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really excited as I managed to run last night to my target heart rate (well as close to it for me to feel excited). I went out for a 45 min run and managed an average heart rate of 148 (73% MHR) and was running an average page of 10.05.
I am heading to the gym tonight to see how I manage on the treadmill, I find it easier to run slow on the treadmill (although I have treadmill running) so expect I should find it easier to keep the heart rate down. Something of an experiment.
Laureate has sent me his training plan for the marathon which looks perfect so am treating this week as week 1 of that. I am excited by the fantastic progress that everyone else is making and looking forward to the journey. I hope everyone elses training is going well.
think i am getting the hang of this 45 mins tonight average heart rate 138 (69%) at 10.43 min mile pace. Just delighted to be running at the lower heart rate. Now to rack those miles up
Hi dp, Do you set hte gradient to 1% (or 1.5%) on the treadie? This replicates the flat outside more realistically.
Great that you are corresponding with Laureate, as the enthusiasm will rub off, and the comparison comes out pretty similar. I can see a little friendly rivalry in the offing
Oh, some training to report too. Yesterday did my key session - 90mins with middle 70@80%. Despite it being very windy (in my face on the way out) I managed 6:57 pace. This is after doing 7:01 pace in much better conditions on 20th December. Looks like the base work since November is starting to work.
Brass Monkey HM a week on Sunday. Going to run it at MP.
Hi all, on the back of Brian's latest comments, something else I have just learnt, which I am all too happy to pass onto dp is the importance of diet .
Had a pretty frustrating and depressing day yesterday with worse than normal aching thighs during my easy hour run. My pace (and heart rate) wasn't far off normal, but it just felt like harder work than it should be and not a great deal of fun (which is wrong!). Up until then, I had put my occasional aches down to normal exercise fatigue (muscles getting worse before they get better and all that), though I was getting slightly concerned that after 6 weeks, my legs did not appear to be as strong as they should have been. I just couldn't put my finger on it...
... I can now - NOT ENOUGH CARBS IN MY DIET!
Having done a great deal of research into the possible causes over my lunch break (ok, perhaps a bit in work time too ) I am now absolutely convinced it is diet. My legs simply are not getting the glycogens they need to sustain the level of training I am now doing. After 20 or so cumulative miles for the week, they were clearly pi55ed off yesterday and decided to let me know! Problem is, as a newbie, I rather naively thought that I could just 'up' what I was eating to offset the the amount of calories I was burning, without changing the balance of my diet. I didn't realise that there was an accepted minimum daily carb intake of 65-70% of that diet. Having done my research, as an 85kg male, requiring 600g of carbs a day (100 of which from proteins), that equates to the following 'servings' (in DRA terms): 15 x grain; 6 x fruit; 6 x veg; and 5 x low fat dairy. I'm not getting anywhere near that and clearly my fat reserves are starting to run out. I'm not complaining about the loss of middle aged spread, but I am going to have to do something about it.
First thing I've done is take 2 days off running before my LSR on Sunday, during which I shall pig-out on complex carbs (plus one or two glasses of less complex ones ). Then, when I get back from skiing in two weeks (during which I am going to switch off from Marathon training altogether) I shall tailor my intake accordingly. Hopefully, I may even see a rather more radical improvement in my performance - who knows how much my carb intake might have been holding me back?
As the saying goes, you learn something new everyday...
Hello again, I've only done 4 training runs so far and am already seeing improvements, I'm running 50 minutes a day at 70-75% and for the first time since I've been running I'm really keen to go out every night.
Just one question though, if I'm running 50 mins daily, what time would be suitable for my long run?
As I've been absent from this thread for a little while I've had some catching up to do and some really interesting reading from the recent posts.
dprovan - great news that you are already showing improvements. Personally I wouldn't run if my RHR is 10+ or had a heavy cold, but you've recovered now so all is OK
L33 - wow, amazing progress and a really interesting updateRe your long runs, yes 2 x 20 miles is adequate for your first marathon. You've already built the foundation to a great base and as long as you control your pace during the marathon I think you will fare a lot better in the latter stages of the race than many of the other runners.
Interesting about the fueling too, you're right. I find that if I skimp on a meal or don't snack the result is tiredness. And I've often had my best morning runs the night after a large meal.
Robert - I don't think there's any relation between RHR and MHR. RHR and MHR are genetic, like the colour of your hair. But RHR will respond to training by reducing and MHR reduces slowly as we get older.
