HADD training plan



  • KhanivoreKhanivore ✭✭✭

    Hi guys, if you are training via the HADD method but you throw in a full pelt balls out race once a month (10k or half marathon) is that ok or will it somehow negatve the effects of all 70% maxHR training you have been doing? I think I asked this once before but I couldn't find the answer or question even - it was some time ago. 

  • KhanivoreKhanivore ✭✭✭

    ps. my weekly mileage is about 30-35 and i want to increase it to 50 mpw+ so HADD seems a perfect way to do that as I figure going slow will help me protect myself from injury while increasing mileage.

  • StewartCStewartC ✭✭✭

    Hi Andi, 

    I'm also doing Loch Ness this September, you're right in saying the route has a net decline but there are some tough hills to climb so I would do both sessions

  • Hey Stewart and yes, can't avoid hills on Mull but will be including them on each run and substituting some (up)hill 'sessions' for downhill ones image Have you run it before? the hill out of Dores is supposed to be the biggy, not so much steep but goes on for a while and am told many people are surprised by the 2 earlier hills as the profile all looks downhill.

    Khanivore, can't help with the monthly full pelt Q sorry but would be interested in the answer myself though am thinking it wouldn't harm things too much?

  • StewartCStewartC ✭✭✭

    Andi, never run it but have driven the route many times, one before Foyers probably around mile five looks a toughie and the hill after Dores must be close to two miles there is also another hill after that one at Scaniport(sp) then it is downhill into Inverness 

  • Stewart, have only driven the West side of the Loch once so all new territory to me (ok, twice cos I came back). I see you regularly run 31-50 miles pw so do much more than me currently, whats your goal time for LN? This is my first and just aiming for a sub 5 hour run. 

  • Hi hadders, first things first huge congrats to chickadee on a great campaign and well executed marathon at hamburg. Recover well.

    Khanivore, hadding is training albeit all below lactate threshold.

    The aim being to raise the LT has high as possible.

    What better way to test the theory than race. The great thing about hadd being that although your working at or below 80%, your 90% pace increases as well.

    Somebody asked if I was doing london. No not this time.

    I'm currently training fof a series of 3 5k races in May.
  • KhanivoreKhanivore ✭✭✭

    If I read this right I should be running 1 hour a day for 6 days with 4 of those days at 70-75% HRmax and 2 days at 80% HRmax. I should then run a 2 hour run on the weeknd at 70-75% HRmax. Is that right or have i messed this all up? 

    My two comments are that at that HR I won't be covering much mileage and that I will have to get used to running every day as right now i only run 4 days a week.

  • KhanivoreKhanivore ✭✭✭

    One more question - my 5km pace is around 7:20-7:30 min/mile I think. Since hadd says don't train slower than 3 min/mile slower than your 5k pace this means my slowest training pace is 10:30 min/mile. I am pretty sure at this pace I will be at my sub LT HR or higher! Should i just stick to the 10:30 min/miles until the situation improves?

  • Hi Hadders, I've not posted for a while because was on marathon training and I've not really read back too far.  Welcome to newcomers and congratulations Chick.

    I think Sunday at VLM I saw the benefit of building a big aerobic Hadd base which I did for about 10 weeks prior to doing the intervals, LT etc. for the remaining 12 or so weeks.  Interesting that I was up to 50 miles a week on Hadd without a hint of injury and then got various injuries once I changed routines.

    The injuries gave me doubt that my sub 3h dream was still possible and in the preceding days changed plan from 'cautious sub 3h10' to 'go for it and risk gallant failure' and back again.

    By 10 on Sunday morning it was go for it mode and after 3 miles of settling into pace I managed to maintain 6:51 pace pretty much all the way round to come home in 3:59:20.  Obviously delighted and I'm pretty sure the Hadd base was a seriously important part of my preparations.

    What did surprise when I downloaded my stats was that I averaged about 91-92% max HR and in the final 1.2 miles I was at max.  This seems high, but even if I've got my max wrong by a few beats then it would still be over 90%.   I was expecting maybe 85-90% for the whole race. What sort of %max has anyone else seen during a marathon?

  • Khanivore, you seem to have it about right, a few adjustments ie vary your times it does'nt have to be one hour.

    Just try one 80% of MHR run at first and only after you are comfortable with the other runs at 70-75%, this might take a few weeks.

    Once you introduce a 80% run and you have very little drift or drop off of pace over a 70/75 min run you can either add another 80% run  or  increase that run to 83% .

    The above took me months to achieve and 16 months down the line still have a long way to go.

    Try not to focus too much on your pace, just work on HR the pace will sort its self out in the long run but keep a eye on it just to see your improvments.

    This is my take on Hadd and I am sure others will have more to say, so others please feel free to comment.

  • Well, Dr.Dan, I join your ranks. Saw my Ortho today and she says I have Hallux rigidus, which equates to degenerative arthritis of the big toe joint. I also have some very mild hallux valgus (which are bone spurs on the top of one of the toes near the big toe/foot joint (think very early precursor to bunions). Anyway,this stuff apparently doesn't get better, but I can get it under control again. So at minimum a few weeks of no running and lots of advil/icing. I can cross-train though (better than the sports hernia). Each and every damn time I reach his point I get hit. This one gives me pause though as it might be something I can't simply run through forever. But I'm going to be optimistic that I can get it under control and continue for a good while. Getting old sucks.

  • Well done everyone.   My ultras are coming thick and fast so keep plugging away with the miles.   Doing one 80%ish run a week. 

    Tonight was 12 miles at 8 min miles.   All under 80% so after Malvern a week on Saturday I need to look at my paces.

