HADD training plan

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  • Oh btw, Snake Lane entry form is out. I wouldn't hang about if I were you, it fills up quickly. It's also been rumoured that Brass Monkey is opening this weekend, but not sure.

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Cheers for the heads-up. Yes, we will have certainly passed on the canal - I've spent most lunchtimes on there over the past few months!

    Chester was okay ... windy but not too disruptive - I pushed a little too hard between 14 and 20M and paid the price in the last 5-10K. Ended up with 3:32 ... I think 3:25 was possible on the day but I learned a lot (it was my first proper marathon attempt).

    Good luck with Abingdon!

  • Cheers DD, recover well...

  • It is a small world Dr D. I used to organise 5 mile handicaps from Whitehall Bridge along the canal  - 2.5 miles out and back. We used to get a good attendance.

    3:32 is a good effort for your first FM. I think everyone learns from their first effort, whatever your level;, unless you are Liz McColgan of course who got it perfect first time out.

  • An interesting approach for sure...I have a question

    Does this approach need to be "all or nothing" in its application to achieve the increased lactate threshold benefit?

    Take a hypothetical runner (or maybe an actual one like me) that is probably doing all of his training in HR zones above those advocated by Hadd's approach.  This runner is running 4-5 times a week and following a diet of weekly:

    • long run 90+ mins
    • track 60 mins
    • 2-3 other runs of around 40 mins

    Would the improved LT benefits still apply if the 2-3 other runs (third bullet) were turned into aerobic pace runs...albeit with improvement at a slower rate?

    Or does this approach need to be adopted wholesale in order to achieve any (or most) of the benefit?

    From taking a quick look at the Hadd 25 pager I understand that this is intended as an annual phase rather than a year round prescription.  I'm just wondering whether I need to take a knife to the current routine.

  • Ok fwiw, here is my take on it.
    I think its best explained using the toothpaste tube analogy.
    If your potential threshold was equivalent to the amount of toothpaste you were able to
    Get out of the tube, then the way to start is squeezing right from the bottom.
    I guess most traditional training schedules begin squeezing nearer the middle, and although
    Quite a lot of toothpaste can be obtained, there will be some wasted, left unobtainable at the bottom.
    Fortunately, we can restart from the bottom, taking care to start
    Squeezing at the lowest level.

    Your improvement will still take place, but my opinion is that your
    Achievable threshold will be limited to a plateau lower than your potential.

    Does that make sense?
  • Thanks for the reply Brian.

    So using the toothpaste tube analogy, my questions are:

    Does one have to do all their squeezing from the bottom of the tube to eventually empty it? (ie achieve the maximum possible increased LT improvement)

    If one were to squeeze the tube in two places at once (with a mixture of Hadd and other training in the same week (as above), would we
    (1) eventually empty the tube but it would take longer
    (2) leave some toothpaste in the tube...but less than before
    (3) be no better off than if we had continued to squeeze from the middle
  • No you can't empty the tube without going back to the bottom.
    Answer is
    (2) You will leave some toothpaste in the tube.
  • Thanks again Brian

    I'm going to give this a go!

    Maximum bottom squeezage for 6 weeks and take it from there

  • Another one joins the club.Welcome LC

    I am 4 weeks into it now and not regetting it but do wonder if I am ever goingt to run 'fast' again. I am certainly getting miles in my legs but I do think I am becoming a plodder and I feel just as tired after 10-11 miles as I did when doing them at a faster pace. I am staying with it though.

    Maximum bottom squeezage here I come image

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  • I can't guarantee results, but it worked for me.

    I've just done my second best marathon time at the age of 50. image

  • PhilPubPhilPub ✭✭✭
    Fantastic run, Brian!  How's your ranking looking?
  • Cheers Phil, I am equal 40th according to PO10. image

    If I can remain in the top 50 for 2011 I will be happy.

    How is your comeback doing? 

  • Thanks JohnnyBike

    Will try to post a weekly update on progress.

    My HRmax seems to be a bit all over the place with a couple of silly looking (200+) spikes in my last couple of races.  185 seems to be the highest "non-outlier" value I have so I'll go with this for the time being.  I'm 42 so this figure feels more likely than some of my more exotic readings.

    From this I've derived a low aerobic pace HR of 135 (185-50).

    A couple of quick questions for JB / experienced Hadders

    • how did you design the shape of your training weeks?  I'm thinking of starting out this week (week 1) with a relatively grindy 5 sessions of 45mins @ 135-140.  From there I was going to scale down the sessions shown pp 19-20 of the 25 page Hadd doc to a more realistic starting point for me
    • the Hadd 25 pager word doc shows Joe running 7 days a week...is this necessary or is it Ok to take a rest day each week

    I'm going to try to resist the temptation to crack any more gags about where I am squeezing my tube (apart from that one). 

    Cheers

  • PhilPubPhilPub ✭✭✭

    Brian, the comeback's on schedule, I suppose.  That is to say, I'm fully back up to speed with all the exercise I was doing before the op - cycling (road, track, spinning, hard as I like) and all the cardio stuff in the gym, core, etc. but I can still feel that the range of movement is restricted for running (or indoor rowing), so no immediate prospects to get back to running, but then I was advised it would be 3 months or so to get back into it, and the op was just over 3 weeks ago. 

    I have a follow-up appointment with the surgeon on Friday week, so I'll discuss a more running-specific comeback plan with him then, but I'll be happy enough if I can get back to it by the end of the year.  My cycling fitness is continuing to improve in the mean time, and I'm sort of approaching "race weight" again!