Long run, you should be OK to double the time of your daily runs i.e. 1 hour 40 mins
Brian - it must be tempting to race Brass Monkey, I understand it's a fast course.
Thank you Shades, I'll look forward to running that sometime this afternoon.
Would you recommended sticking to 70-75% as long as possible? I've just re-read the HADD document (printed it off this time, much better!) and from my understanding it's best to increase your pace at the lowest levels for as long as possible. I consider myself a beginner runner, having only entered 3 x 10ks (two of which were 7 days apart) and have never trained consistently for longer than 2 months.
As I've already managed to drop a minute per mile in my first 4 runs at 70-75%, I'm VERY curious to see what pace I can get to if I continue to train like this. I'm in no rush, I have a 10K in May (PB 47min), the Great North Run in September and I'll plan to run a marathon a month after that.
As my pace increases I'll also try to work much closer to 70% to really 'squeeze from the bottom'.
At what point would you reach a plateau?
Fascinating way to train. Thanks again to everyone who contributes in this thread.
Robert- the HADD documnent says stay at 70% MHR running until you reach 50 miles per week! -but many of us will never do this. The other thing is to keep to the 70% pace until you can do 10miles at this pace without cardiac drift. If you are going to start with a LSR of 1 hr 40, you'll soon see whether you have much need to slow down to maintain the low HR. Once you find that your HR is stable for the same pace throughout, you're nearly there!
Once you are stable HR- wise for 10 miles, then you can add in some 80-83% stuff.
Thanks Tricialitt, I'm in no rush to get to 80%, quite the opposite. I want to push my lower limit as far as it will go, until it reaches a plateau - then move up.
The part I was referring to in the HADD document was Lydiard's comment "he suggests the initial one-week (mainly) aerobic training in his schedules is repeated "for as long as possible" before going on to the later parts of the programs"
I'm in no rush.
Getting to 50mpw is the first step - if possible I'd like to try and achieve this with 5 x 60mins & 1 x 120min. This will be a good sign that my pace (and LT) is increasing.
My 1h 40m run today was great, the pace was slower than my shorter runs but it was cross-country in a very hilly area of the Peak District.
Good morning to everyone, I hope everyones training is going well.
All is going well here and I am pleased with my initial progress. Last week Sun-Saturday I ran 6 days covering 35 miles in 5 hrs 42. As the week progressed I managed to gain greater control over my heart rate. I have established that my maximum heart rate is 205 so I am aiming for a heart rate of below 141 and for now this means running at 10.30 min mile pace.
I am feeling better but still have the lingering effects of the heavy cold I have had from the turn of the year so I am looking forward to being completely clear of this and seeing the effect of being illness free.
I went on my long slow run yesterday and ran with the running club I sometimes go out with. I ran for 2 hrs and covered 12 miles, however the effect of running with others meant that I ran faster that I would have had I been on my own running at 10 min mile pace and completing the run with an average heart rate which was nearer to 80%. I felt really good throughout the run, my breathing was controlled and my legs were loose however after 1hr 45 and 11 miles into my run I started getting headaches and pains in my body. I struggled on for the last mile but when I got home I was exhausted and flaked out and felt terrible. It took me until mid afternoon to feel better. I concluded that the cause was dehydration and believe I have not fuelled my body well enough before going out. I got up an hour before we were due to run I had a bowl of cereal and a cup of coffee and half a glass of orange juice. I think I need to get up slightly earlier in future and drink some more.
Body is a little stiff this morning so plan on going on a very slow recovery run today.
Good evening all,
Just an update on my progress.
Monday: Went to the gym on and completed my recovery run on the treadmill and was well behaved running 4.35 miles in 45 mins (10.21 min/mile pace) with 141 heart rate. Did a few weights and focussed on legs and core strength.
Tue: Went out with the running club ( a number of the runners will be doing the smae marathon as me) and completed more of a speed session.
1.81 mile warm (9.31 min mile pace) heart rate 149 (74%)
Followed by 4x 5.30 min splits. With a 2 min break between each. My distances were pretty consistent:
split 1: 0.73 miles ( 7.30 min mile) heart rate 170 (85%)
split 2: 0.76 miles (7.15 min mile) hear rate 174 (87%)
split 3: 0.74 miles (7.31 min mile) heart rate 173 (86%)
split 4: 0.75 miles (7.19 min mile) heart rate 177 ( 88%)
Followed by 1.69 mile cool down (9.54 min mile pace) heart rate 157 (78%).
