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HADD training plan
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Would you Adam and Eve it ! out of the blue 5 mile PB in a time of 35.09 , 55 secs improvement and I did not feel as I was going that fast, ( for me that is ).
Just need to convert this to 10 miles / half marathon now.
No stats, as I ran " as I felt like "
Heat defo making a statement on my HR..
RR bear with it mate and remember no quick fix this HADD malarkey
Txs VT, Brian and RR, am glad I stuck with HADDing now as things seem to be coming along nicely. In fact today was a 6 miler and just had the current HRR% on the Garmin with 1/2 mile timing alerts, if I had my normal dashboard of info I'd have sprinted an extra .2 miles down the hill into Tobermory as I was just 11 secs/mile off my 10k PB time and at 69% of HRR.
That said have moved away from worrying about times for a while and concentrating on HRR though did let it drift up to 79% on a hill. My other 'goal' is to get my weekly incline to equal the height of our Munro (1 of only 2 on the Western Isles). Ben More is 3169ft high so todays 468 feet is about on target
RR, fingers crossed you get things sorted soon, is the sleeping issue something you can sort? 11 min miles is good for me so would be happy with that but can understand your frustration if things have got worse for you. Yup, give it a week and see how the bloods are when they come back
Roy, that's Haddtastic! Well done
. Upward and onward with the lactate threshold
!
Roy, crossed posted early and WOW, 55 seconds off that pace is fantastic so big Congrats to you
Brian, solid base stats for the week. Just out of curiosity, how much base training do you need to get the aerobic engine firing on all cylinders after a marathon or other big race (following recovery)? For me, it seems I equate to HADD's example of someone that might need to base train for a loooong time to get where I need to be. But assuming I can get there, just wondering if 6-10 wks is enough time to get back to that top aerobic status prior to race specific training...
Roy, big up to you. Top bombing.
Vt, think everyone is different. Depends on a few things, not least
1. Experience. How long you've been running/developing the engine.
2. Your recent training. How much time on/off.
3. Your plan. How long to your target, and what sort of target (ie. Mara ultra).
6 weeks was a nice fit for me. Following a series of 3 5k races I had a gap of 6 weeks prior to a 15 week mara build-up. From experience I have a pace in mind for my 80% runs, and will hopefully get near to that over the next 3. If I don't, I may begin my mara schedule with 2 or 3 more before I move up to mp.
Good running, guys
I had a similar rough patch last year. Guess for me it was a mixture of faster HM training which eroded my aerobic base and simply doesn't work for me and iron deficiency. Are you a girl, btw? Us girls are rather prone to low iron because of the monthly youknowwhat
Been taking supplements ever since and I think it took about 6 weeks for my pace to reach normal levels again. Crossing my fingers that you get to the bottom of what's wrong. Stick with a pace that you feel comfy with. I tried sub LT running at my previous pace and felt horrid as my HR went to about 90%
Thanks Chickadee. I am a girl and I have had low iron in the past which is why I thought it was this. I'd scaled back my supplements as I'd been doing so well but it looks like I just need to keep the higher dose. Or eat more steak
I'll keep to a slower pace and convince myself I haven't actually lost any fitness. Hopefully I'll be back to full speed sooner rather than later!
Some good stats on the previous page
... and a great 5M PB for Roy!
A hilly 11.6M for me on Sunday (70% maxHR and 9:36/m) and a 3.4M run yesterday. I'd been on my feet all day at work and didn't have time for a longer/slower run, so instead went short but with 2.1M of the 3.4M "testing" the sub-LT pace region (7:44/m at 80%). Seemed okay on the foot but the legs weren't in the mood. 26M on the bike since Monday as well.
Sounds promising DrDan. Easy does it.
Sub lt run for me. Well chuffed with 7.16 pace. Although slower than my first 2, it was much warmer today.
Rubbish: that explains it then
. I firmly stuck to my supplements and -- touch wood -- the shit phase hasn't come back.
Dr. Dan: sounds hopeful!
Brian: x2 ... I was struggling. A muggy old morning with nearly 20 degrees really played havoc with my HR. Kept the average at exactly 80% but it was my slowest of the 3 I did in the past weeks. Av. pace 8:09. I guess I just have to accept that I'm 10-20 secs slower per mile when it's warm.
