HADD training plan



  • VT,  great news!

    Soz guys been really busy this week. I have next week off and in rome mon till thurs.

    Happy weekend!

  • VTrunnerVTrunner ✭✭✭

    Oops, I guess I should have said that I share Dr. Dan's distaste for gyms.

  • gym?   whats one of them?

  • spen71 wrote (see)

    gym?   whats one of them?

    My next door neighbour is called Jim image

    Been a bad lad and not run for 11 days image 1 more week to go then Marathon training proper starts and have decided (after advice here) to use the HADD Advanced II plan but butcher it up to suit me and do more up/down hill training whilst still keeping below 80%. On short forest trail distances am not sure the Garmin will be accurate so am thinking I'll jog/run for 2 to 3 minutes and try to improve distance rather than set the garmin for (say) .25 of a mile and time that - thoughts anybody? and, would 2-3 minutes repeats on a steep hill be long enough or should I increase it t (say)  5 minutes from the outset? The hill I've chosen I've only ever run up when trying hill training before and always walk a fair amount of it during a run. It's a shade over 2 miles from home so the session should be 5 miles plus.

  • ooh, just had a thought, with the hills how about running up it until I hit (say) 80% then jog down until its (say) 70% and repeat that until I get to the top - about 1/2 mile and do that 3 times? Then do the reverse when doing the downhill sessions, doesn't sound as 'boring' as just hill repeats to me as my goal would be to be to the top in 1 run then try and improve speed (if I ever do it).

  • KhanivoreKhanivore ✭✭✭

    Hi mace - I got my max hr from looking at Garmin logs. The highest I hit was 186 - that was on a bike ride climbiNG a long hill and I remember thinks i was gonna explode image Will do proper HRmax test once recovered from the marathon. My average hr in the marathon was 164.

  • macemace ✭✭✭

    Khanivore - you should definitely do the max test but recover fully from your marathon first and have a day (or maybe 2) rest before doing it. If you aren't fully recovered / rested you won't do the test justice and more importantly you'll end up doing yourself some damage.

    It's very difficult to guess as everyone's different but if I was forced to I'd say your max is over 190, assuming the 186 wasn't a spike, and based on you averaging 164 for your marathon.

    Good luck, be patient and you will reap the benefits.

  • dprovandprovan ✭✭✭

    I am interested in the discussions around max heart rate. I am 40 yrs old so using the crude 220-age I should be around 180. However I believe mine is nearer to 205. I have had a few really tough training runs where I have hit as high as 207 with my garmin 610. I ran a 10k where I ran faster than I ever have and remember thinking on the last mile that I too was going to explode my heart rate hit 199 that day. I then ran a marathon with an average of 176 and hit 203 that day. Do these figures sound consistent with an early 200 heart rate?

  • If you've seen a HR of 207, then I think your max may well be higher than 180. Probably higher than 205, too.



    (There is no "should" about 220-age - it's just an average.)

  • dprovandprovan ✭✭✭

    thanks Mmmatt, more recently I have seen really bizarre readings from my garmin 610 was up 220 and above so I am factoring in the possibility of inaccurate readings. I quoted 207 because this was the highest I seen when I had no concerns with the monitor.

  • KhanivoreKhanivore ✭✭✭

    Dprovan if the spikes in hr at the beginning of your runs try thoroughly soaking the hr strap before wearing it.

  • Did my 80% run tonight and It is 7:45 min miles now.   Was a struggle for the tenth mile so need to stick at this pace for a month or so.

  • Interesting chat about MHR image Have mine set at 188bpm, the highest I've seen (I discount the 220 ones at the start of a session). It may be a few beats more but currently happy using this.

    Am sure I asked this (related) Q on here a while back, I currently use WHR to calculate my Zones however want to start using my Garmin to track % rather than BPM and it won't do the WHR % and defaults to % of MAX, the difference is more than I thought....

    All slow running in April (av 11:50 min/mile) averaging 142bpm, the WHR % is just 64% but as a % of MHR it is 76%. Just outside the desired 75% but as Marathon Training starts next week am wondering if I'll be able to do any hill training and keep below 80% of MHR as I hit it on most hills.

    Thoughts anybody? should I stick with my old % of WHR and maybe kid myself all my runs are easy and forget the Garmin Zones or start using % of MHR and slow down even more?

    What do you all do?


  • Posted at the same time Spen, excellent times!

  • Some stats as movescount has been updated  target is 152bpm

             pace           HR


    1       7.42          143

    2       7.50           148

    3       7.42           149

    4       8.06            151            Over canal bridge

    5        7.46            152

    6       7.31            148

    7       8.10            153           over canal bridge

    8       7.45            153

    9      7.46            154

    10    7.50             155



  • VTrunnerVTrunner ✭✭✭

    Andi, sorry to say, the old links I had for the Higdon plan have been removed from the web. Bummer.





  • VTrunnerVTrunner ✭✭✭

    Well, I rested for 7 days. I dutifully stretched my big toe (and all the super tight tendons attached to it that run up the front of my shin), took advil, and wore hard soled shoes. Ran a progressive 9 miler yesterday (yes, I know, I started out saying only 5 miles and very, very easy and then the image took over). No pain during the run or after (knock on wood). On my way back!

    It's amazing to me how many foot issues I have had over the past few years that can be chalked up entirely to not stretching out my calves/shins/toes (I guess it's all kind of connected, eh?). In every instance, I had no idea I was so tight as to be causing any problems.

    As punishment for going above and beyond yesterday, I'm not even looking at my kayanos todayimage.

