HADD training plan



  • Im sure you answered this before Brian, thanks again!!!!

    The reason why I asked is because after a few ultras this year I am doing the Marine Corp Marathon.   I think 3:30 Is a big possibility maybe quicker,

    I would not want to run with the HM on so would run at the corresponding pace and try to even pace it.

  • Teknik - thanks very much for letting us know where you started.  Everyone seems so super speedy on here I imagined that you all started out running 8min miles anyway!  That makes me feel almost optimistic that I won't be forever stuck in the 10min mile category, where I've been since I started running!!  My fastest marathon is over 4 and a half hours and that was my first one image  I'd love to try again someday and be able to aim for 4.15 - still a modest target!

    10miles in glorious sunshine this morning with a 10.10 average at 143bpm.  V. pleased image

  • KhanivoreKhanivore ✭✭✭

    Rubbishrunner - i did a 4:05:54 and i think your aerobic fitness blows mine out of the water. Aerobically speaking i bet you have way better than a 4hr marathon in you right now!

  • Khanivore, thanks but I still think you're underselling yourself due to a lack of proper max HR!!

    I seem to have a big problem with endurance so I'm working on that by doing a lot of long runs at weekends.  I still haven't managed a sub 2h half!  I'm not sure whether trying again in Glasgow in October would be feasible or too soon.  Don't know if you saw my thread from last year but I was pretty despondent afterwards.  It's sort of my secret mission but not so secret now that I've declared it here image

  • KhanivoreKhanivore ✭✭✭

    Rubbish you sound determined. I'm sure you will make it! I could not run more than 2 or 3 minutes in May '12. If I can do it anyone can!

  • chickstachicksta ✭✭✭

    sheesh - I can't keep up with you lot image

    spen71 wrote (see)

    Just noticed you got 3:25 Chick.     What maxHR do you start your marathons at?  80%?  (or anyone else)

    I have no idea spen, as I never raced a mara with HM. Something to do with bits of my *ahem* anatomy getting in the way image. It's easier for the boys ...

    VTrunner wrote (see)

    Well, everyone is either on the comeback trail or firmly ripping the trail up! Well done, everyone. BeDe, way to take the first step back. And aweseome sub-LT runs Chick, Brian, and Tekimage! Tek, those are most definitely miles in the bank. I think the ones we struggle with (but manage to gut through to the end) are the best for fitness gains (to be delivered in the not too distant future) and for the end of the marathon itself.

    Chick, that is a pretty incredible progression. Before you started training for a marthathon, did you do much running? Everything I read mentions how it takes literally years to fully train ourselves for our maximum aerobic fitness. I think your progression shows that (and suggests the best it yet to come). Same with you Mace...I'm so impressed with that 3:15 for your first race.image I think the message is that all of us can use this type of training to really see our potential.

    Mace blew us all away with that mahoosive debut image. I had no running experience worth mentioning. I used to hit the treadie in the gym and sometimes plod outside but never ran to pace or HR or anything. I reckon I was reasonably fit from that gym work when I started 'proper' running in 2008. I kept no log for the first marathon but from memory I ran 11/11:30 mm in training most times.
    Good to know what's wrong with your body. I'm guilty of being really lazy when it comes to strength exercises. I know they are good for me but man, if I can get away without being injured I'd much rather not do them. I have been good this week though and done a proper core sesh and some strength stuff too image

    Khanivore wrote (see)

    Teknik that's INSPIRING! Thanks image

    Yesterday I did a conference call during my 9 mile plod. I was running so slow that I was able to talk plenty during the call and no one knew i was running. It was a proper lol moment! image

    LOL, that made me chuckle!

    6 easy miles run and 16 slow miles biked into work. It's beatiful and sunny out there. Too nice to sit in the car and better for the planet image

  • TeknikTeknik ✭✭✭

    Nice running peeps

    I had a bit of fun this morning - was supposed to be just a short recovery run, but I tried out the Hadd 200/200 instead.  As I wasn't on a track, it involved a lot of Garmin watching.  I didn't do the full 10k - in fact less than half - and ran the intervals near 5k pace, recoveries at 140% of that pace (matching Joe's ratio).  The fast one's peaked at 78%, and the HR recovered with each slow one.  Overall average pace was close to MP (which is why I guess the full 10k 200/200 is a replacement for one of the subLTs).image

  • KhanivoreKhanivore ✭✭✭

    After all the advice I received I felt it best to be open about my plans. I've done a couple of weeks of running 13:30-14:30 min/mile to keep my hr at what i thought was 71%. I'm used to the speed but i'm not sure it's for me. I'm going to spend a couple of months running at 10:30-11:00, building up my weekly mileage until i have been running 50+ miles per week for a couple of months. Once I've done that I will do the max hr test again and start over on the 70% hr training, which by the way I am a believer in.

