HADD training plan

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  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    We get so little sun in Leeds, I'm likely to remain chalkyimage... and vit D deficientimage!

    13.1M along the canal today (including a stop to chat with Brian along the wayimage)  ... came out at a very low 67% maxHR (117 bpm average), and consequently slow at about 10/m. That's my LSR done 2 days early ... a missed run yesterday (kids' sports day duties) meant fresh legs, and coupled with MrsD wanting us to do a car boot sale at the crack of dawn on Sunday (my running slot), it meant that it made sense to get it done today. And as I spent 5 hours in work last Saturday, I didn't feel too guilty about taking an extra long lunch break. Good to get 2+ hours on my feet.

  • Txs Brian and Chick, he's reported as 'comfortable' though still not sure when he'll be allowed home. He spent his 81st Birthday in Hospital and Mum spent her 78th in the same place when she broke her hip image

    As for tanning, we had our Summer a few Sunday's agoimage I have the T-shirt line and darker knees to the rest of my legs and that's about it.

    Well done on your runs Dr.Dan and Brian and nice to know you can do a bit of flexi running Danimage

    Nice run Chick and good to know you don't 'need' the HRM image

    VTr, nice that your legs tell you when it's run time image

    Brian, I chose an 18 week plan, added 3 weeks to it (illness/injury) then chose to basically ignore it! apart from the Sat mileage and Sunday LSR.

    I know it's only 28th June but it's unlikely I'll be out again this month so, 123 Miles run in 5 minutes under 24 hours! avg pace was 11:37 @69%HRR. Thats a whopping 53 miles further than last month (which was the longest this year) and just 4 secs/miles slower than last month but things improved in the second half so will smash the pace next month am sure even though I'm away for almost 3 weeks.

    Goals for July, hmmm, would like to break 100 miles for the Month, 11:10 min miles and sub 70%HRR.

     

     

  • Andi - do you have to make any adjustments to your % of MaxHR when using the Karvonen formula? i.e does 65% using Karvonen = 70% for max HR?

    If I take my my stats using Karvonen formula 70% comes out at 145bpm whereas using MaxHR 70% = 127 bpm. I know HADDing works off MaxHR but does this mean that you may be working too hard on your runs (or have you already made that adjustment when you post figures?). 145 bpm using MaxHR for me would be 80%, so if I was using the Karvonen formula I would be training too hard if using HADD.

    Does that make sense?image

     

  • Today I set out on my 18 mile LR with 10 at MP. Took it very easy for first 8, then gradually upped the pace. Was shooting roughly for 7:25 per mile. The first few miles were a bit slow and my HR didn't get up to the 160 (80%) level, but then I got there and stayed there (18th mile is a mystery to me as my watch beeped out a 7:13 so I paused and drank some water then resumed my cool down...but must have not quite hit 18 so it tacked on more time). Was 95% humidity here but not too hot (but still could feel the humidity). The cool things today were that my legs and body didn't feel beat up at all over this high mileage run (whereas last week they did), that I was able to do a 10 mile subLT after an 8 mile warm upimage, and that my paces were in line for my planned MP (I think I might do better than this come fall though). Glad to have these miles in the bank though...am feeling pleasantly tired right now.

    /members/images/718815/Gallery/6-30-13.jpg

     

  • First 70% run tonight.  Can see what people mean about it being more shuffling than running.  Only 50 minutes which I know doesn't compare and my speed of 12.30/mile kept me at an average of 72% which I was pleased with. 

    Given my knee issues haven't fully resolved themselves I was wondering if cross training was an acceptable alternative to pounding the pavement/park?

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    VT ... GREAT long run! image ... things are looking good.

    sub ... always risky to train if you're genuinely injured. However, it may be that the 12:30/m runs result in a lot less "pounding".

    Andi ... BeDe is correct ...using 70% HRR (heart rate reserve or working heart rate) rather than 70% maxHR results is running too hard in Hadd terms. 70% HRR for me is 136 bpm whereas 70% maxHR is 123 bpm. If I was running at 70% HRR, it would be 78% maxHR which is closer to sub-LT than to easy.

    So, having done my LSR on Friday, I only had to slot in a 7 miler to bring up the first 40 mpw since end of March (plus another 41 on the bike). Did it with my son ... he forgot he was going to be running and ate a Mars Bar 20 minutes beforeimage, so we had to go pretty slow as he had some gut issues after a few milesimage. Consequence was a 67% maxHR run. That brought up 133 miles for June, with another 175 miles on the bike.