The session began and ended with a good 15 mins stretching.
As soon as I finished the splits I felt discomfort in my groin and I was aware of it on the cool down back to base. Got up this morning and it is tender, I am not aware of it all of the time but certainly would not feel comfortable running today. Was going to go to gym and do session on the cross trainer but have had to give it a miss as I am on childcare duties tonight. Which is probably a good thing. I have the ice pack on the area frequently and desperately hope its not a problem.
I guess it may just be bad luck, on the otherhand I am concious that I have upped my weekly mileage fairly significantly from 23 ish to 35 and I am runnig a couple of the runs slightly quicker than the plan suggests (sunday long run was slightly quicker and Tuesday run with the club was quicker obviously. My hope was that the other runs in between that I am doing are slow enough to see me manage the increase. I will listen very carefully to my body and play it by ear as we say.
I hope everyone else's running and plans are going well.
Dp, Think you may have committed the cardinal sin of upping distance AND pace at the same time. Hope it is only a niggle and it eases in a dy or two.
On the 8th Jan you wrote:
thanks Brian and triialitt, yes tricialitt my normal resting heart rate is 55 and it was early 70s this morning. I am going to aim to build the slow miles and will really try to stick to the 140 heart rate. Looking at my previous runs I fear it will be a real challenge though to keep the heart rate down at this level. Look forward to sharing experiences.
You have just got rid of the lurgy, and your doing speedwork, when you should be building time on your feet? There is plenty of time before your marathon (May I think?) to do some faster stuff, but you need a solid base first.
Just my opinion btw.
I think you are correct. I recognise the issue is my runs with the running club which concerns me as I enjoy those runs. I have been very disciplined when running alone and have been able to clock up the miles at 10-10.30 min mile pace. Even on the treadmill when others around me are setting the pace much higher .
But when I have went out with the club it is a combination of following a different programme and getting caught in a competative mode where I am running at my usual pace/maintaining my usual position within the field which is meaning I am running faster than I would on the HADD programme.
The problem run is the Tuesday run as the sunday is long and slow anyway. So I maybe need to try and avoid the Tuesday run for the next six weeks until I get the base established.
Thankfully my groin is feeling better. I had an ice pack on it most of yesterday and have done lots of stretching on it. But it has given me a fright.
Hi honeys, I'm back!
169 miles so far this month, so looking at my forst ever 200 mile month. Most of my runs are XC and today I managed 2.5 hours at 138 av (69%) in 10.28 min miling. I really didn't used to be able to run at much less than 150 (75%) but I've now been out with Mrs CH and run for an hour at 123 ave (61%)...ok, it's 12 min miling, but that was my 3-4mph walking HR when I started.
I'm also sub 9 min miling at 150 (75%). I reckon that I had little or no fat-burning ability when I started, so it'll be interesting to see where I end up.
After three consecutive weeks of 50+ miles, I'll be glad of an easy week between now and the end of the month as I'm tired, but my legs are bearing up really well!
It's good to see that everyone else seems to be going good ways too, though I think Brian may be right about that speedwork, DP Good news that the groin isn't too serious.
RH, I too have been in no rush to get to 80%; I'm now actually running slower than I have been as I've dropped down from 75% to 70% as my target HR. Having said that, my times are still better than when I started, though not quite as good as a few weeks ago.
Hey Crash, great work on nearly reaching 200miles. That's some commitment! Also glad to see you're chipping away at 70-75% like myself, I was starting to doubt my reasoning.
Just out of interest, when did you start and what was your min/mile at 70-75% when you started?
I'm only on Week 3, but last week was pathetic so I'm determined to run 7 days this week. I find if I have a day off, then it merges into two or three. So far, I've run 51 miles over 10 runs - and my pace has dropped from 11min to 10min.
Are you still seeing improvements?
Hi Robert, thanks for that! I started at the end of September, when I ran my 10k XC test loop in 1:13:07 at an average HR of 150. It's now muddier underfoot, but I repeated it on Thursday in 1:00:09 at an average of 146...then ran an extra 8 miles.
