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Crash, I don't think I was fully recovered - in fact, and I am still sniffling now... problem is that I need to keep things ticking over rather than lengthen the break any further. The good news is that I feel less bunged up as each day comes along, so am keeping my fingers crossed. However, having just done 9.5 miles at 10:00min pace this lunchtime (since my last post), but at an average of 154bpm compared with 12.5miles at 145bpm before I went skiing, I reckon I need to drop back down to 70% true HADD pace for the next 10 days or so... I feel the need for a bit of 'comfort running' (and am keen to avoid injury). It's all a bit swings and roundabouts at the moment... Ho hum.
Do any of you guys run while listening to music? I usually do. but am reconsidering
I went out with no headphones the other day and found that it made a noticable difference for me. Much easier to keep in the HR groove once I had settled down.
Its not night and day different but I think it could be significant if trying to keep the rate under control on a 70%-er...especially after a lay-off.
There have been runs over the last month or so where I've checked the HR only to find that I've over-cooked things half-way through a run. Usually this coincides with a lively choon or two. Sometimes I think "feck it, I'll never get that down again...let's just finish it now"
Looks like the jury is out as to whether its the music somehow directly elevates HR or whether its an indirect effect which happens due to unconscious (or conscious) stimulation of faster running. The latter sounds like it is more the case for me.
Either way I have a chilly 70mins to do this evening and not having the music is just going to give me more time to think about how bloody cold it is!
L33, I reckon that keeping it ticking at 70% (now that you can get down that low again) for a while is a sensible plan.
LC, I generally don't run with music, but do treat myself occasionally (often on 'that run that I really don't want to do') I do find that it's difficult to divorce the beat of the music from the pace I'm running though (especially as I'm an old-school metal head...)
Just an update after about 8 weeks of Hadding. I started following the Hadd programme to get fit for a marathon in May and the dartmoor Discovery in June. My main goal is to get a VLM GFA time (3:15) in the May marathon.
Until last week I have being doing all runs at a HR of <132 and have managed to build up to 60-65 mpw for the last 3 weeks. This is a major achievement for me since I have previously been unable to get above 30mpw because of training at too fast a pace leading to injuries.My first Hadd run was 10miles at 8:57 pace. My long run last week was 20miles at 8:01 pace, so there has been a massive improvement. I have lost a stone in weight also, which I'm sure makes a huge diffference.
So all in all, I'm very pleased with following a Hadd regime.
Now that I am comfortable doing 60+ mpw, I am starting to do some faster paced runs. I am doing a HM on Sunday, so this Tuesday I did a 8 mile run without HRM to see how fast I could go at a comfortable fast pace. I averaged 6:45, which was much faster than I expected, so I think I will aim for a 1:30 half on Sunday. If I manage it I will be amazed since I wasn't expecting to get anywhere near this time until much later in the plan.
One thing I am struggling with is getting a MHR worked out. So far I have just been going off the 220-age, which would be 176. Today I ran (alone) an unofficial 5k course that we use at work to try and calculate a MHR. The course has an uphill finish, but my Max HR was only162. I can't believe this is really my MHR. I didn't feel like I could have made my legs move faster, but on the other hand I didn't feel like I was all out. Could it be that after all the slow runs, I haven't got my body used to moving my legs fast yet, or maybe because I was running alone I wasn't pushing myself enough? Anyway, I will still use 176 as MHR until I can get a better measurement.
From now on I will stick roughly to the Hadd plan, with long runs and recovery runs at <132. I'll do my midweek 14 and 10 mile runs at higher HR, plus maybe a few faster 5k's to build up speed.
Hi Spenda, it sounds like it's going fantastically well for you
I'm not surprised that you're struggling to work out an HR now; I reckon you'd have to warm up for several miles, then hammer several balls-out intervals; you're proabably now much too aerobically fit to get a proper result over 5k The Hadd document does describe the 'diesel engine' phenomenon, where you feel comfortable running at fast pace, but lack the extra gear to go faster; that, apparently will come as you add in the faster paced runs!