  • Good long runs DrDan, VT et al.

    Andi, well done on upping the mileage last month. You should be able to consolidate that in july.

    Chick, the temptation for me would have been to can the tempo so credit to you for riding bareback. 

    15miles on Saturday am incl parkrun. Rest (drinking/watching cricket) day yesterday. 64miles for the week. Last week of base coming up. 90min runs planned for mon/wed/fri, 70mins tues/thurs and 2.25hrs sat. Should bag ~70miles.

  • TeknikTeknik ✭✭✭

    Work has been mad, so sorry for not reading back properly...

    VT awesome long runimage.  In answer to your question (a way back) the subLT's are still not comfortable - despite being 25 secs slower than where I got to in April.  I might dial it back to 80% for a while...

    Andi hope your dad gets better soon

    I ran a hot and hilly 10k yesterday - couldn't even hold on to HM pace, and as the route went past the car park at 3.5m I caved and DNF. image

    Week's stats : 65.3m in 9h38, 8:51 av. pace @ 70% avg.maxHR.  Broke 1500m ytd...

  • Brian - great mileage! - surely you must be that 'aerobic monster' now!image

    VT - same for you surely - fantastic stats!! Dr Dan - your foot seems to be on the mend now?

    Sub60 - welcome, HADDing should help reduce the risk of injury so think about the long term goal of being able to continue training, not necessarily about pace at this stage (although we all do it - human nature!)

    3 weeks left in spine brace - will then start cycling and slowly build up some weekly time, then mix in some gentle short runs and see how I go. Had started cycling previously but was banned by doc!

    Dr Dan - you mentioned…"70% on the bike should be very easy .... you'll have a lower HRmax on the bike, so it doesn't equate well with running." I agree about the lower HRmax, I've noticed that before, but isn't 70% still just that - my heart will be working at that rate irrespective of the sport? Any thoughts? - I don't want to be biking for ages, but I might have to for a while.

    Andi - sorry, missed the post about your Dad - hope he is on the mend.

    Tek (and everyone) - thx for all your good wishes.

     

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    BeDe ... it's a bit different on a bike because it's harder to get to max ( as you're sitting and not moving your body-weight off the ground). I have done the CTS field test imageimageimage on a turbo trainer and it came out with an average of 151 bpm on the second 8 min interval ... "tempo" riding would be 88-90% of this, so 133-136 bpm. I think this would be the sub-LT equivalent which, for me, would be 145 bpm maxHR when running. So perhaps something like 10 bpm lower on the bike for the same effort level?

  • Hi Gang!

    Am having intermittent web access at my parents so not been on for a few days (nor run).

    Dad is comfortable thanks but has a bladder infection as well now but it's hoped he can come home Friday.

    BeDeDr.Dan, the Max HR or HRR was something I'd asked in several places and am sure I asked here as well but never got a definitive reply but yes, what your saying does make sense. Tis about 12 weeks till my marathon now, do people think I should slow things right down again and go back to 70% of MAX HR and maybe do a couple of shorter runs at the equiv of what I had 'thought' was right? Am now worried that all my training has been wasted (even though am sure it wasn't).

  • About halfway through my day I noticed my achilles is sore and a bit swollen. Damn. Hopefully some icing/rest will remedy. At least this is my recovery week.

     

    Andi, not sure what to tell you. You are pretty far along now so maybe just stick with what you have been doing, especially as you seem to be making nice improvements. Perhaps switch over to maxHR after this race?

  • Andi - I would agree with VT - whatever you are doing seems working and I didn't mean to upset the apple cart or add any confusion - apologies image. I was just looking up the formula as it had been mentioned and noticed the difference when I applied it to my stats. Certainly if I was on a plan I think I'd want to stick with it and then re-evaluate after. Brian might have a take on this?

    Dr Dan - CTS test - just looked at it - no thanks!!image ha - almost as bad as the 2400m HADD test. Anyway - I don't want to be biking much so I'll just use it to get a little fitness back. I estimate actually starting to run again at the beginning of August (trying to be sensible about this).

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Andi ... 12 weeks!! imageimage image. I assume you are going to be putting in some very long LSRs over the next 8 weeks, so I'd consider trying to get closer to 70% maxHR on those runs. To be honest, I'd have really struggled to run close to 70% maxHR when I first started running.

