If we all lived within our means and said no to debt..

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  • Lee -I have read many books and have tried to look at the reasearch. I have studied Sociology and Social Anthropology too. I am aware of quite a few viws. I simply do not see Capitalism as sustaining the planet and accepting no growth.  All I have to go on is my knowledge and experience and I try to be open to other views -it is all we can do. I would hate to be set in my ways or mind but from some perspectives I could be accused of that. Equally I could claim that folk are brainwashed by the present system and it's ideology . All good stuff for debate.

    JW - I think there is hope so long as folk look for an alternative. I like TZM others may like and find something else. I am left wing but I do not think Socalism or Communism is the answer anymore. The problem is global and setting up an elite will cause its own problems in that system.  My views have moved towards TZM although I personally am unsure how transition would occur. If in a few years time things have not gone pretty awful for an increasing number I will concede but all I ask is watch this space.  Part of me wants to be wrong and I would like to see greater prosperty for all of us -I dunno.

    On debt - if we all lived within our means and avoided debt , again what would happen to the present economy. Most have fudged the answer or (maybe with some justification) tried to change the question. Maybe not all have studied Sociology and Social Anthropology or even Economics  , So I ask where do your views come from -how have you been informed? How many have listened to any of The Zeitgeist Movement stuff?  Criicise it and it's views but hear what they are first, that is what I would say.   

  • STU - wrote (see)

    On debt - if we all lived within our means and avoided debt , again what would happen to the present economy. Most have fudged the answer or (maybe with some justification) tried to change the question.

    Do you ever bother to read what other people post ????

    debt = bad is not the same as  un-servicable debt = bad.

    You can live within your means and still have debt

  • Screamapillar wrote (see)

    The whole point is ultimately whether you can afford to pay the debt off - either in the short or long term.

    Our mortgage is nearly paid. My very prudent OH (his dad was a loans manager in a bank!) has the funds to pay it off whenever he wants to but  doing so wouldn't be of any particular benefit to us while the interest rates are so low.In other words, ironic though it may be, he is choosing to stay "in debt" for the time being.I realise we are lucky in some respects to be in this situaton  as much of this has depeneded on being in continuous full time employment (in other respects we are not, we work hard and are not frivolous with our spending) but the point is, if you are savvy, you can make all this stuff work in your favour rather than against you. 
    a lot have managed to do that screamy. Good on 'em.  It will be harder for many and folks will be paying debts off and  with little else to consume stuff. The choice is more debt or  consume less -obviously. If all consumed less , wouldn't jobs be lost ? It isn't me that bangs on about growth being "the aim"  it is the politicians . Maybe , just maybe, growth is not desirable or sustainable. That aint simply off the top of my head but a fact. 
  • We can't really live without debt, as a society. It has nothing to do with capitalism, communism, socialism, or whatever system of government you have.

    The reason is that people are living longer. They need to save for their retirement, in one way or another. It can be personally, it can be via the state, via a bank, or whatever, but one way or another, in our productive years we need to be putting some money aside for our later years. I.e. investing it.

    And you can't really save money unless someone is prepared to take the money off you and do something with it. If you give it to a bank, or equally if you give it to the treasury, they have to invest it

    And that means someone somewhere else is borrowing it, for example to start a business or buy a house. They are paying a return on that debt which goes into your pension. We can have wise debt, and we can have foolish debt, but if we want to have pensions, we can't have a debtless society. If nobody borrows then nobody can lend, and lending is how you do saving.

  • people dont talk of "bad debt" - they simply talk of debt generally. Some think all debt is "bad"   and want to return to the times when folk just saved for stuff or did without. Debt is debt and it can turn bad once your circumstances change -due to guess what? - the economic forces!! (shock horror)
  • STU - wrote (see)
    people dont talk of "bad debt" - they simply talk of debt generally. Some think all debt is "bad"   and want to return to the times when folk just saved for stuff or did without. Debt is debt and it can turn bad once your circumstances change -due to guess what? - the economic forces!! (shock horror)
    bollocks
  • Stu - sorry but you sound like a cult leader, i only touched the surface of this TMZ stuff and wasn't sucked in, it sounds like you really have been but also sounds like you too have only touched the surface!

    "If in a few years time things have not gone pretty awful for an increasing number i will concede" What planet do you live on man? Are you aware of growth areas around the world? Growth industries? Or are you just looking outside of your front room's window and reading the headlines because you read like a newspaper!

    Now i've altered my opinion - TMZ's views are naive, but so are yours.

  • Dave The Ex- Spartan wrote (see)
    STU - wrote (see)
    people dont talk of "bad debt" - they simply talk of debt generally. Some think all debt is "bad"   and want to return to the times when folk just saved for stuff or did without. Debt is debt and it can turn bad once your circumstances change -due to guess what? - the economic forces!! (shock horror)
    bollocks


    Absolute bollocks!

    And what times were those Stu? Debt isn't an invention of the 21st century you know......

  • MikeFrog wrote (see)

    We can't really live without debt, as a society. It has nothing to do with capitalism, communism, socialism, or whatever system of government you have.

