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I actually do think my HR was high before I started. Normally it is about 69/70 when I start out, yesterday it was 79/80. I lost the most time on the first 2 sets, compared with HADD test 1 and 2.
However I need to move on as I am starting the Hal Higdon marathon plan (intermediate 2) in preparation for a spring marathon. I will definitely go back to HADD, especially when planning to increase my mileage at any time in the future.
I think HADD is a great training plan, especially when building up mileage and wanting to try and get 2 runs a day in. It is low cost in terms of effort and putting stress on your body. I am really surprised that the results are not better for me. On the final set (150HR) I really felt much fitter and stronger and faster than previous runs and yet my time was slower (just a few seconds) despite my AHR being higher than previous tests. HADD has allowed me to increase the effort I am putting in.
My final takeaway is that currently ~145 is 8:00m/m pace which is what I am targeting for a marathon - that is 85% of my MHR which I think is considered sustainable for a marathon.
JB - I'm so sorry that the hard training you've done wasn't reflected in your Hadd test. But maybe your higher than normal HR before the start is partly responsible.
I'm sure the training you've done will pay off when you race your marathon. Don't forget to let us know how you get on
Forgot to say - Bluenose, thanks for the link. Really enjoyed the read. It expands on the Hadd document, and reiterates the principles in a more easier-to-read explanation. Some interesting questions too. I had realised that it was very similar to Lydiard in many ways, with a few tweaks, but more importantly (especially to the inexperienced runner) less emphasis on mileage. It seems that Hadd, although very conscious of the mitochondrial development over time, did not advocate high mileage. It seems he was a listen-to-your-body person, and there was no shame in missing a session or 2 if tired.
Hoping to step up my base training now, hoping to add a weekly 80% session. Have a social meeting up at the track next Thursday too. Planning on doing a few "easy" 400s (target marathon pace of course!)
Brian... Glad you found the link useful.... Like i said earlier, I've read a lot of stuff on HADD training (am not anal, just like to confirm the benefits before committing to something), and the impression I got was John HADD seemed a bit pissed off in the way his training seemed to be mis-understood...
Most of us realise that the "HADD Approch Doc" with Joe and all that, is just about base training, but sometime's the confusion is, because of the high mileage (didn't Joe operate around 80. 100+ per week), that its some sort of marathon training... The reason for this according to John HADD, is when moving onto HADD 11(a) (5k to HM training) or HADD 11(b) (marathon training), that these programme's are so severe, that without the proper base training the body wouldn't coup......
Good luck with the move up to 80% session's..... Would like to get another race in before end of year, but don't think its going to happen... So will have to be content with the 75min @ 130HR sessions.....
Only been able to manage 50mins on each of my last 2 runs, work getting in the way which is wrong on far too many levels. Did the same route on each, yesterday and today, pretty much trail all the way. Yesterday, a bit damp underfoot and no problem, today was like running through a river as the gales and heavy rain the UK had recently has hit the Fatherland. I must say though, felt like a kid splashing through the water, great fun.
Otherwise, training is going well and looking forward to the xmas break so I can get plenty more running in. I'm sure the OH won't mind.
Excellent link bluenose gives the hadd training programme in a more clear way . Patience is the game with hadd , as it says can take any were from 3- 5 months for a good dose of hadd depending on experience. I have been doing hadd now for 7 weeks and have seen a vast improvement on my times at an average heart rate of 140 they are 1min a mile quicker now from when i first started, and i feel alot stronger and able to run alot further . But at the beginning it hurt to run slow and everything ached , but now no pain and i feel i could go again after every run .
I am going to continue with hadd for as long as possible to get a good base so when i start another dose of hadd it wont take as long to build up to a good aerobic state.
Fellow hadders patience seems to be the key keep it going and enjoy.
Hi All - time for 'Update #2' after 3 weeks... and what an excellent week it's been: despite taking 2 days off for partying purposes (too busy organising the works Xmas bash on day one and too hung over to run on day two ) I still managed to crack 33 miles for the calendar week and have seen my steady pace drop to about 10.30min/m.
I suspect my greatest achievement to date is to be able to sit here feeling really fresh on the back of a 10 day period (including today) during which I have run (in minutes) 95/-/95/45/60/-/-/60/90/45 for a total of over 45 miles. So, in sum, I reckon this HADD thing is definitely working! I may not be covering as much ground as others at my 70-75% LAHR pace, but I am going that little bit further each time for the same amount of effort as my runs progress. Moreover, no way would my legs have coped with running for a total of 8 hours in 10 days at my pre-HADD training paces...
I can also report that I have a convert... my missus and a friend came out with me on Sunday (for my LSR) and both found the pace really refreshing. Needless to say, my other half has asked for an HRM in her stocking this year so that she can persuade her small 'running crew' to ease back the pace to something more productive when they all get back together in the new year.
So, I now have three more weeks of the simple base stuff left to do, followed by a week of taper, before I start to build in my twice weekly aerobic 'work sessions'... as per Brian's earlier advice which dovetails neatly into the various 'levels' of the HADD plan outlined in Bluenose's link above (for which, thanks, BN, I really enjoyed scanning the 'fred'). For fear of boring the proverbials off you all, I will endeavour to keep you informed of my progress.
If I have one slight concern having read BN's link, it is that with my Marathon on 18 March, I might have come at this slightly too late. However, beggars cant be choosers and even if I do no more than take my current 70-75% pace to Rome and run it for 26.2 miles, it still equates to a 41/2 hour 'first' marathon... and I reckon to be able to do a damn sight bettter than that with 13 weeks still to go!
Ciao Ragazzi - let me take this opportunity to wish a Buon Natale to you and your loved ones!
