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• Thanks for that Brian.   My HRM was playing up  but got it out again last night and it seems to be working fine.  So I did 5 miles and it seems that my 10 min miles is about 135 so not far off that the figure of 133 you gave.

Next silly questions

When you go uphill and downhill HR changes.  Do we change our pace to compensate?

If I was to do extra miles on that would it make any difference?

• Spen71, Yep, a regular question. Obviously the HR will increase when you go up and decrease when you go down. This is unavoidable in reality. You can allow yourself a few beats on the uphills knowing that the HR will drop below the average on the downhills. This way you can still average less than the target HR. I know with the Garmin (I have a 305) you can add the lap average to the display screen as well as the current HR, and so it removes the guesswork to some extent. If you have no realtime display of HR average on your HRM then it will indeed be down to guesswork.
• I have the 305 and it seems to be working now.  I have the overall average on mine so should just do the mile average instead?

THink I will do about 50-60 miles a week and see how I get on.  Will keep you posted.

• Spen, In answer to your question: If the hills are rolling and not mountains, then it will not make any difference to speak of. Obviously the pace/hr will be slower than if you ran on the flat.

I find the canal towpath is ideal for Hadd runs. Outandback runs are great for estimating your cardiac drift. ie. Run out for 35mins from a certain point, lap your watch, turn and run back to the same point. If you run at the same HR on the way back, then the drift is the difference in pace. The drift is actually the amount of extra effort to run back at the same pace. Similar measurements, but I favour the constant HR, drop in pace method.

• Spen71, There is a LAP AVERAGE HR which will only give you HRav for the current lap. This is ideal for outandback runs, where you would lap at h/w (knowing what the lap average is), and then try and maintain that average on the way back.

Strictly speaking this will always give a slightly distorted view. To get accurate, usable results, there should be a warm-up involved, as the HR rises steadily when we run from cold. And so the "out" portion of the run will always be a little lower HR wise than it should be.

• Ah Towpaths   Never thought of them.   Lots around me in Birmingham.  As lots of my runs are at night I will not be able to do this for a bit

I get what you mean turn off the autolap and do out and back method.  Use the mile or so to the towpath as a warmup too.

Thanks for you help Brian.  Much appreciated.

• You could always invest in a headtorch.
• So according to the document after 6 weeks I should see a difference due to the mitochondria?  And about this time we should start doing 2 80% runs a week?

• Spen71, I think the initial phase can be longer, depending on the start point mileage. Before you step up, you should feel comfortable running for 6-7 hours per week, including a long run of 2hrs, all at low intensity, easy running (<70-75%).

The step up to 2x80% runs per week can be a little taxing depending on the experience of the athlete. I would include 1x80% mid-week run and see how you feel after a couple of weeks of this. 70mins at 80% whilst feeling only moderately hard, initially may take 3 or 4 days to recover from. The progression is to 2x80% runs, 2 days apart ie. Mon/Thurs or Tues/Fri depeding on when you do your long run. So typical weeks might be:

Mon 80%, Thurs 80%, Sat Long; or

Tues 80%, Fri 80%, Sun Long.

Filling in with 70-75% "recovery" runs.

• As it seems to be question time at the moment!! I wonder if I can ask one too please?

I have completed my base training and am now turning my attention towards more specific Marathon training - What do you consider to be a realistic % of high heart rate to be an achieveable average over the 26.2 miles?

I have run one marathon before and returned exhausted with just over 90% of HHR as average, this was probably made this high by running the last miles with a HR well over 90% with the majority run at 87 - 88%

What are peoples thoughts and actual finding on this please?

Thanks Nick.

• Nick, The general figures banded about are to average 86-88%. I think in this case though, the only way to arrive at the best formula for you is to experiment.

I have a tried-and-tested method that works for me:-

I set off at 83-84%, steadily increasing HR to hit 87% at h/w (this is what I intend to average over the full distance). I then allow it to increase to 88% by 20M. Then it all depends on what shape the legs are in ie. I hope to keep upping the HR to 90% in the final miles if the legs allow.

This plan tends to give me even pace.

• Nick, what a timely question... only yesterday I was mulling over the same issue whilst out on my lunchtime run in preparation for my first HM a week on Sunday and my first Marathon 3 weeks after that; and now I know!  To be honest, whilst I have started incorporating 80/83% runs into my weekly programme, I can't deny that the thought of sustaining 85% plus for 4 hours, on the back of 15 weeks spent running at largely <75%, was beginning to weigh heavily on my mind   Yesterday, for instance, I did 8 miles at 83% (or so) and felt good at the end, but that's less than a third of what I will be doing on the day.  It is therefore good to hear from somone as experienced as Brian that we shouldn't fear the higher heart rate, but just get on with it and trust in the training.

