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I have done a heart rate test. I measured my max heart rate to be 184. This is actually pretty close to 220 - my age by coincidence which is 41. I'm pretty sure that is my max heart rate.
Most people find it very difficult to stick with the program without thinking " gee, this slow running is making me slower, I better do some fast running " and then cheating the program.
Work at 75% MHR and see if the HR and Pace improves if it does, move HR down to 73% and then 70%. According to HADD you should see improvements about every 6 weeks.
PS 163bpm is your optimal HR for the marathon, just need to change the pace at that HR.
Hope this helps in some way.
Roy it does help - thanks Banked another 8 miles today. I let the HR sit at around 135-140 for much of the run instead of 130. It was epic slow but I don't mind room much. I've noticed at these speed walking paces I can do more mileage without niggles. At the very least this training will help me up my mileage without getting injured!
Khanivore, the no/less injury bit was probably the main thing that sold me on HADDing and the slower speed helped me to run for an hour rather than a mile or so without a walk break in a couple of weeks. A few months down the line and whilst still slow I'm almost at my 30 min 5k at under 70% - once thats sorted I hope my 10k time (67 mins) will get much closer to sub 60 and all done whilst Marathon Training
I had a quick check of my running logs and at 5km pace + 3 min/ mile my hr is at about 83-84% max hr! So should I run at this pace, at 15+ min/mile which gets me to 70% max hr, or something in between? I know no one can tell me THE answer but keen to hear opinions.
Hi Khanivore, just remind me - I know your mara time is 4:05, what was your HRav for that run? Plus have you any other race data (times and HRav)?
I also am beginning to doubt that your figures are accurate. I'm not saying your telling porkies, but I would just like to help.
I second the bit about injuries, Andi . I find it easy to do regular 50 mile weeks with HADD whereas similar mileage plus speedwork inevitably sets off the odd niggle or injury.
OK so i'm 100% sure that running at 15 min/mile is absolutely insane, regardless of heart rate. My problem is, as you will see below, even at relatively slow paces my heart rate seems to rise rapidly but then it plateu's. What do you think I should be running my easy pace at? FYI my max hr is 184.
ps click the graph to see all the columns!
I've never run a 5km pace but using mcmillan calculator with my half marathon best time gives me a 5km pace of 7:22 min/mile. With my marathon pace the calculator gives me 8:08 min/mile (obviously this is rubbish cos i ran a half marathon at a faster pace than this!).
So let's say my 5km pace is something like 7:45 min/mile. Hadd recommends running at no slower than 10:45 min/mile for me then. If you look at my chart you will see at this pace i'm going to be at around 83-85% max hr. Seems high - but maybe that's the pace I should be running at. What do you think?
Have you done a max test?
Hello peeps, not posted for a few months. Had a bad time at Milton Keynes and gave up at mile 12. I'm back on Hadd again, building up to Frankfurt. Having not shredded my base it will interesting to see what a full year's build-up of Hadd will do.
Talking of which, Khanivore I'm pretty sure your current issues are just the effects of your mara - it takes a good while for your muscles to repair, and that includes your heart.
One way to look at this is Beats Per Mile. In your mara you averaged 164 beats for 246 mins / 26.42m = 1,524 beats per mile. Assuming you were at peak fitness then, (and ignoring the fact that beats per mile should be lower for shorter distances), you need to aim to get back to 1524 bpmi on most runs. So at 75%max = 138, 1524/138 = 11mm. I'd jog at this pace until your HR improves. That's not far off your estimated 5k +3...
"Be patient. Do good work. And improvements will come."
Khanivore, the Macmillan calculator gives you 'guesstimates' providing you do adequate training for the distances and from what I've seen the nearer the actual result is to the calculated result the more accurate it should be (I think) use the guesstimates as, well, guesstimates but you'd be in the right ballpark. I'm actually calculating my Marathon time from a 5k time (not entirely wise).
As for your HR, the more I looked at the chart the more confused I got lol. You ran a Marathon averaging 9:19mm's and an average HR of 89% and 3 weeks later so possibly still recovering ran just 5 miles @ 9:47mm's and an AHR of 88%. again, I've never run a marathon but that sounds quite high for an average?
On your attempts to run at 70% do you run quickly then walk to recover? walk all the way? do you know your resting HR? Do you take long strides or babysteps? Will these answers help me? probably not but as others have said something doesn't fit right in my mind and think spen (and others) might be on the right track with the max test. Final Q, when you run at 80-85% can to chat away to people or if you run alone can you talk to yoursef coherently?
Teknik, sorry about MK however guess you now live to run another day rather than on the bench through injury
I've never seen that calculation before buts seems to make sense to my little brain
Teknik, tough luck on your mara. Hope frankfurt goes much better.