  • All coming together nicely then. Hope the surgeon confirms the come-back plan.

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭
    Lambchop ... I'd take 130 bpm as you maxHR while building up the miles. That would be 70% of your 185 bpm "max" (although your max might be high ... I've never hit mine in a race, only in a specific maxHR test). Once you have a good base of high mileageeasy running, you can start to introduce the ILTHR sessions at 150 bpm.
  • OK Dr.Dan

    In for a penny in for a pound I suppose

  • LC,

    I don't see it as necessary to run 7 days a week but in conjunction with trying to raise my LT threshold I am also trying to get more miles in and 'running easy' allows me to do that. I have been doing double sessions some days (only because I have had to miss days because of other commitments) and I am finding that pretty comfortable. Last week I was forced to miss Wed/Thurs so I ran 3 and 3 on Friday, 5 and 5 on Saturday and 12 on Sunday. I could not have done that off normal running.

    I am taking 75% as my average HR (not MHR) for my runs and on the longer runs I do fail and end up with a higher AHR. That might be too high but I am enjoying running and getting the miles in so it is a win/win for me anyway at the moment.

    I am also trying to get 2 longer runs in a week ~90 minutes and the rest is made up of 4 and 5 milers, many on the treadmill as, amazingly, I am becoming quite acclimatised to running steady on there and it is so much easier to keep the HR under control.  One good long run today - see blog entry linked below

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  • Goodstuff JB

    I think I'll rest Friday because even as I type now I can feel my calves sparking (in a noticable but not unpleasant way) after only 2 days! I believe I know what's going on - normally I run with a midfoot / slight heel strike. For some reason running at 135 bpm speeds has me running a bit more "prancy".

    I look forward to the time when my 130 bpm speed is in the 8m/m's...it's currently in the high 10's!

  • JB

    Thanks for starting this thread.

     I have just started a Hadd base programme.  My plan is to follow Hadd to develop my aerobic system over the next 12 weeks then switch to a race specific programme inthe next 10 weeks as prep for a half marathon. Am I on the right lines?

  • Boulders welcome.

    Sounds bang on to me. 12 weeks is ample to raise the lactic threshold. Whats your running background?

  • Thanks B.  I've been running for 16 years as a replacement for football. I ran like a footballer for about 10 years but kept succumbing to lower leg injuries esp achilles.  I decided to focus on technique and toyed with Chi but have now transformed my style using POSE.  My injuries are now few and far bewteen.  I prefer longer stuff - off road duathlons, marathons and halfs.  I have been distracted over the past year gaining weight and losing condition hence the base training idea. 

     I'll keep you all posted as I progress with the trial!!

    B

  • Welcome Boulders  - that is exactly how I think the plan should be used  - as a foundation for other, more specific training. I am starting to feel the benefits now and I am looking forward to my 6 week test but even after 4 weeks I can see the benefits and my last 3 runs have encapsulated that well.

    Weds 11.5 miles home after work - AHR 131 but on a hilly course and I felt really strong and felt I could have done another 4-5 miles quite easily. Bearing in mind how little mileage I have done in recent times that is quite a bonus.

    Fri 5 miles treadmill AHR 121 but stayed at 5:15/km all the way. Previously to stay at 125 for 5 miles I had to start at 5:15 but drop down to 5:36 pace

    Sat 8.7 miles treadmill AHR 123 5:15 - 5:24 pace. The furthest I have ever run on a treadmill (previous was 10K)

    So my HR is lower for a longer time and at a faster pace and I have increased my mileage and I really do feel the benefits 

  • That's good news jb, no big surprise to me though. Keep doing the right times and hour.
    Just wait while you get into the 80% runs, then u will be blown away.

  • Boulders, glad to hear that your lower leg injuries are under control. Good luck with the Hadding. Stick around and let us know how it goes.
  • Should've read "Keep running the right times and HR"
  • Team,

    One week in and going good I think...pretty much all slow foundation building at the moment.  All runs 45 mins or there abouts and as far towards the bottom of my HR tube as I can manage.

    Last week was the first week I think I've ever run 6 times in a single week and thanks to a combo of relaxed pace and running off-road I'm feeling pretty fresh.  Calves have calmed down nicely after my rest day on Friday.

    I've got a couple of questions:

    • in the Hadd pdf Joe (the test subject) only starts "2400m mini-testing" when he reaches 50 miles per week.  Is there a good reason for this or is it OK to start sooner...like say 30 miles?  I'd like to go sooner than this for 2 reasons (1) I think that my legs may drop off before I get to 50 miles per week! (2) I'd like to get a baseline test in while I'm still relatively aerobically unfit...mainly for motivation purposes image
    • how do you pick the HR range for the mini-test?  Joe's intervals range from 140-180 HR.  I notice that JB has used a lower range from 110-150 HR.  Do I scale down from the original doc using a factor of 185/193 (my HRmax / Joe's HR max)?

    Cheers

  • LC, My HRmax is similar to yours and I use 120-160 for the 2.4k test.

    I think JB's max is 170odd so thats why he picked 110-150.

    Only reason I can guess that the test was done a little way in, is that it's less risky to have a few miles behind you as it is quite a stiff test in itself. Just make sure you are reasonably fresh when you do the test, and have a very easy day to follow.

  • Thanks Brian.

    Agreed re. test stiffness...if this is the mini-test I don't want to try the maxi-test anytime soon!

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