That said, I have done a little extra research into this subject and was planning on being slightly conservative for my first outing by trying the 'negative split' strategy.  That is, running the opening miles (say the first 8-12) at 15-20 seconds a mile slower than my target pace, in the hope that I will save sufficient juice in the tank to 'up' the pace in the last third.  That sounds pretty similar to Brian's method, though I'm not sure (yet) what difference the extra 20 seconds will make to my HR  - that's what I'm planning on testing in the HM: hopefully, without 'digging up too many of my potatoes' before I get to the start of the marathon.

If anyone has any other advice, I'd be glad to hear it.

• Thanks again Brian you are a star.   So the 80% runs are to start at 70 mins?

• Warm-up 10mins, 70mins@80%, cool-down 10mins. 90min run.
• Great to hear how everyone else is getting on.

I am just about to complete week 6 of the HADD and am really feeling the benefits. Firstly, I really enjoy running at this pace. I do my long sunday runs and the tuesday run outdoors but do all other runs on the treadmill.  The slower pace means that I have been able to up my mileage significantly. Before I was averaging 20-22 miles per week, now i am averaging 35-38 and my legs feel good. Previously, i would not run on a saturday before my long slow run but I ran 6 miles today before my scheduled 16 miles tomorrow as I am confident that the pace i am running at is keeping me ticking over as opposed to exhausting me.

Today I seen my first really pleasing indicator in respect of my heart rate. On the treadmill I set it up at the pace I know will allow me to run 60 minutes at 140 hr this is my 70%. I do this run regularly now so dont really focus on the heart rate until after. When I got home from the same run and put the data into the computer I found that my average heart rate for the run had been 130 (65%). I am not sure if this is some one off or a sign of some progress. I can't wait to find out.

L33  that sounds like a sensible plan re pacing for the marathon. I hope to do very similar. This is my first marathon and whilst I have a target in mind since i have started to up the mileage I have developed a real respect for the distance. Every time i up the long run i feel a real sense of anticipation knowing i havent gone that far before. I therefore know on marathon day there will be a sense of respecting the distance. I too feel cautious about the idea of being able to run at 88% for that far and  would think it necessary to start at 78-80% to allow me time for the heart rate to rise..... This said I am also hoping that this plan is going to help with all that.

• Been a lurker on this thread for a while - decided to post as I have a question for the more experienced HADD'ers. Some brief background on my running to give some context. Been running for about 2 years with a big 6 month hiatus in there somewhere. 10k PB 48:50 on an XC course, HM (my first and only) 01:53:15 and Puma Hellrunner in 01:44:16.

Came to running from years of Mountain Biking and cycling to work so had good cardiovascular fitness - started running about 5-6 miles from the outset. Read the RW Heart Rate training 101 which got me interested in HADD.

HR Max 192 resting HR 45. Been HADD'ing for just under 4 weeks HR < 140. Intially I was running 12:48 which was killing me but stuck with it and average pace is 11:38 (over a week) but have run 7 miles at 10:45 and fastest mile 10:08 so there is more speed to be squeezed out at < 140.

Question is how do you fuel your HADD runs ?? I have been going out and running 11-12 miles. Pre-HADD I took an energy drink with me and tucked into some jelly babies after about 8 miles as I was starting to flag a bit. Don't feel I need anything but took a banana and some water as I ran 13 miles today - lucozade sport and jelly babies don't quite seem right as they are just an instant hit of glycogen and my understanding of HADD is that you stay aerobic and burn fat with oxygen and a small amount of glycogen rather than use glycogen as fuel ??

• Dp, Love it when you get the 6week gear shift. Doubt it's a one-off. Hadd improvement tends to be like that. Almost overnight it seems.
• Simon, Fuelling is a personal thing. I tend to not need anything on runs up to 90mins, water up to 2 hours. I stopped taking luco as the dentist bills were totting up. If I'm doing 20M+ I take a gel with me just incase, but rarely have to take it. But I am 5'7 and 67kg. If you are a bigger frame then u may need to fuel on the run. It goes without saying that you should be getting good carbs the night before a long run, and if possible, a good brekkie before you set off.

Sorry I can't be more help, but everybody's different. I would take a gel rather than the jellys etc.

• I think the answer to the fuelling question is 'whatever works for you'...

my 18 miler the other day (drifted disappointingly after 14 miles) was done without anything other than water, though I was carrying a couple of gels just in case. I'd race with gels and I'll try them out in an LSR in training to make sure they don't disagree with me (I find I have phases where certain gels work well, then suddenly they don't and make me feel sick) but I like training without. If the object of the LSR is to train your body in the dark art of fat burning, I don't think that tipping in simple sugars is that constructive.

Obviously, if you're dying on your arse 5 miles from home, there's no point in being stubborn about it; that's why I carry a couple of gels just in case!