Chick, I think everyone is slower in the heat. Wait while next week and cooler conditions. We'll nail the quicker pace
RR, hope all gets sorted soon! oh, and may as well up the supplements and eat more steak
(oh, for some reason had you down as a guy - my apologies).
Dr Dan, very impressive numbers
Brian, 7:16? am not surprised your well chuffed!
Chick, one of the plusses (for me) of Hadding is that you can (nearly) always blame the weather for a slower than normal time
and as Brian say's, we'll all be flying when it's cooler 
Well, took an unscheduled day off yeterday as I was a bit tired so, for the first time ever I did a doubler!
This morning started badly as I changed my HRM and forgot to re-sync with the Garmin but got it sorted after a few hundred yards then muppet here just started running without restarting the timer! Honestly, I flew the first mile but sadly no proof lol. Did 3 miles on the watch and added the 4th that I missed for 4 miles @10:25 and 67%
Went out this afternoon to do 10k sub 70% HRR and see just how far away I am from my PB time (in training btw). I double (nay) triple checked my watch and set off with just the current HRR on my watch and 1/2 mile times. I didn't pay mutch attention to the split times but did see a couple of 4
* times go by and just one over 5:30. I did left my HRR slip above 70% for the hills but no walking needed to bring it back down again and got home in 63:17. It's not setting world alight but a whopping 2:39 faster then my previous PB! and, @ 68% today and 74% previously.
Think I deserve a Dram or two tonight
Andi nice mileage last week, and a nice target for the elevation change
. Well done on the latest run...great improvement.
VT nice stats on the long run - and I agree that switching routes is a good way to avoid fussing about the negatives. I've been trawling the LetsRun threads for Hadd's comments on race specific training (Phase II), and the conclusion I've reached (and I accept it's different to others here) is that for Fast Twitch types, for marathons, just carry on with Phase I unless you plateau on the subLTs...the scary interval sessions he had were for Slow Twitchers, or races shorter than a mara. From your 400m times I suspect you're FT...
Brian nice subLT pace in the heat !
RR Mrs Tek heartily agrees with Chick.
Roy nice PB, well done
. Hadd rules!
DD super low HR for that hilly Sunday run, and well done for testing the subLT pace.
Chick I think I'm going to be stalking your stats....
...SubLT for me, 1m warm-up then 9.6m at 8.09 av.pace. It took 3.5m to get over 80%, then stayed between 80% and 83% until mile 8, then started to rise out of the zone a little. Fortunately the last 0.6m was downhill. I'm a little annoyed that it's worse in pace than last week, (and still 25 secs off where I was in April), but it was hot and humid. Roll on winter
When it is warm and humid I have just accepted that I will be running slower. Gives the legs a chance to get stronger as running slower for the same HR
Hi All,
The heat finally hit out here last weekend and agree, it slows down all the runs at a given HR. As Spen says, slower time still equals the same effort (and miles) in the bank. And just think how nice we'll feel in the fall on (a cool) race day!
I've struggled a bit this week. Ran a 5 m recovery Monday (felt tired), ran 9.5 m yesterday with 7x100m striders (fun fun fun to run fast...did the 100s on the track) but bagged it 3 short of the 10 striders I was billed to do (just felt tired the whole run and wasn't recovering enough between the last few sprints), then today did 14 (deliberately kept the pace controlled with Ave HR 71% at 8:23 m/m) and this felt much better but the last two miles I kind of wilted a bit. So all in all, my HR and times are similar, but my energy level is not. I think it's a combo of lack of sleep, not eating well (or right after the key workouts), and just a lot of volume the past few months. Will see if I can address the food/sleeping and keep the runs a bit lower intensity for there rest of the week...still have 5, 11, rest, and 18 left this week.
Tek, yes, I do think I'm an FT all the way. But strangely, the P&D plan really seems to be a modified HADD document for phase I (maybe not as much deliberate sub-LT stuff, but definitely prescribing mostly aerobic runs (the MLRs, Aerobic runs, Long Runs, and recovery runs)).
VT, I suggest you go rest, 5, rest. And start again next week. Don't be a slave to the schedule. Sounds like you need a rest to me.
Tek, always think it's a good sign when it takes a while to hit your goal hr. Nice one on getting it done. Like as already been said, main thing is the effort level when the weather is not conducive to faster pace.
Andi, hope you enjoyed a wee dram last night. Congrats again on the pb.