    VT ... take care mate and take a rest if required ... "better to be 10% undertrained than 1% overtrained".image

    BeDe - I wasn't really suggesting doing the bike test image ... only that my conclusion afterwards was that HR/effort comparisons are very different compared with running.

  • chickstachicksta ✭✭✭

    Jeepers, Andi - only 12 weeks. Shock, horror image! Like the others said - if it ain't broke don't fix it. Things have been going really well for you in terms of improvement so stick with it.

    VT: wot a brilliant run the other day image sorry to hear it upset the achilles. Rest up.

    BeDe: as you were mentioning the 2400m test - is anyone on here doing it? Tried it twice but soon gave up. Too much hassle what with driving to the track and more often than not the weather is shit anyway... at leat that's my excuse image

    Brian: brilliant weekly mileage image 

    8.5 easy miles for me today - av. HR 71%, av. pace 8:27

  • Andi, I would like to echo what VT and BeDe have said. In the words of a fellow freddite keep on keeping on. There's really no secret to marathoning at our level other than consistency. I can't help with whr as I have absolutely no experience of it. You are on an improvement curve currently, try not to jeopardise that by experimenting at this stage. 

  • Well, I am struggling to consistently keep my pace low enough at the moment, but am still trying!

    Just for info, my measures MHR is 186, so 75% (my current aim for consistency) is 140. 70% is 130, but I only seem to be able to get that slow when helping pace my partner image as I need to be below 14:00mm to get there.

    Last nights run was 7 miles at around 12:00mm for 144 (77%MHR) althogh on the flat parts, which there are not many of, I was comfortably below 140. The hills, always put the rate up, but I have noticed recent weeks that it doesnt go up as much as it used to, so I guess thats a small improvement!

    I find it quite hard to keep a comfortable form at this slow speed, but having followed this thread for a while, it seems all beginners at HADD have the same problem? I will keep at it tho, as I really want the aerobic/endurance base built up.

    Any suggestions as to how to comfortably keep this very low speed going? Should I really walk if it goes over 75% or just try and slow even more? I guess the fact that I can do the extra slow pace with my partner means its all in my mind why I cant slow down on my own image

  • TeknikTeknik ✭✭✭

    BeDe only 3 weeks left - great newsimage

    RR sounds like a good plan

    Sub60 welcome

    Spen that's some pace improvement over 6 monthsimage

    DD nice bunch of running and cycling last week.

    Andi hope they let your dad out soon. Only 12 weeks left until mara day!

    VT take care of that Achilles.  Roller and massage too...

    Chick nice pace at 71%image.  I did a couple of the 2400 tests when I started, but now I just think they are a "hard" day without having much of a point.  Better indicators are the subLT pace and average beats per mile, imho.

    Brian wise wordsimage

    Cheesy what's your 5k pb pace?

     

    13.1m for me this morning, mostly sub70% max but a few blips uphill.  SubLT run tomorrow...

     

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Stick at it Cheesy .. it's a frustrating phase but it passes.image

    Andi ... what 's the training schedule looking like over the next 12 weeks? I know everyone is saying to just keep going as you are ... but if you plan some 18 and 20+ runs, these may not be such a good idea at 78-80% maxHR given that you've never been in that territory before. It may be that you should think about sub 75% maxHR for those runs.

    Bike commute and sub-LT today. 7.55M total with 6.25M at 82% maxHR which came out as 7:32/m. 1 mile longer than last weeks' first sub-LT session ... 18 s/mile quicker at a slightly lower HRimage. Seeing pace drift but not too bad. Onwards and upwards...

     

  • My PB 5k pace is about 8:15, but this is measured as the first 5k on longer runs. I have never done a timed 5k race as such and probably never will image

  • Chick -  I can ALWAYS think of an excuse not to do the 2400m testimage In fact so much so that I've NEVER done oneimage

    Cheesy - keep going, you are right it is the same for most people who start HADDing AND yes the fact that your HR doesn't go as high on the same hills IS an improvement. That was the first sign for me when I started that things were changing physiologically. HADD suggests adding 3mins to your 5K pace initially - you could use that as your bench mark for pace and over time the HR will come down given enough time on your feet. Just don't over do it if that pace pushes the HR too high - 75% would be OK initially

    Dr.Dan - those subLT runs are really having an effect now - quicker AND lower HR.

    Tek - counting the daysimage

  • Thanks for the advice everyone. I have the day off and have literally been seconds from putting on my shoes and going out. The Achilles feels much better today but still a bit tight. I'm a rock...no running todayimage. But I have to tell you, my legs are tingling (begging for a run)image.