It sounds like you're already at/damn close to your target with three months to go; I guess all you have to do now is keep working and hold it together!
Good to hear that most people are seeing progress with their running under Hadd.
I've had a week of toil and trouble, leading to a serious loss of Runners mojo. The Fatherland's bitter temperatures, averaging -15 degrees C at 7am over the past 2 weeks have taken their toll, treadmill running leading to dehydration no matter how much fluid I take on board, an achilles injury that has led to no running for a week. Ok weather people you've had your laugh, let me get back outside please.
Hot and Cold packs, rolling and stretching will be the order of the week as I head to the warmer climes of Brussels which forecasts a drizzling 2 to 3 degress C, positively Carribean.
I have real sympathy with SRM following my own week or so of toil and trouble - though to be fair, I have not had to try and run in -15DegC: that's real brass monkey weather!
All I would say is that perseverance and going back to basics pays off. Having been pretty depressed by what I felt was a relative 'back-slide' in the middle of last week (on the back of nearly three weeks without a worthwhile run...), I set out to do my first 18 mile LSR, yesterday, at HADD pace and thought "bu99er the time it takes me!" Actually, it was much better than anticipated. Once I'd got into my rhythm I spent a good two hours at just over 70%, cracking steady 10:15-10:30 minute miles. Though I did find it harder to keep my pace up and HR down after 12 miles, or so, the drift was not huge and by the time I pulled stumps at 19-and-a-bit miles, I was cruising (if that's the word for it, ) at just plus of 80%. So, all in all, a very satisfying days work! The really good news is that my legs feel better today after nearly 20 miles than they did in the middle of last week after half that!
I now rather hope that I am back where I was before I went skiing (...and caught the lurgy) and that I can now spend the remaining 5 weeks gradually edging up my ability to sustain pace over distance. We'll see...
... oh and by the way, what a day out in Rome!
Had a fantastic lunch of linguine gamberi, washed down with good sicilian red wine and then onto the Stadio Olympico (in the snow...) to see England mount a second half come-back (I actually felt the Italians played better than we did but, hey ho, a win's a win).
Ahhhh, the perks of living in italy!
Hi Guys.... Haven't posted for a while, but have been keeping a eye on the thread....
SRM.... Lost my mojo a few weeks back, and all I done was reduce the mileage that week by taking a extra day off..... Its advised that every forth-ish week should be a easier week anyway, which I wasn't doing....
Anyway Guys... Enjoy your training..... Winter's nearly over!!!!!!
Come on Hadders! I have a thirst for stats. What about a round-up report from all of you, and lets see some numbers.
Pace/HR from 6 weeks ago. Weekly mileage and intensities. Key sessions. Long runs. Key mistakes and reasons. Injuries? Leading to Pace/HR now. And then plan for next 6 weeks.
L33, that's sounding like a great day (the Saturday!)
Bluenose (did we establish that you're a Birmingham City fan?) the easy week certainly seems to help; I've been taking the last 7 days of each calendar month as an easy week (maybe 2/3 of normal mileage) and I've come back fresher each time. I'm also feeling tired at the moment, so chopped my 17 miler down to my 10k XC route yeasterday; today is a rest day anyway, but I'm feeling ready to go again.
So some stats for Brian:
On 1st October 2011, I ran my 10k XC route in 1:13:07 at an average HR of 150Yesterday I ran the same loop in 57:25 at 148 ave (and I now disregard the first mile in average calculations)
That's 15:42 faster over 10k in just over 4 months. OK, I admit I wsan't fit when I started, but I'm really pleased with the improvement!
On 16th December, I ran 7.x on road at 148 (74%) in 9:09 min milingOn 10th Feb, I ran 11.x miles on road at 148 in 8:42 min miling on a harder route (Fetch does a hill rating: 206 for this route vs. 118 for the 7 miler; also subjectively harder!)
I reckon I've improved a good 30 sec/mile and gained more endurance between those dates.
I'm now averaging 50+ miles a week (except in easy week when it's 30ish) and injury-free. I'm now trying to dial in some 80% running, though it might be a little early for two sessions a week!