  • Finally khan.   Run at 11,  day after day after day.    You will be able to get the miles up

  • StewartCStewartC ✭✭✭

    sounds like a plan Kani, back in January/Febuary for 75% MHR my pace was around 11:30 - 12mm for the same HR I'm closer to 10:30mm, pretty much running all my easy runs at 10:xx - 11:xx depending on the terrain and elevation, and your current times in races are better than mine

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    If HR isn't helping, then you can use pace-based estimation to get into the same region. Khani's HMP is around 8 min/mile ... which equates to 5KP of about 7:15/m ... so 10:15/m is as slow as is necessary. 13:30-14:30 min/mile is insane for a 1:45 HM runnerimage.  Based on HMP, sub-LT pace should be around 8:30-8:40/m. Given the base that's already there from VLM training, I'd suggest incorporating sub-LT sessions sooner rather than  later ... that's where the aerobic improvements really come from (and they're fun tooimage).

  • KhanivoreKhanivore ✭✭✭

    Dan - you come with a set of horns and a pitchfork! image I want to do those sub-LT runs but I think I had better get comfy with the distance first.

    Thanks Spen, Stew and Dan. I thought I was going to get booted off the thread after my last post image I just returned from an 8 mile run. My average pace was 10:20/mile and my averate heart rate was 156bpm. I talked to myself (!) now and then to ensure i could utter a sentance without gasping and all was well.

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭


    Khanivore wrote (see)

     I'm going to spend a couple of months running at 10:30-11:00, building up my weekly mileage until i have been running 50+ miles per week for a couple of months.

    Just a word of caution about the 50+ mpw from Hadd ... "joe" was an elite level runner ... and Hadd had little experience of "normal folk". He trained fast runners. His slowest runner was a lady who was a 3:30 marathoner. He said...

    "Probably the slowest runner I advise is a female who runs 22:00/5k, 45:00/10k and 3:30 marathon.  Her easy runs are about  9.00-9.15 (140-145 HR).  Unless you are PR's are like hers, I would not expect  you to be running 9.15+ mins/mile.  Or anything like it."

    "No more 11- or 10-min miles.  I wouldn't inflict those on my worst enemy.  Not  even 9-min miles (unless you are like Natalia, above, the 3.30 marathoner)."

    Keep in mind that the 50 mpw "basline" is in the context of very good runners like "joe" ... for me (a 46-year-old, 40 min 10Ker), 50 mpw is up where I can run when everything is rosy ... 60 mpw is as good as it gets) I'm happy to start sub-LTing at a lower mileage. Watch this space! image



  • Got some stats for you.  Done 12 miles down the canal path tonight.   Quite warm still so maybe Heart rate is a little higher.  My max heart rate is 190 so all around the 82%,   Next target is to get that even paced at 7:30.


    MILE               SPLIT                 AV HR                   

    1                        7.33                   148

    2                        7.31                    152

    3                        7.29                    155

    4                        7.35                    156

    5                        7.38                    155

    6                        7.42                    156

    7                        7.43                    156

    8                        7.38                    159

    9                       7.43                     156

    10                      7.37                    156

    11                      7.41                    157

    12                      7.37                    156

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Nice ILTHR run Spenimage

  • Thanks Dan.   As I am in ultra training ive just done 20 miles on very tired legs.   Phew it was hard work.

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭


  • I prefer the ultras.   And back to backs are the way I trains.

  • TeknikTeknik ✭✭✭

    Spen cracking subLT yesterday, then 20 miles this morning !image

    Club run of 6.5m for me this morning - kept a lid on it at 75% for 4m, then came a 1m hill and the HR spiked badly.  Happy overall with average 74%, and very pleased with the average 8:12mm.image

  • What sort of drift is it normal to expect over a 20 mile run?

    I started at 125 (65% max) and ended at 138 (72.5% max).   It did get a lot warmer mind

  • Dr. Dan, nice information. I think it's important to realize that most of us aren't Joe, so to speakimage. Being realistic is important.

    Yesterday was an aerobic 10 miler. It felt fast to me, but the effort was moderate and totally in control. 7:44 m/m with HR ave of 74% (148).

    Today no running...bunch of strength work.

    Heel still holding steady...time will tell.

  • KhanivoreKhanivore ✭✭✭

    Dan I do agree with you about 50mpw being a lot of mileage. However not all 50mpw's are equal. 50mpw at a slow comfortable pace is definitely less strenuous than 50mpw at a faster pace right? My plan is to get to higher volume at a slower pace. However, I am keeping a close eye on niggles and will back right off at the first sign of something new.