L33 - and even if you haven't done as much Hadd training as you would have liked, you're still on for a PB at Rome as it's your first marathon
Great update too. Happy Xmas
Greetings, HADDers, I have returned from the dead (or a couple of weeks out with manflu as it's also known )
My times have only just started picking up to where they were before my bug and I've decided not to test myself on known routes for a while. I'm getting plenty of mileage in (I'm back to 40+ per week which is unprecedented for me, I'm generally injured above 25mpw) and now just running for time, preferably off-road wherre possible. The pace is about 10:30- 11:30 min miling, depending on the amount of mud or stiles; my long run is over 2 hours again. It's all going well.
It looks like that's been the case for most on here, which is always good to see!
Morning all. Crash, I always think 2 hours is a milestone in this type of training. Once you start to do the 2hr long runs everything else moves up a gear.
I did my 80% run yesterday, and very happy with the results. Ran to the first marker on the canal as part of a ~10min warm-up. From the marker, ran out for 35mins, turned and ran back to the same mark at the same HR.
Total 12.37 miles in 90:39 (7:20pace/HRav=144)
Out 5.04M 35:18 7:01 pace HRav 150
Back 5.04M 35:23 7:02 pace HRav 150
This week will be my first big week marathon training. Track on Thurs eve, and then 20miler on Saturday morning.
Shades - good point re PB; I like the way you think!
Brian - great stats; I can only dream of steady 7min mile'ing! I'm interested to see what my 80% runs yield when I incorporate them from the 3rd week in January (I have to say that sub 9min/m would be good...)
That's what I'm hoping, Brian 7 min miling with no drift and a constant pace is brilliant; if I could end up with those figures, I'd be happy!
I'm sticking with 75% as my target max pecentage for the next month or two as the fields are wet and muddy, so it's hard to get it down to 70%...I reckon that in March I'll look at doing most of my runs at 70% and throw in a couple a week at 80%.
HI Sneglen...... Training programes can be adapted to suit individual circumstances.... You'll know personally whats best for you.... But the bottom line is, doing something like HADD (even if you have to adapt the mileage to 40/45 per week), is a lot more rewarding than doing nothing.....
I'm seven weeks into HADD, and my average weekly mileage is 62km's (39ish mile), and I've seen a lot of improvements... But also the furthest I've raced is 10km, with a view to may be doing a HM later next year.... No marathon's for this person...... Not now their called snickers...
Sneglen, I would equate 50mpw to about 7hrs running. So this is what I would suggest you build towards. You are doing 4.75 hrs at the moment, I would increase by about 20mins each week, which should see you at 7hrs in about 6 or 7 weeks. I wouldn't up the intensity until you feel comfortable at over 6hrs per week. I personally would stick at 65-70% whilst you up the time on your feet. This will ensure that you do not get overtired whilst in this period of increase. From what you have told us in the past, I think that 70% is very slow, but it will get faster as you up the time and develop those mitochondria. Try not to think about miles or pace, concentrate on time and HR.
Bluenose, Probably a good time to post 2011 stats and 2012 goals:
2011 - Stats:
13 races, no pbs . High 2:55:59 at Abingdon, Low missing 3 months training with PF.
2012 - Goals:
Spring - pb at marathon (2:54 currently).
Autumn - EITHER sub-60 10M (60:30), or sub-80 HM (80:45)
There..... I said it.
Goals for myself...... More sub 20min 5k's (done one last in 2011 19-59)... Sub 40 for 10km... And if I think I could do a sub 1.30 for HM then I'll enter one..... All very achieveable, me thinks!!!!
Come on Guys don't be shy... Whats going to put a big smile on your face in 2012.... Lets keep it about running, they may be kids watching.....
2012 targets for me:
1 sub 3:30 marathon at Stratford2 sub 3:15 marathon at Stratford3 finish Severn Challenge in June
My marathon PB is 3:47 and taking it down to sub 3:15 is a huge reduction, but I've never trained this seriously for running before. Only once have I had 4 consecutive 100+ mile months and these were a) just over 100 and b) done with some 20 mile runs; I'm now hitting well over 100 mile months with a long run of no more than 14 miles.
Admittedly, I was in good general shape at the time as I was training for IM triathlon, so there were a lot of bike and swimming miles in there too.
I'm also losing weight (no intention of doing so this month, but I'm 10lb lighter than three months ago) so my VO2 max should be improving; unfortunately, I also had several pulmonary emboli after completing the Transalpine Run last year, so my lungs have some (ill-defined amount of) residual scarring.
How good could I be with another 4 months of 100 miles a month behind me? I guess I'll be finding out.
CH... I was curious to when that race was... And the live clock on the web page informed me it was in 128 days 10 hours 22 mins 29 secs, brill!!!! Good luck with the training....
No running for me over the past 4 days, 3 days away with the family and 1 day in work which got in the way. So it'll be 60-70mins at the crack of dawn tomorrow to start the week.
Stats for 2011 have shown improvements across the board, so it's been a good year
1457miles covered to date as I work towards a 1500mile target, which I may just miss. It's not the priority though.
10K PB 44.10, 34secs off a PB that had stood for 2 years
HM PB 1.38.10, 6mins off Indian Queens in 2010. There was a lot of down hill in this one though
2 marathons, Mittelrhein in May in 4.28.41 - a 13min PB. Blew up at 23miles then Frankfurt in Oct in 4.11.56, a 16min PB and my most satisfying running experience to date
Targets for 2012 - Continue the progress, consistent training and hope to break the 4hr barrier at either Dusseldorf in April or Cologne/Frankfurt in October and see what improvements are possible in 10K and HM.
Merry Xmas everyone!!!!
Didn't run today, but ran 20miles yesterday. Hilly road too - 2hrs 40. Happy with that. Don't feel guily having stuffed myself today.