Crash, That's text book stuff. And casting my mind back you're avoiding making the mistakes I made when starting Hadd in 2005. I was so enthused that I worked up to 7 days per week very quickly, and became obsessed with the improvements. So much so that I was oblivious to rest days and cutbcak weeks! Ended up with real bad hamstring problems.
Keep up the great work (and rest!). Looking forward to see your 80% improvement curve.
Thanks folks I guess there's still quite a big chunk of improvement to come through as it's only this year that I've ben doing the 50 mile weeks, so with a six-week lag for mitochondrial development, the results should come on-stream soon.
Spenda, your figures are fantastic (and just about where I aspire to be!) Keep up the excellent work!
Spenda, Sounds like your flying! And fully deserved too, looking at the consistency of your training.Just one observation if I may - I think you are ready to up the ante to 80%, not sure about the speedwork yet though. One step at a time, absolutely no need for you to jeopardise your health and fitness, as you are well ahead of the game at this point.With 3 months until your marathon, no need for you to ice your cake yet.Your Tuesday session looks ideal to take on the 80% run. 90mins with 70mins@80% will see the distance reduce a little from 14M but should still come out at close to 12M.
87min HM suggests 3:10 to me, but your a way off estimating your goal pace yet. The 80% runs will give you a reasonably accurate pointer as to your potential.
Ok, opinions please...
I'm running comfortably at 8:40s for 74% max (maybe a tad quicker on the absolute flat) and still getting improvements. I'm quite happy pootling away at 67-74% for all my runs. Sometimes, I'll aim at 140 (70%) and others 150 (75%), generally coming in a beat or two below target; I'm also up to 50mpw.
My targets are: Stratford Marathon (end of April) in a PB; 3:30 would be achievable, 3:15 my stretch target...and the Severn Challenge (just to complete will be fine; this is my 'A' target)
Obviously, I'm not yet at the 8 min miling that Joe in the Hadd example could do when he started training, so even though I'm <cough> 46 and no great athlete, I'm assuming that there's more to come.
I can start adding some faster (80%) work now as per Joe's plan, or keep plodding on at 70-75% with one slightly quicker run a week up to and beyond my races, to give myself a base and a half for my Autumn marathon (which will be in Flanders if all goes according to plan)
What do you think? Presumably adding some quicker sessions will give me a better time at Stratford, but will I be able to hit 3:29:59 on thre training I'm doing and have a better base for a 'really fast' Autumn? I suppose if I carry on as I'm going I'll have lost another 30 sec a mile by the end of April and probably lost 10 sec a mile because of weight loss, which would see me 8 min miling at 75% by race day... (or about where Spenda is now )
Waffly, I know, but though I've got the base training concept sorted in my head, I'm not sure of the timing of adding in harder runs.
CH... I was born a Everton Fan, I believe I was a evil dictator in a previous life, and paying for it in this.....
Stats..... Dont forget guys am not doing HADD as a part of a marathon program, but to give me some sort of base which I was definitly lacking last year..... And I can quite honestly say it has surprised me....
End of last October 11, ran a 10k race in 44mins, completely knackered at end.... Last Sunday done a 10mile race, and went through 10k in 41-44min and finished in 68-28min, for me fantastic.....
My training week at the moment consists of a SLR (13mile), 75min@70% HR, 75min@80% HR, and 2 x interval or race sessions, which gives me roughly 40 to 45 miles on a 5 day traininmg week... My training week has enough flexibility in it, for change if and when a plateau occurs...... One thing I've got to say, the HADD intewrval sessions are ******* HARD, or I'm I just getting old!!!!!!!
Hello to you all,
you all seem to be well ahead of me and doing fine .Any advice wellcome on my training feel free to comment.
Sunday...14/16 miles ave hr 110
Monday...5 miles ave hr 115
tuesday...11 miles ave hr 112
Wednesday... 6.5 miles ave hr 130
Thursday... 11 miles ave hr 112
Friday... 6.5 miles ave hr 130
rest day or I run park run at 130 hr, and use the Friday as a rest day.The 11 milers are run at about 10 min mile pace. The weds and fridays are run at 80% , I am still seeing quite a fade off on my 80% runs but there is a small improvement [fingers x] . Most of my races will be fell. I am looking at LLanbeder to Blaenavon early april .Race the devil early may Paps of Jura late may two weeks later the welsh 1000 in north wales.Then I can relax for a month.