    The reason is that people are living longer. They need to save for their retirement, in one way or another. It can be personally, it can be via the state, via a bank, or whatever, but one way or another, in our productive years we need to be putting some money aside for our later years. I.e. investing it. And you can't really save money unless someone is prepared to take the money off you and do something with it. If you give it to a bank, or equally if you give it to the treasury, they have to invest it And that means someone somewhere else is borrowing it, for example to start a business or buy a house. They are paying a return on that debt which goes into your pension. We can have wise debt, and we can have foolish debt, but if we want to have pensions, we can't have a debtless society. If nobody borrows then nobody can lend, and lending is how you do saving.

    you are saying that it does not matter what type of society we cannot  live without debt and then use all the mechanisms of capitalism to justify it.  We could live without money and provide for all our needs. We have the technology to meet all the basic needs of everyone on the planet and sustain the planet without debt . I do believe that is true but may not be if we continue to rape the planet of all it's resources (many will run out )  . This would take a massive shift in perspective and expectations and  I can see that it will be an almighty task.

  • JWrun wrote (see)

    Stu - sorry but you sound like a cult leader, i only touched the surface of this TMZ stuff and wasn't sucked in, it sounds like you really have been but also sounds like you too have only touched the surface!

    "If in a few years time things have not gone pretty awful for an increasing number i will concede" What planet do you live on man? Are you aware of growth areas around the world? Growth industries? Or are you just looking outside of your front room's window and reading the headlines because you read like a newspaper!Now i've altered my opinion - TMZ's views are naive, but so are yours.
    JW I have really looked at TZM in depth and have contributed in debates. It aint summat that I got sucked into rather summat that truly rang bells with me and how I see the world. I could go all factual and academic about it but really I am too lazy tbh. Daft thing is thatI see you as reading like a different newspaper-lol
  • Come on then - what is this marvellous technology that will ensure we can all live within our means, no debt will have to exist? Give us a summary of this wonderful TMZ proposal........ amazing how its taken off....oh no, it hasn't........although i suppose thats because the big banks and oil companies are controlling everything and don't want a solution isn't it? And roswell was real, the loch ness monster does exist and 9/11 was a hoax.  

    Show me a conspiracy theory and I'll show you a daisy on my lawn!

    I asked my dad "Why can't we just live without money and everything in the world could be free" when i was six!!

    Why do you think money was "invented/developed" in the first place stu?

  • So you define "putting money aside for your old age" as capitalism?
  • I agree that debt isn't a 21st century invention , it dates back to ancient society.  Now however we are in a system that encorages that because it "has to"  and will "have to" to keep more folk consuming. I cannot see the owners and manufacturers of our commodities and services saying  "Ok the population has enough stuff and we will stop getting them to buy" It does not work like that -simple as.
  • JW - you can deny a conspiracy theory but it does not mean a conspiracy does not exist. Please look at and listen to some of TZM stuff and come back to me with your analysis. The movies can get more across quicker than me and my lazy brainimage

    Mike you are hopping about like a frogimage I call putting money away for old age "sanity" in the present climate.

  • STU - wrote (see)
    I agree that debt isn't a 21st century invention , it dates back to ancient society.  Now however we are in a system that encorages that because it "has to"  and will "have to" to keep more folk consuming. I cannot see the owners and manufacturers of our commodities and services saying  "Ok the population has enough stuff and we will stop getting them to buy" It does not work like that -simple as.
    But that doesn't mean you have debt !!!!!!
  • But why would they? What are you referring to as commodities? What exactly are we encouraged to consume? You don't really make much sense with what are largely generalisations.

    Are you talking, water, electricity, gas, basic food? Or are you talking bigger tvs, computer consoles, designer gear?

    We do need to comsume to keep the economy going yes that is a fact of life - always has been always will be, it is the way of the world.......but there is a limit to what we HAVE to consume and this encouragement that you speak of? Do you mean advertising or what? Do you think we're all being brainwashed?

  • Ok on technology front listen to this/these

    http://www.thezeitgeistmovementuk.com/site/our-technical-reality

    some interesting stuff worth considering and in better words than I can offerimage

  • What he really means is that Stu is so terribly weak he is sucked in by all the pretty baubles and trinkets that he sees on his 70 inch plasma screen each night, and flash up on his I-Pad whilst he is waiting for the next message from the Great being in the Sky
  • JW - yes the media encourages us to keep consuming and keep wanting. We consume too much. We have to consume food to sustain us and we all need shelter etc. Great to have stuff to help us communicate  and travel and move people and goods around. We have the technology to make stuff that will last a lifetime but this technology will not be promoted and invested in because the system needs constant regualr consumers. They make stuff that doesn't last in spite of the technology we have. That aint fantasy but a fact. Watch the videos and see what you think after.
  • STU - wrote (see)
    JW - yes the media encourages us to keep consuming and keep wanting. We consume too much.