Well so much for the warm weather. The forecast for the weekend up here in West Yorkshire is cool and showery. Opened my father day pressie last night. Only seemed right and proper that I shared it with my lad (who'd bought it). Had a couple of Jack Daniels with honey, with lots of ice and coke. Seemed appropriate as I watched England qualify for the ICC Final.
Brian - 'Rusty Nail' does it for me (Whisky & Drambuie) - hic
- sorry Andi, that probably sounds like sacrilege to a scot!
Likewise, nice sub-LTing from Chick and Tek ... not the ideal weather for those sessions but all good stuff so far as the legs are concerned.
VT ... take care
... that's a hefty schedule remaining this week and it sounds like you're getting tired. Brian's advice seems sensible.
Andi ... dram definitely warranted!
Yesterday was ... bike to work ... planned to run at lunchtime but didn't get a window ... so biked back home later and went straight out for 4 miles at 70%. Hot, hilly and on tired bike legs, it was worth more than it said on the tin. Similar work issues today and not sure when I can run ... might run 4M-ish down to the track in south Leeds late afternoon to catch my boy racing 800m, then run back to work (4M-ish), and cycle home (5M).
Interesting conversation going on with the fetchies about the LSRs. I believe these should be done below 70% but they are quoting HADD and running at 75%.
What does everyone think?
Brian,
my son gave me a bottle of JD with honey as well, not opened yet. Going to watch the Tour de France in Normandy in 2 weeks time, will have a few then waiting for them to pass by. Look out for a large Welsh flag at the start of the time trial from Avranches to Le Mont St Michel, I will be on the other end ! pissed most likely!
Spen,
with this heat I am finding letting the HR fluctuate between the both (70- 75% helps to keep the run at a fluid pace.
But in the cooler days I find it much easier to control the HR at a set level, that's just my observations!!
Spen it is interesting, as it is a mix of a number of issues...
(1) Pure Hadd, per the document - the lowest HR that Hadd got Joe to run was 140 (72.5%), on a few short recoveries, and the lowest he quoted for a long run was 145 (75%)
(2) Average versus Ceiling. This is not in the doc, and I guess that's because Joe was already a fit runner and didn't experience much drift. If I set out on a LSR at 75%, I'm going to be drifting above that after about 8 miles. So, like you, I'm a fan of trying to keep it under 70%, or lower, for as long as possible, until I give in and let myself drift to 75% (but no higher...i.e. slow down)
(3) Some of the Fetch guys are really hard-core....if I ran 50+ miles a week at 75%, plus a 10 mile sub-LT, and then did a 20 mile LR also at 75%, I'd be wrecked / injured, immediately.
Nothing wrong with training easy...slow-twitch muscle mitochondrial genesis rules
BeDe, must admit to not having heard of rusty nail. But does sound like a wicked combination (apologies andi). The wife and I are great believers in brandy and port.
Roy, enjoy thetour. I'll keep my eyes peeled for a drunken welshman.
Spen/tek, I've looked back at my log and the long runs involving effort (progressive and hard/easys) come out at ~75%. Whilst the time-on-feet long runs end up closer to 70%. So I can see both sides of the discussion
Brian, thanks for the advice. Perhaps I'll take a few days as you suggest. Before I saw your message I had already done my 5 today. Went out deliberately slow for a true recovery run. Ran 9:16 m/m with ave HR 128 (64%). That is a record low HR for me. Legs were OK (as they should have been for this effort).
Txs for all the comments/tips folks, always much appreciated
Oh, and for the record, if you want to put ice in your finest Malts then it's your call, it's just that you'll be missing out on the subtleties of said Liquor
now, a drop of tap water will enhance the flavour (room temp is, of course best).
Tek, great run and nice to see I'm not the only one that keeps an eye on how long it takes to get the HR up to the desired %, maybe next year I'll also be able to report times a bit closer to yours lol.
VT, as suggested, rest sounds a good plan and think I need one after reading about your workouts!
Brian, surely cool and showery is the best weather for HADDing? the same effort would surely produce much faster times? Or is it just the Yorkshireman and need to moan coming out
Hope you both enjoyed your Drams?
No worries BeDe, as above, each to their own and not a Scot, just chose to Live up here
A less interesting drink when I have a cold is hot lemonade but seems to help things though diffucult to see when it gets to the boil in the pan
Dr Dan, am sure those 7.15/m miles will be back again soon with your training
how did your boy do in his race?