Hi Spen71, To make pace irrelevant, I generally recommend time rather than distance.
What is your background, and what is your aim?
Brian. wrote (see)
Hi Nick, Don't panic! What you are seeing is normal.I guess you've put a little weight on, and 3 weeks is enough of a break to lose fitness.All of your 12 weeks work will not have been wasted though, and it will come back quicker than it did prior to Xmas if you do the right things.If I were you I'd certainly do another 2 weeks at <75% and see where you are.Infact I would keep up the lower intensity until you reach the level of where you were before Xmas.My guess is this will still leave you at least 6 weeks to tackle some 80% (or MP) work, in prep for your marathon.
Many thanks for your advice a few weeks back, I was beginning to panic after seeing my improvements made following Hadd's theory come undone after Xmas.
I have followed your advice and seen things steadily improve to almost back where they were, I am amazed at how much damage was done after a 3 week break though.
I am now starting to work in some MP runs and finding this relatively easy, things seem to be coming back on track.
Thank you for the words of encouragement...
Hi everyone, been lurking for a while (I usually reside on one of the 3:30 marathon threads - hi Spen! Not that I've run a 3:30 marathon!) and thought I'd join in if that's ok.
Bit of background... I've been doing Hadd-style training since New Year after a successful year last year on low mileage, high quality (Furman style) training last year. Managed to go from 1:42:30 to 1:31:00 for a HM on 25 miles a week, but decided that it was time to build the aerobic base as that had been neglected in my training so far, with the aim of going sub-1:30 later in the year.
I've built my mileage up to around 40-55 miles or 6-8 hours a week (depending on how busy I am), all at around 75% max HR (my max is 196, so they've been around 145-150, although gradually trying to get them lower). From last week I started adding one ILTH run at 155-160bpm a week.
The results of my HADD test before I started were: 140 - 10:16, 150 - 9:19, 160 - 8:21, 170 - 7:43, 180 - 6:54. I'll be doing another one next week.
The main thing that puzzles me at the moment is that I've found my pace to be frustratingly slow (usually 9:15-9:30mm - slower than any of the calculators suggest I should be running my easy or long runs at), which would suggest my aerobic system is poor. Yet I'm able to run at this pace for 2 hours without any cardiac drift whatsoever and also on my runs at 155-160bpm I'm also getting no drift at all over an hour, both of which would suggest my aerobic system isn't too bad. What do you think?
Also, HADD says that once you can run for 60-75 mins at the ILTH rate with no drift you have 'mastered' that level. Does this mean I could move up to 160-165bpm for my ILTH runs already? I'm probably not going to as I want to do this properly and gradually but just wondered what people think?
Sorry for going on a bit!
Well I am a 40 year old male and been running for just over a year. Done 4 half marathons and 2 full marathon with bests of 1:41 and 4:00 respectively. It was obvious on my last marathon that my aerobic base is not good enough as seem to fall apart. Done a lot of reading into this and then stumbled across this thread. For the last few weeks I have been doing 10 min miles for all distances but unsure of the HR due to my heart monitor not working.
For my MHR I think it is 186 as I had this when running up a hill so will assume this is about right.
So is my HR for this about 135? and do I do any ILTH at 145 or do I run all at the slow pace. I have read the HADDs webpage and going to read through this thread from start to finish too. Sorry if I am asking silly questions/
Spen71, You've done a lot of racing in a short time! From what you have said, I would use 190 as your HRmax. This gives 133 as your 70%, so I would try to stay below this figure.Your mileage seems already at a decent level, so I would head for something like this:45mins70mins60mins70mins45minsRest2hrs.....all <133 initially. When the drift on the longer runs is minimised (or plateaus), youcould then build in the 80% runs.
I guess you need to invest in a HRM.