• Thanks for the replies guy's - it was just noticable that I didn't really feel that I needed to fuel on the run anymore and wanted to get the opinion of some other HADD'ers. Brian I am 5'6 and 64kg so similarish build - I used to water down the lucozade sport 50/50 with water as I found it to sugary and a bit gloopy. . Crash your comment "If the object of the LSR is to train your body in the dark art of fat burning, I don't think that tipping in simple sugars is that constructive." were my thoughts exactly.
• Woop, woop, woop.... BREAK-THROUGH ALERT!

Sorry to be so melodramatic, but I have some good news on my stats that I wish to share with you all

Went out at lunchtime today for a 90 minute run, with 70 minutes at 80% as per my 'Brian' inspired training programme.  To be honest, I wasn't expecting to get much out of the session after only one day's recovery since my first 20 miler on Sunday (quads very slightly achey and all that).  I decided to keep it 'basic' and see what happened.  Well, 20 minutes in my 70% pace seemed a bit pedestrian, my legs felt really strong - none of the heaviness I was expecting after the hammering they'd had two days before - more importantly, I had somehow fallen into the 'marathon shuffle' (shorter, lower, faster strides) that I have been trying to develop over the past few weeks (but to no effect...).  Bottom line: increasing my HR to 80% was a breeze.  What was even more rewarding was that after 5 miles or so at this new pace I cracked out an 8:36 minute mile!  Conscious of overdoing it, I backed off, but even so...

...compare that to my first ever 2 hour LSR (back on 4 Dec), which is recorded in my training diary as producing an 11:36 minute mile pace and the 3 minute difference is significant.  Admittedly, that was at 70%, but my ability to go further, faster and in less time is what it is all about... and I am delighted with the progress.

I'm certainly not counting my chickens, but I am now a great deal more confident about being able to do the Hadd Plan justice than I was a couple of weeks ago (for info, now in week 13, but only 3 weeks back after a 3 week layoff for skiing and the lurgey - so effectively 9 weeks into 'the programme').

Next report next week... after my Rome Ostia HM outing (starting at 75-80% and seeing how I feel at the 8 mile point ).

All I can say is... BRING IT ON!

• L33, Really pleased for you! Not quite break out the bubbly just yet but you made a BIG step forward today, physically AND mentally. I remember the excitement you are filled with. Bet you can't wait to get out and do another, am I right? I used to itch on an 80% day, couldn't wait to see how the pace turned out.

Make sure tomorrow is an easy running day - no higher than 70%. Plenty of stretching/massage and maybe a swim too if convenient.

What were your stats for the run?

• Alright Brian.

Well I have looked at my Garmin to see what miles/paces Ive done.   Well I have done three weeks at my 10 min/mile pace which looking at my Garmin is at about 72% of my HR.    The last 3 weeks have been 37, 24 and then 56 (including marathon).   Do you think I should carry this on for this week and then start to introduce a 80% run each week.

Also when it comes to speed and hill  training what do you do?   An extra session?

• Heyup Spen71 sithee!  Congrats on your marathon!!!!! Did I miss something? Can't recall you telling us about a marathon?

First things first - you need to recover. No running this week. Swim or cycle if you must exercise but you must allow your body to recover otherwise you risk burn-out and injury.

Next week can be the first of 3 easy weeks, all 70% or below. Don't even dream about 80% (or hills or speed for that matter!) yet!

• Thanks.  I did not run the marathon hard and it was a training run.  And my legs feel fine so going to do a few miles this week/
• After 7 weeks of HADD I have come down with the flu,so feeling a bit frustrated at the mo. L33 Good to know it works even after a few weeks lay off.

• Nice result, L33!

Roy, that's a right pain! Hope you feel better soon.

Spen, tell us lots of stats about the marathon...

• A marathon is a marathon, Spen. Good luck to you, you'll need it.
• Did the marathon in 4hrs 20 mins which was pretty comfortable.
• Thanks for the encouragement folks...

And yes, Brian, I am itching to get out there and do it all again, but have already steeled myself to stick to my programme which is 9m 'easy' today and only 4m easy tomorrow (a mini taper before my HM at the weekend).  To be honest, I'm more interested in conserving my legs over the next few days than seeing what else they can produce!  As far as my stats go, that's a bit more difficult - I don't run with anything more complicated than a Nike+ sensor for my iPod.  However, I can tell you that having calibrated it to death over the last 3 months, it is amazingly accurate.  As such, whilst I can get snapshot reports by pressing the centre button (time, distance covered, current pace), it is not until the end where it gives me a potted history of the run including average pace overall and best mile - which is how I I know about my 8:36 time.  I made an educated guess that it was about 5 miles into the 80% session, because that's when I was running my best 'splits' on the frequent snapshots I was taking.  I might see if I can borrow a running computer for the HM - it could be interesting to see the results.

Roy, stick with it, the base I built up before my lay off was still there and is now starting to pay dividends.  I found the way to get back into my stride was with a solid week of no more than 70%, you'll soon be back on song!

Ciao for now.