I suppose that makes me over 2 min/mile faster for a lower HR and with more endurance
I have run an awful lot of miles (by my own standards; 100 miles a month would've been a high mileage month for me) with mileages of 142 119 (was ill for the last week or so) 157 and 169 and counting. It's almost all been at under 150 (75%) and recently I've been aiming at 140 (70%) with one hour's run a week at 155-160 and a session or two running with Mrs CH at whatever pace she fancies (so low HR for me 60-odd % of max)
The really good thing is that I've not been injured; I have stretched a lot more than I've ever done. I suppose that despite running for 10 years and doing 4 IMs and an 8 day stage ultra, I've never really taken training seriously before.
It sounds like you're getting fantastic results already, so I suppose it's a case of lots of patience and keep doing what you're doing!
Crash, Great news. All sounds like text book stuff too. Keep posting the very positive results please!!!
On a personal note, got round the York Brass Monkey HM without being blown over. Job done with marathon effort till 10 miles, then upped it a little to the end.
Nicely done, Brian!
I suppose the problem with the HADD method is that there's nothing glamorous about it until quite near the target race, especially for the average mortal. If Joe from the original example was running 8 min miling aerobically before he started training, there's not a huge amount of scope for someone like me to do anything other than run lots of miles at 70%/a few at 80% for several months before adding the faster/sexier stuff.
8 min miling at 75% MHR is my Spring target, not my starting point. I guess there's no substitute for consistent and disciplined work
Just out of interest Crash, how do you fit in 50mpw? Are you running +60mins each day and how long are your long runs?
I've obviously missed a RW Hadd thread update email, not been on since the 8th Jan yet the thread has carried on ticking along and I've missed loads. Nevermind read back and up to date.
I say read back, but can't find the one post I was looking to refer to. The training has been going well, although the love is lacking at the moment. An achy achilles, tight calves and sore feet not helping, combined with a cold and a trip to Brussels last week where I only managed one run. It didn't seem very runner friendly, well the part where may hotel was certainly wasn't.
Anyway I digress from the point I want to make, running with a partner. It was mentioned over the last few pages and I can't find it. I'm in the same boat, my colleague is chomping at the bit at the moment and racing round at close to or below 9min/miling and although my HR is sub 70% most of the way round as the week goes on it's getting higher. It is difficult to curb their enthusiasm. Or maybe, it's just the niggles and my general lethargy at the moment.
SlowRunningMan, this is an issue that I have experienced. Normally running with club mates on a Tuesday and Sunday I have found that the club runs don't fit with the HADD programme. My club mates, and from what I can pick up from others around these forums, most club runners look at long slow runs as marathon pace!! So any runs I have done with them have been much faster than I would want to do in the HADD programme and therefore closer to 80-85% as opposed to 70%.
In addition it is ok saying run at yourt own pace but the reality is different. Take sunday as an example. I went out for my long slow run determined to run at 70% -75% for the planned 14 mile run. To manage that I reckoned I would need to run at 10.30-10.45 pace. I get to the club and the only other runner going out was a young runner who likes to run all runs at race pace. We cover the first mile in 8.45 min pace and I say... you go on and we can rendevous at points as I am going to run slower. My partner says no its ok I will slow down. So what in reality happens? She runs slightly slower and I run slightly faster and when we get back and i analyse the splits I have averaged 9.30 min miles and have run at 80%. Meaning the run has not achieved what I set out to achieve.
Tonight was due to be a tempo run with the club. I did not go and instead ran in the gym at 70% pace but was disapointed to have to sit out the meet with the club, but I knew it was best after Sundays tough run. Next sunday I am faced with the same dilemma run on my own or go out with probably 1-2 others and be really disciplined re pace. The reality is that most club runners run faster in training than 70% runs most of the time so HADD is unlikely to be possible in the early stages with club running.
More generally I am in my 3rd week. I am happy that my groin strain seems to be no more than a mild strain and I have been able to continue running. I have run 35 miles both weeks and am on target to reach that this week. Runs other than the ones already mentioned are now being completed consistently at 70% which currently is approximately 10.20 min mile pace for 50 min runs.
I agree with others comments that this training does seem counter intuitive and it is hard to believe that going slower will result in faster running. It does however help to see the progress others more experienced have been getting on.
Robert, it's done over 5 or 6 runs a week and I'm running for 90-odd minutes a time plus a longer run or a double day.