  • Khanivore, think you have the right idea basically, and Roy has it pretty spot on.

    The only variables are timing-wise. Ie. It depends on where you are now in the training cycle, what your last few training weeks look like and where you want to go with it. What are your short and long term goals?
  • Hollers, many congrats on the sub-3. Sounds like the whole experience was both fulfilling and educational. Although running a marathon with an average of over 88% is unusual I don't think it's unheard of. Did you keep even pace more or less for the whole of the 26.2?

    We read that the lactate threshold occurs somewhere in the region of about 90%

    The pace at which we can hold for about 60mins?

    I suspect that your max may need recalibration?

    Anyway regardless of hr the run was fantastic. Recover well...
  • VT, chin up fella. Take the positives - you can cross train. Have you tried indoor rowing btw? I have rowed when not able to run and it has given me a massive buzz.

    This is not the end of your running. The diagnoses tend to be worst-case scenarios too. Can an injection help? What about acupuncture? Dont let this get you down too much.
  • Spen, keep up the good work. Big respect to anyone that can run ultra distance.

    Huge mental investment required. Not so sure I have the mental strengh.

    I always marvel at those folks that can spend 5-6 hours on their feet!
  • KhanivoreKhanivore ✭✭✭
    Hi Brian

    I have been running 30-35mpw and did the London marathon last weekend (my first). I finished in 4:05. My goal is to get to 3:30.

    I did a recovery run yesterday and even at 5km pace + 3 min I AM well above 75% HRmax. HADD advises not running slower than this pace.
  • StewartCStewartC ✭✭✭

    Brian, interesting point on LT I recently ran Lochaber marathon, the first 16 miles were all above 90% remaining 10 in and around 85%, I'm also struggling keeping my HR below 75% but got a bit closer last night 76% 

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    VTimage ... stay positive and cross-train. I'm cycling ... not my bag but keeping me sane.

    Brian ... John Carr series I presume. I'm hoping my lad can run (a friend's son has run it before, so hope they allow kids ... nothing on website regarding dates and entry forms though) ... so might see you there.

  • Brian, I couldn't believe how evenly I ran it. Halfway in 1:29:55 so 30 sec neg split and my 5k splits were within 20 secs of each other. I really think the Hadd base played a huge part in this compared to my previous efforts. Thanks for the kind words and I will have another look at my max hr. can't contemplate it at the moment!

    VT, as the others have said don't let this get you down and find some other ways to train. 10k on a rowing machine is quite an interesting experience. image
  • Brian, Dan and Hollers, thanks for the encouragement. So Brian, funny you should mention the worst case scenario routine because I went to my PT today and got a completely different diagnosis. The person I saw yesterday (an ortho nurse practioner who is a world class triathlete) really only spent about 30 seconds looking at the toe/joint. Today, I had two PT people spend about an hour checking everything out. Long story short is that I don't have hallux rigidus nor really the valgus. The toe moves really well and the joint seems clear (so little to no arthritis). It may be more related to tendons that run off the big toe and up the front of the shin. Anyway, my long term outlook is back to good. I'll see how it all plays out but game on for now. Still gonna rest for a bit and then see how I respond to a short run next week.

  • KhanivoreKhanivore ✭✭✭
    I'll do a proper max hr test soon but based on what I think it is, which is based on the records from my gps watch, I'm over 80% at 11 min miles. Based on hadd's guidance I shouldn't even be running this slow! What should I do?
  • VT, great news. See, the positive thoughts had the desired effect.

    Khanivore, it is only a few days after VLM so I wouldn't worry too much about it yet. Give yourself some more recovery time and just make sure you run as easily as you can when you do run.
  • Thanks Brian

    Malvern ultra is 52 miles with 8000ft of ascent so I think 11 hours.

    I ran tonight at under 75% comes in at 8 min 30 per mile. Cannot show the data as got the ambit now and not worked out how to auto lap yet, this is nearly 2 mins a mile improvement since Xmas
  • macemace ✭✭✭
    Khanivore - a 4:05 marathon is 9:20 pace so my guess is around 10:30 would be about right to start assuming you averaged 80-85% in your marathon? What are your HR stats for London and how have you derived your max.
  • macemace ✭✭✭
    VT that's good news after a bit of a scare !!
  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    VT ... phew!image

    Khanivore - don't get too hung up about pace at this point. Think about time on your feet at something in the region of 5KP+3min for a month ... be consiently consistent ... and then re-assessimage. The body will build aerbic fitness over a wide range of paces, so not worth trying to be too precise, so long as you're comfortably below LT.

    So, I've managed a full 5 days of bike commuting (well, once I get home) for the first time in God knows when ... thought it would be a breeze but I'm surprisingly knackered actuallyimage. Which is goodimage. I thinkimage. One big hill climb on each leg, so hopefully this will build some strength over the next month or so. I'll probably recover over the weekend and then repeat next week, perhaps with some swimming thrown in ... plan is to also start putting in a Sunday morning ride as well but I'll give myself some time to get bike fit first. I like th idea of rowing ... but I hate gyms.

  • Just a random thought: we are fairly extreme people. It doesn't dawn on me how our routine weeks are viewed by most folks (even casual runners). It's a wonder our bodies put up with all the miles for the stretches we manage...

  • Mace, I'm with you. I hate going to the gym to get my cardio in. I also feel zero motivation to get on a bike or swim. I think I need to find a way to change that as I would probably benefit greatly by simply replacing one run per week with a bike session. Over time, this could really add up in the wear/tear category. Props to you for getting on the bike every day and getting it done!

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