Khanivore, tekniks advice looks ok to me. What I would like to add is the fact that your marathon average of 164 points to a max of nearer to 190 than 180. Infact I would guess at 190. This points to 75% of ~ 142. If you use this as a ceiling, it may allow you to run at ~ 11m/miles, which seems reasonable being mp+2mins.
Yes I have done a max hr test.
Today I went for a 10:45 pace as planned. I felt fresh at the end of the run and I believe this is the right pace for me. Only problem is, my HR is at 85% lol. Here are the splits.
Mile 1, pace 10:46, hr 144 (78%)Mile 2, pace 10:46, hr 154 (84%)Mile 3, pace 10:42, hr 156 (85%)
it kinda stays like this with the last mile ending up at
Mile 8, pace 10:27, hr 158 (86%)
I know it's a high HR but this does feel like an easy pace to me.
Khanivore - on p.152 of this thread i estimated your max at over 190 based on your mara HR 164 which is consistent with Brian's estimate above. I agree with Tek, 11's is about right, stick with that and watch the HR fall forthw same pace. No way should you be running at 15's.
Sounds good I will give it a go!
Well a few of us have thought that your max was too low. So......
I'm confused why you guys think that. My measured max is pretty close to my theoretical max... Additionally I ran the marathon at a pretty reasonable heart rate as a % of my measured max.
i will give the 10:45-11:00 min miles a go for the next 3 months as suggested - that does make sense.
Khanivore, you come on the thread and ask for advice. Threadites with years of experience scratch their heads and offer a way forward for you. Give the guys a little credit and trust in them if you can.
Brian seriously? Have you read my posts? ive written in my last two posts that I will follow the advice given and run at 11 min miles...
... Your post was less than friendly
But I am a little surprised you haven't accepted that your max is inaccurate. It is very unusual for someone to run a marathon at ~90%. Also if you were doing almost all your training at 85%+ you wouldn't last long before injury struck.
But of course this is my opinion only. And what do I know. I have only been hadding since 2005, and done 16 marathons.
I'll get off my soapbox now
Brian, imo you have no need to apologise you have so much experience to share and I (for one) read replies with interest. I am however a newbie who has never run a marathon and it would appear that non of my replies/comments were worthy of a response from Khanivore (maybe I was just talking rubbish).
Keep posting - your making very good sense.
Thanks for taking time to contribute.
Andi to be honest I was doing my best to provide the data, then I went out for a run, and i posted some more info. I missed your posts. In answer to your questions I don't run-walk and I try to run with a high cadence and therefore take relatively small steps when running slowly.
Well, lively discussion going on here. For what is worth K, I think if you can stick at the 11 m/m pace for the next 4-5 wks on every run (and get about 35-45 miles per week in or alternatively get 5-6 hrs of running in for the week) you'll see results...that HR will drop at that pace. That is what you are looking for...that first moment of success with this approach...once you see that first result, you'll fall into the fold (and believe in this approach) and move deeper onto your new path of aerobic development. For me, it took a long while to be able to run at my 5K+2.5 min at a 70% HRave. I would go out and be near 80% at that pace (but still feel comfortable). It was hard to be disciplined and run slow...but after a while I went out and ran that pace at 75%...and so on. In the end, I can hit that pace now (actually much better than that pace) at less than 70%. But it has taken a while (including some stops/starts due to injury).
BTW, I love all the expertise here (including opinions from less seasoned members). It is a great learning environment. As a scientist, I always seek out those with expertise if I'm moving into a new area...why reinvent the wheel when we have great colleagues to help us, eh?
Sunday I had a 10 mile 80% effort in a really hilly area. Hit 7:06 m/m at 77%; it was a damn hard effort (in the wind/rain on legs that were positively abused going into that run) but I gutted it out (my quads actually felt tired near the end like I did in my marathon). Overall, was a great toughening run for me.
Today did my long run (15 miles today) with 9 @ a ~8:15 m/m at 70-72% range and then the last 6 at 7:50, 7:45, 7:30, 7:23, 7:13, and 7:11 (HR increased from ~75 to 83% over these miles). The good report is that I felt strong over these last miles (unlike the Sunday run).
Rest of my week will be easy efforts and another 80% Sunday. I've been trying to maximally space the 80% run and the long run to minimize injury risk. Overall, my body seems to be adapting to the increased mileage. Onward...
Khan, txs and remember, the knowing folks here are here to help you, they seem to know their stuff.
Well said VTr Guess your the proof of the pudding that this HADDing lark works
No running today as had an early start to the Ferry and the Mainland, got back around 6pm so chilled on the patio and 23 degrees C (rare in Scottyland). Hill repeats tomorrow and hope it's not so hot