My mileages for the last three weeks have been:8, 8, 8+3, 8, 8, 6 (plus the fractions = 51)10+5, 10+5, 8, 8, 7 (plus the fractions = 54)10, 10, 15, 8, 5 (plus the fractions = 50)
I'm self-employed and work some odd hours, so can organise my time to run in daylight on Mon, Wed, Thu and Sat. Friday is currently on road with a headtorch in the dark (joys of rural living!) and I sometimes run the double session with Mrs CH likewise. I generally have no chance of running on Tue or Sun.
As you can see, the long run really isn't that long at the moment, but I've found running more 'medium length' runs has led to very little muscle soreness, rather than doing one really big effort a week with the other runs fulfilling a supporting role.
My plan is to keep gradually extending the long run to 3 hours or so, which will probably take it out to 18 miles XC, then I've got a 20 road race, 6x6 mile 12 hour race XC (as a pairs relay), 26 road race (new local marathon which I'll run to HR; couldn't resist it!) and my b target marathon at Stratford at the end of April. I'll also run some long back to backs over Easter and throw in a 32 mile hilly XC as a run walk and a 21 mile canalside jaunt..which hopefully leaves me fit enough to survive the Severn Challenge. I'd really appreciate some feedback on whether everyone thinks this is enough long running for an ultra!
SRM, you have my sympathies about the enthusiastic running partner; I sometimes run with a mate who's itching to build the speed up, but I'm six years older than him so play the 'slow down for the geriatric' card!
Sorry DP, you weren't there when I started typing!
I rekon that this type of training is a little antisocial; you really can't compromise your pace. While I have to slow down my one training partner, Mrs CH worries that I'm getting nothing from running with her. However, I'm still at 60%MHR, so it's not a waste at all.
Hi dp... Know what your going through, been there myself, but can you remember this extract of the HADD doc (page 10)
So, to sum up:
To improve your LT (which will have a direct impact on your race performances), you must increase the motochondria in your running muscles (in a neat move, the optimal training to improve mitochondria is also the optimal training to improve capillary density).
The more mitochondria, the less lactate at every running pace. But mitochondrial adaptation in each fibre type is training-intensity dependent. If you want to maximise the number of mitochondria in each fibre type, you must train at the correct pace for that type. (remember; the more mitochondria, the less lactate; the less lactate, the faster the racing pace and the more economical you are at any pace, meaning you can keep that pace up for longer.)
Going to high on HR doesn't acheive the above aim.... So it just boil's down to how much you believe it can make a difference.... If you believe it can, then, you either need a slower partner, or train on your own.... Or if you don't think it will, then adopt some parts of the training into your current training and see where it gets you.....
Cheers Crash, I feel that's the route I'll be going down - would love to run 7 days a week, but I'm working two jobs and studying at college at night. I'm also in the local Squash league which takes up a couple of nights and have got a little baby which I guess I should spend some time with!
I think I'll carry on adding 10 minutes each week to my runs until I get to 90mins. I too am running with a headtorch, I used to always run in the mornings, but now my runs are getting longer I go out at 8:00pm. Saying that, I really enjoy running with a headtorch - I find myself plodding along in a medative state most of the time.
I'm pretty new to this running stuff and am getting chaffed on long runs for the first time! Tips greatly appreciated.
I have been a Hadd follower for the past 4 months and have trained at sub 75% heart rate religiously up to Christmas.
Mostly my training has been on the road but I have once a week run on a treadmill doing 10k at a slow 9kph (10.40 miles) and have monitored my average heart rate over the 12 weeks and seen it drop from a 135 to 127, if i was to plot this on a graph it would be almost a perfect downhill trend over the 12 weeks.
I was so pleased, as on the road I was seeing my 75% Ave heart rate return a improvement of 55 seconds per mile over this period.
I then went away for a 3 week break in the sun over Christmas and New Year and that's when it seems to have gone completely wrong....
I have come back and seen ridiculously high heart rates on my road runs and was beginning to think that my monitor was playing up but last night I done my 10k, 9kph treadmill run (same machine as normal) and returned a average HR of 146 - this is 19 beats a minute faster than just before Christmas!!! and 11 beats higher than when I first started sub 75% training
For the 3 weeks over Christmas I did not train at all, eat and drank too much but can this really be the cause, especially as I have now been back for 2 weeks and have run nearly every day.
I am really at a loss to understand what has happened as this is not a one off, it has been the same ever since I returned.
If anyone has any idea's I they would be very welcome as I really do not know what to do next as my aim was a marathon mid April and there does not seem to be time to do another block of sub 75% training and start squeezing from the bottom again.