  • spen, just to make me feel better I read your mile splits to be kilometre splits image Well done!

    VTrunner, no probs and thanks for looking image Fingers crossed there are no DOMS from your progressive run image When I started running again I had progressive pain starting in my foot, stretched that after running then my shin, started stretching that, then my calves... you get the ideaimage am currently just jogging slowly and don't stretch at all now but guess I should start again - prevention is better than cure don't ya knowimage

  • VTrunnerVTrunner ✭✭✭

    Spen, nice 80% run. It's amazing how fast those 80% efforts can spur improvement in fitness (and of course how fast it can leave when you stop themimage). Post your next few so we can see how you fare. For me it always seems like once I can get through those 10 miles feeling strong the whole way I have really reached a new fitness level.

    Andi, I wouldn't overly worry about %HR for now. Just focus on easy effort on all days except your MP/tempo/intervals. If that easy effort is 76-78% or so, no worries. If you do enough time on your feet at those efforts, eventually your HR will drop so that you'll cover the same ground at the same pace (but now at say 72-74%...this will then repeat again...downshifting is not overrated...it just takes lots of miles). Good luck.

  • chickstachicksta ✭✭✭

    Hi guys, back in HADD land after my marathon exploits image

    hollers: well done on going sub 3, mate image

    Another one with a massive distaste for gyms image  not really impressed by those beefcakes and gym bunnies ("whatever you do, don't sweat or it'll ruin the war paint") image

    VT: glad you are alright. I have indeed hallux rigidus but I'm simply ignoring it image. The "specialist" I went to said if it gets worse we can cut open your foot and scrape the excess bone and tissue off image. Err, thanks but no thanks. I wore orthotics for a while, then we moved and I never found them again (they must be in one of the unopened boxes in the attic ...) I ran for a long time without orthotics and had no pain. Now the pain comes back sporadically but only when I marathon train and hit big mileage weeks.

    So today was my first proper run again, with HR monitor. 5 miles @ 70%. Slow and shit but par for the course.

    Question: I would like to run a few 10ks in June - because they are there and because I dread them and need to do something about it.

    Is it a stupid idea that's counterproductive to HADD or can I get away with it?

  • Hi all! I think the sunshine has lifted my spirits - I'm starting to feel a bit better about plodding along gently image

    Obviously, I'm useless for anyone's queries so sorry to jump in after you Chickadee!  I just wanted to report that I'm now comfortably doing 11m/m at 75% HR so I think I've shaken that virus off properly.  HR still climbs to 160ish up hills but if it goes beyond that I stop and walk.  I'm able to keep my AHR below 150 for an hour.  I haven't checked if my pace is consistent yet but planning to do that next week and if it's all good I can start adding slightly faster runs once a week. 

    I think I've got that right image

    Happy running everyone image

  • Chickadee -  I would like to know the answer to the question.   Does fast running stop aerobic development


  • macemace ✭✭✭

    Chick - a 10k will basically be a more image sub LT run. If a twice weekly sub-LT is ok i can't see how a few 10k is counterproductive. All good for working the LT.

    My plan is to do a couple of months HADD. weekly parkrun, maybe a couple 10k.

    ps. 5 recovery tonight and i too was absolute shit image the legs keep saying to me " err, don't forget ..... Marathon !!!"

  • I think as long as you are not doing intervals after interval doing 10k pace is fine.

  • txs VTR, will keep on plodding along image I was reading the Art of running Faster yesterday (it doesn't go totally against HADD) and was interested in the 'Breathing' chapter. I'm a breath in for 2 steps and out for 2 kind of guy and the book was suggesting 3 (or even 4) steps per breath so I tried 3 today and was amazed when I got back from an 'easy' 5k at the normal 66% of WHR (144bpm) but rather than 11:55 min/miles it was 10:51! Maybe a fluke? will try again tomorrow. My breathing did seem easier so maybe less effort? I did revert to 2 in 2 out on hills when it got tougher.

  • VTrunnerVTrunner ✭✭✭

    Hi Chick,

    Sorry to hear you are plagued by this too. I have some issues on my other foot too during high mileage. At least with that I can stretch through it. Seems stretching is working for this other foot too. Hope you stay clear of flare ups for a long while!

    Not sure about the 10K stuff. I'm amazed at how much of my edge was lost by having to take 8 of the last 10 days off. I know it will come right back but it really makes me think about tapering and how I totally don't trust that the reduced mileage will totally do me goodimage. I know it's proven (and has worked for me) but my brain always says I'm blowing it (during taper). Because I am an FT guy (and older now) I seem to lose my fitness so quickly. When I read about only having to do HADD training for 6-8 wks and then jumping right into a marathon plan I think that could never work for me. I need like 4-6 months of HADD before the specific training.

  • VT Runner


    I only semi taper.   Reduce the milage but not as much as they say should do.   It is physcological with me,

  • Hi all

    Strange question.   Ive got the Sunnto Ambit now.   For the first two miles I have high readings for heart rate then it settles down to where it should be.   I never noticed this before.   Is this normal?

  • chickstachicksta ✭✭✭

    spen: do you use a contact gel? could help with the silly readings at the beginning. I have some ultrasound gel that I use on my Garmin HR strap and it works great.

    Thanks for the advice re. 10ks. They will be my only speedwork, promise!

    Tapering does work. I like the P&D taper - it still has you do some good mileage and even some faster stuff during the penultimate week so it doesn't feel like you've suddenly stopped training altogether.

    Andi: interesting about the breathing stuff. Maybe it really works and those guys have a point? A minute per mile quicker - crikey! Must try that too image

  • What do you use as a contact gel

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