Spen, Tek, am always asking the same question re %'s but now settled on (trying) to run @70-72% and let it slide up a bit on hills whilst still slowing and recovering on downhills to keep the average below 70% - it seems to be working for me at the moment so shall stick with it a while longer.
Brian, I must admit that when I get a cold I look forward to going out and buying 1/4 bot of brandy and a half bot of Port - 1 glass - I find it a kill or cure remedy and always manage to sleep well afterwards
Quick question folks, still 14 weeks to my marathon and have the Mull Half in 7 weeks, I plan (nay hope) on running this in 2:20 (Hal H's time if I want a 4:55 Mara). I'm happily plodding around at 70% HRR but should I start to do some 80% runs before the half?
VT, Snap!! I ran what turned out to be recovery yesterday. 8.34 miles in 68:50. I was aiming to stay below 70% and had no problems doing that the way my legs felt. 8:15 pace for HRav 116 (63.1%). This is the lowest I've seen since April.
Andi, I am heavily involved in cricket. I am VP at the local cricket club, I coach the juniors and I watch my son play in the 1st team. So when it comes to the weekend I am begging for some sunshine.
Before I offer an answer to your 80% question, I have a few questions for you: 1. remind me how long you have been hadding? 2. I know you can't run flat where you are but presumably you run similar routes - how has your 70/75% pace improved since starting? 3. Has there been any plateauing of paces? 4. How many runs do you do a week and how much time spent running per week?
Rest day for me today as I have a funeral to attend. Will do 2.25 hrs on saturday morning and hope to sneak a shortish run in on Sunday afternoon.
Hadd does say 70% maxHR in places outside his "document".
HADD (http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=2357345&thread=2357345):
"In time it's possible for you to run a marathon averaging 168-170 HR the whole way (based on your 191 HRmax).
Right now you know you cannot hold that effort for that long, but it'll come with training.
Your easy running should be ~70% HRmax. So for you that means low-130s HR (say 130-135). Right now, that probably feels like walking and you don't want to go "that slow", but I would suggest you work down to it over time.
Right now you can keep your HR under 145 for a long run, once you find this easy to do (ie: the pace doesn't feel maddeningly slow) try keeping the HR under 140 for long stretches (although you can let it climb on uphills, but once on the flat again at the top, once again bring the HR under control).
Two days per week do this:
Tue: a session at 150-155 HR (~80% HRmax)
Fri: a session at 155-160 HR (~85% HRmax)
The Tues session can start at 2 x 15 mins (as you are doing) and slowly build up along these lines as you get more and more comfortable at that effort:
2 x 15 mins, 2 x 20 mins, 3 x 15 mins, 1 x 30 mins, 30 mins + 15 mins, 1 x 40 mins, 35 mins + 15 mins, 1 x 45 mins...
There is no need to take every step I give above, but slowly try and increase the amount of time you can run at 150-155. Take a relaxed 3-5 mins jog break in between each long rep.
The Fri session you can begin shorter;
2 x 8-10 mins with 3-5 mins jog break. Then build to 2 x 12 mins, 2 x 15 mins, etc. Don't be in a hurry to build, let the physical adaptations happen in your muscles and it will get easier and easier as the weeks go by.
You should find that as well as you gaining the ability to go longer and longer at this effort level, that the pace at these HRs improves over the weeks. But don't get too anal about whether each session is faster than the week before, just get the work in. Improvement is not linear.
Give it 6 weeks at these effort levels (increasing the length of the reps over the six-week period), and then post up again.
Do a 10 min jog warm up before each session. Some simple stretches and 3 x 100m strides with 60 secs jog break) and then begin."
Andi ... I think 80% maxHR training is very useful for a HM but whether it's a good idea for you depends on other factors as alluded to by Brian's questions.
Yesterday's plan panned out ... after cycling to work (5M)... and working
... I left at 4pm and ran to South Leeds Stadium (3.7M), watched the boy smash his 800m PB by 5s (now 02:27), ran back to work (3.7M) and then cycled home (5M). Running was a bit faster than my usual easy pace but came out at bang on 75% maxHR and bang on 9/m.
Wow DrDan! Sonny jim is doing you proud.That's a great session at this stage in your comeback. Keep up the good work!
DD thanks for that link
- it certainly clears up where the 70%max came from. I don't feel so Hadd-lite now. Nice run and well done to your son