    Yet again you presume to answer for the whole planet !!!  You may well consume too much, But you have no right to say the rest of us do

    (Waits being called a Nazi again)

  • don't be daft DTXS - I am talking of mankind in general and from a sociological perspective. You are talking from an individualistc perspective image

    Of course I am just a  weak ill informed naive soul that swallows anything that is put in front of him. My education and lesson learned to always question stuff has led to just that.

  • STU - wrote (see)

    don't be daft DTXS - I am talking of mankind in general

    So you do think you are God !

  • Stu thanks but i have listened to enough of that video to know i'm not interested in it's theories or conspiracies.

    STU - wrote (see)
    JW - yes the media encourages us to keep consuming and keep wanting. We consume too much. We have to consume food to sustain us and we all need shelter etc. Great to have stuff to help us communicate  and travel and move people and goods around. We have the technology to make stuff that will last a lifetime but this technology will not be promoted and invested in because the system needs constant regualr consumers. They make stuff that doesn't last in spite of the technology we have. That aint fantasy but a fact. Watch the videos and see what you think after.

    This comes back to what we were talking about yesterday and it is abundantly clear that you do not listen (read) to a word anyone else says but ok......

    The media may encourage us - thats advertising - but it is up to us to choose whether to be sucked in by everything. If people want to get a loan out to get an Ipad or bigger boobs or the latest VW then all power to them WE ARE NOT ALL THE SAME and you bunching everyone into this group of consumers that according to you have no will power of our own and cannot resist buying the latest quilted loo roll cos the koala on the tv tells us to is quite frankly insulting.

    And you're right, just cos conspiracy theories exists doesn't mean they're not real but that is why they remain conspiracies as they cannot be proven, it does mean however that the nutters who perpetuate are real and most of them are like you (not calling you a nutter directly btw....although image), they are blinkered, they are inflexible in their views and they refuse to see beyond what they have been told and what fits into their own opinionated views.

  • The thing about capitalism is it hinges around people buying shiny things that they don't need. People are told they need shiny things and believe they need them NOW.

    It's all very well saying "in the old days we saved for things" but in the old days things were built to last and could be repaired. Nowadays things have built in obsolescence and when they break you have to throw them away. Coupled with the speed that "must have gadget" technology moves you have a nasty situation.

    Imagine saving all your money for a Playstation. By the time you've saved for it The PS2 has been and gone and the next biggest thing is the Wii. So you spend your money on that. The next week out comes the PS3.

    Get a credit card and you could have bought all 4. House prices rise. You can remortgage your house, pay off your credit card and hey off you go again. Except you are still paying for your PS, PS2, PS3 and Wii and they're all in the bin because the kids have grown up and moved out.

    What's the real problem? Keeping up with the Jonses and believing the hype.

    Games consoles is one thing but when your boiler, freezer, washing machine and car all break down in the same month and only the car can be fixed (usually the bits have to be replaced).

    As has been mentioned debt is not serviceable credit. They're different things.

    In the ideal world we would all save like mad until we had 12months mortgage payments in the bank and when emergencies come along we'd pay cash. The problem is/was savings are not paying interest and the money saved is losing value.

    In the ideal world there would be a law passed that everything had to last 5 years and be serviceable at the end of those 5 years. More people would be employed in service and repair and less in manufacture. Things would cost more to buy but last longer.

  • It aint uncommon to talk about mankind and society you know. We can learn by looking at general trends and finding patterns. We are not just a pick and mix of individuals and that is it-lol
  • Tim - I largely agree but would say we need to pass a law that shiney things should last as long as technology can make itimage This is a real possibility you know.

    JW - I am a bit nutty but that is coz I think too much at times-lol -cannot win

    I can argue that those who follow and defend the present system close their minds too.

  • TimR wrote (see)

    The thing about capitalism is it hinges around people buying shiny things that they don't need. People are told they need shiny things and believe they need them NOW.

    . Coupled with the speed that "must have gadget" technology moves you have a nasty situation.

    No one is saying you must have.......   You are being seduced by baubles and trinkets

    Years ago, I spent an afternoon educating my daughter on the difference between want and need.

    Sadly as a she is a woman, shoes fall into need rather than want

    (waits to be called a misogynistic nazi)

  • i think largely TimR is in agreement but trying to be diplomatic.

    And i hope you're not referring to me there stu, i am very willing to listen to others views, yes I am opinionated but I won't argue about something i know nothing about and nor will i just dismiss peoples views out of hand without having an informed opinion to back them up. I am certainly not defending the present system but then i also belive that TZM is wishful thinking and naive (as i have said) now i know some of what its about.

  • Nah Jw   but many do without back up. I try like you but we come from different angles. To me the more you get into TZM the more sense it makes. I initially was dubious until I watched all the big 2 hour video and other stuff. I had to take special note on the technological questions as I am not techie minded . The present system aint good and I do believe we can come up with something better. I really do see the present system collapsing in the next few years but only time will tell that.  I like to back up my opinions but tend to be lazy at times. When in the mood I will quote stuff and give evidence. Anyway I can actually enjoy the debates. The subject is massive too.
  • STU - wrote (see)
     I initially was dubious until I watched all the big 2 hour
    Was that the one you advertised as having naked women in it ?
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