  • WOW I have a few days off to move home and the thread has gained pages!

    Had a quick scan through and well done to everybody on their times and recovery image

    I've moved into a 1st floor flat and for the first time in 15 years have stairs (15 steps). Moving in was a pain on tuesday and by Wednesday my calves were on fire and only eased a bit yesterday so no running since Monday.

    Today I went out for 7 miles at max 70% of HRR and realised I don't ike heat and my stamina sucks. Splits were 11:01 (50%),12:15 (66%), 11:44 (67%), 12:10 (70%), 13:09 (70%), 12:48 (69%) & 14:13 (70%). Giving 12:28 & 66% of HRR

    The course undulates a fair bit with a total incline of 794 feet and toward the end I just had to see a hill and my HHR went over 70%, even downhill at a slowish pace it would go over as well. I think tomorrows 14 mile LSR may end up as a walk image


  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Spen ... at drift seems fine to me over such a long run.

    Nice slow'un Andy.

    Khani ... 50mpw at slow pace won't do you any harm if you build ggradually.

    First LSR since the 8 week injury break ... 9 hilly miles at 68% maxHR, 10/m. Felt easy (thankfully, given the pace).

  • chickstachicksta ✭✭✭

    10mm on the hills is not bad, Dr. Dan image

    HADD definitely helps to sustain high mileage weeks injury-free. I tend to pick up a lot more niggles when I switch to P&D. One day I should experiment and marathon train just with HADD image

    spen71 wrote (see)

    What sort of drift is it normal to expect over a 20 mile run?

    I started at 125 (65% max) and ended at 138 (72.5% max).   It did get a lot warmer mind

    Sounds pretty similar to my long runs. Especially when it gets warmer as the run progresses.

    Gentle bike ride today and no running planned. Did a double yesterday. 6 miles in the morning @ 70% (legs were trashed from Friday's bike commute and strength training image) and then our annual fundraiser with the guys from work. A 2.5 mile course with some 'urban' obstacles thrown in (foot bridges, stairs and a building site full of sand image). It's not timed but I held on to the fast boys image

  • Dr Dan, the first time I can do 9 hilly miles at 68% and 10/m I'll be a happy fella so well done for your return image

    Chick, well done on the double and ride image

    Todays 14 miler turned into a walk as at about 5 miles I got a sharp pain in my right calf and couldn't shift it image It wasn't all bad as 14 miles on my feet is a first for me since my teens (4 decades ago now) and was walking amongst 100+ cyclists doing the Mull 45 mile race. Ended up with a 3:18! and just 62%.

    Fresh start tomorrow if the Calf is better and going to try and up my miles/week at a nice 70%.

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Chick ... well done on the "alternative" training!image

    Andi - take care of that calf!image

    Watched my son complete his first sprint triathlon yesterday ... I'd planned to race him there but canned that idea when the PF struck. It has given me some motivation to do one later in the summer though. Meanwhile ... plan today is another 5.5M at lunchtime (on top of my 10M of bike commuting). Got halfway to work today and realised I hadn't put on my helmetimage ... but since I'd alread descended the big hill, I decided to risk it. #ImNotaRealCyclist


  • macemace ✭✭✭

    Great to seesome solid HADD from everyone

    Dan - know the feeling .... my favourite trick is getting half way down the road before realising i've only got boxers on image. Good job i run before most of the street are out of bed

    Andy - sounds like plenty of stretching needed on that calf

    Spen - nice subLT. I'd say 13 beats at consistent pace over 20M is pretty good going. I managed about 6 beats over my 15miler yesterday which i was happy with as i only just nudged above 70% at the end but another 5M would see that climb i'm sure. It was bloody cold down our way though so i had that in my favour as well.

    Quite a happy HADDING week for me ...

    Total 52M @ 70% @ 8:27 which was made up of

    3M @ 85% @ 6:04   ( 6 * 800 intervals )

    6.5M @ 81% @ 7:14  ( Sub LT )

    42.5M @ 67% @ 8:48 ( HADD )

  • chickstachicksta ✭✭✭

    nice work, mace

    mace wrote (see)

    Dan - know the feeling .... my favourite trick is getting half way down the road before realising i've only got boxers on image. Good job i run before most of the street are out of bed

    PML ...   I rode into work last week and forgot to pack office shoes image 

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    I leave shoes at work!image

    So, having found my HRM yesterday for the LSR (I had not been using it in all the cold weather) I brought it to work and used it the 5.5M lunchtime run ... came out as 8:53/m for 70% maxHRimage ... felt stiff to start but loosened up nicely and was tempted to go further. But then I thought "footimage" and that stopped me indulging. Resting HR was 48 before I set out ... have been down to 44 before but nevertheless I'm happy with progress.

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