     

    Chick, that's a nice pace for the easy run. And Dr. Dan, holy shit man, you are on fire. I think you are my role model for biking as a means to xtrain next time I'm shelved. You must be feeling pretty good right nowimage.

    Might as well dump last months stats: 228.9 miles in 2:30:57 @ ave pace 8:07 m/m @ HRave 142 (71%).

    My progression has been January (170 miles), Feb (116), March (171), April (147), May (216). I should have looked at this earlier. I think I may have jumped a bit too much in mileage but so far holding it together.

  • Forgot to say - Bede stick it out it'll go in a flash.

    VT, thats great mileage. Good month banked. Be sensible with the achilles. Protect what you have.

    Tek, do you get psyched up for the sub-lt? (I do). Mine tomorrow too. After yesterdays  run I am full of expectation.

    DrDan, you are making very sensible, gradual progress. You are in good shape and it won't take long for you to reach a peak. Is the foot fully recovered? Do you still feel it?

    Cheesy, BeDe's advice is spot on. 

    Chick, that is a typically understated easy run. I can feel the contentment across the water. You are in very good shape. The warm weather training is doing you good. 

  • Cheesy we seem to be in the same place.  Have just started hadding (which must be a word now) and have found the slow pace a struggle on anything not flat.  Found nice stretch of canal path today and managed 5 miles at 12mpm without needing to walk to lower my HR.

    Reading the many pages of this fred has convinced me to just stick with it and find the slowest music on my phone to run to as anything else makes me run too fast

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Nice controlled running sub!image

    Brian/Tek ... I definitely get psyched upimage for sub-LT sessions!

    Big miles VTimage ... just be sensible!

     

    Brian ... yes, I can still feel the foot a certain points in the day ... usually when I've been sitting a while or first thing in the morning, but not when it's warmed up or when I'm running. Actually, it may be a good thing to still detect it as it keeps me sensible (e.g. I didn't race my boy over 3000m last Sunday ... he clocked 11:16, so good job too!).

    Meanwhile, I got drenched on the bike home ... image.

  • Hi all, everyone seems to be doing well and will try to catch up properly when I get home (Dad seemed more 'with it' today so fingers  crossed).

    Cheesy, as everybody suggests, your on the right track and things will get better! Like sub I'm quite new to hadding but a few months further down the line - it does work image When I started I was walking up everything that even looked like an incline and can now get over most of the smaller hills.

    So, after the thread yesterday and before I'd read all your replies (thanks muchly) I reset my Garmin HR alarm to vibrate at 72% of MAX HR not HRR. A culmination of 3 days off, a new, flatter route (just 400ft incline/decline) and a nice cool morning saw me run 6 miles @10:56mm and 68% of MAX (HRR equiv is 56%). I'm going to try the same route tomorrow if I get time to see if it was a fluke but am sure I'll be struggling when I return home so will wait and see.

     

  • I get psyched up for the subLTs...the splits on those first 3 miles either fill me with confidence or dread...

  • TeknikTeknik ✭✭✭

    DD well done on the subLT - nice improvement on several frontsimage. Well done to juniorDD too...

    Cheesy - agree with BeDe

    VT impressive stats for the month !

    Sub60 nice idea re the musicimage. I also find that avoiding hills as much as possible, avoiding club runs, not dreaming about the sprint finish etc all help in keeping the HR down in the early stages...

    Brian the subLTs are becoming a bit of a psychological issue now - when things were improving week on week it was all easy. Now I'm trying to get back to where I was, it has become a weekly nightmare...

    Andi nice run !  I bet that's a "holy cow" step-changeimage

    My SubLT went ok, interrupted by a schoolboy error on the Garmin. After 4 miles I looked down to check the average pace, which was awful, but I quickly realised that I had failed to reset the watch after the warm-up.  After tidying up the data, I averaged 8:02mm for 7m with the later miles flattening out below 80%.  So 3 secs faster and 4 beats lowerimage Bosh. Job done.

     

  • Well at least I know its not just me image and will keep at it. 

    I'm going to try my Bewl route tonight, got a 7 mile easy out n back to do, this is rougher ground but flatter, and not as many mossies chasing me.. I'll set my app to yell at 140 again, and see how it goes.

    Hills can be difficult for me to avoid, and as Beachy is very hilly, I do need to keep working at them, so wont be able to stay 'pure' to the HR on those. Even Bewl, the full circuit has a few real b****s of hills.

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