once it can't stop you...

    With regards to isostar, check out the sodium content, when I was researching for my last marathon I found the the normal off the shelf energy drinks didn't contain alot of salts and therefore may not necessarily replace what is lost, but that SIS do a hypotonic drink which has these added in...
  • BarklesBarkles ✭✭✭
    Agreed Spans, take a sensible sports drink over salt tabs anytime!
  • I think it may have been the new york marathon where they gave out salted pretzels....
  • funnily enough that is what the US RW site suggested that you ran with... but I couldn't quite get my head around how you would run and eat something that dry!
  • yes YES

    YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
    So crisps ARE good for you
  • So no salt tablets just make sure you have a pocket full of pretzels.

  • Incedentally I wasn't suggesting salt tablets (can you even buy them now?), I agree this would be a large amount to take on board at once (like 4 pints of water). My point was that you do need to replace the salt in some form. Back in my Dads running days there was no such thing as Isostar, Isotonic etc. His idea of an energy bar was a concentrated jelly stuffed in his sock.
  • It occured to me this morning that probably the best thing to combat dehydration and yet not dilute the body's salt balance was dioralite (sp). It is designed with salt in it in the right concentration for the body. The blackcurrant version does not taste that bad. effectively all it is is water, a bit of sugar and a bit of salt.

    It appears the problem with hyponatraemia is that by just taking neat water, you are just diluting salt concentrations, and not replacing the salt you are sweating off. Surely this can be compensated for by quenching thirst using a drink that replaes the electrlytes in a balanced fashion.
  • Two things have crossed my mind.

    1) it is only a small minority that are likely to suffer from hyponatraemia, whereas dehydration affects a lot more people, especially in this heat. Surely we want to be wary of overcompensating for a small risk when dehyration would then become much greater a risk.

    2) why do we drink? because we are thirsty or just because we are told we should be drinking 8 glasses a day.? If we are drinking because we are thirsty does it matter how much we drink? (during a general day rather than racing?)
  • I agree with you Ice Maiden - Dyoralite is probably a really good idea as it has the correct balance of electolytes.
    Alternatively (and I do this to help recover when I've got a hangover) you can make up your own basic oral rehydration (electrolyte) solution by dissolving 1 tblsp sugar and 1 tsp salt in 1 litre of water.
  • J JJ J ✭✭✭
    There was an Editorial in the British Medical Journal this week on the same topic. It comes to the conclusions that we should drink according to thrist. Seems logical, good for us and bad for the sports drinks manufacturers.

    The article is quite well written and not too medical. It is available to read on line for those interested at

    http://bmj.com/cgi/content/full/327/7407/113
  • that article is by Tim Noakes of Lore of Running ?
  • Ice maiden,

    I'd be careful with the Dioralyte. I used it before Ironman this year, and it worked well. But it's too strong to use regularly as a sports drink alternative. I took one sachet in a pint of water on the two days before the race, and carried one with me during the race in case I got severe electrolyte depletion (it was hot and windy). Wouldn't want to chuck down lots of it though, as it can make you feel a little queasy. As I understand it, It's designed to FORCE electrolytes into your system, which is great if you're badly dehydrated, but not good if you want to keep on moving.

    Interesting fact. One of the best electrolyte concentrations in a sports drink is found in Gatorade!

    DOGG – Salt tablets are available. There's brand called thermolyte (I think) that's available on the net. A lot of Ironman triathletes use them.



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