HADD training plan

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  • Brian61Brian61 ✭✭✭

    Keir, there wasn't much between us at Abingdon. I ran just under 2:56.

    I'm surprised you have turned to Hadd. It tends to be runners who can't convert their shorter distance times upwards to the longer distances. But yours convert really well. You obviously have a sound aerobic base already. That said, I'm not sure how much improvement you will be able to see from Hadding.

    But, my pbs are very similar to yours, and my 70% pace over a flat 10miles is no slower than 8m/miles!

    DrDan, Good solid session at Harewood.

  • Maybe i think about this too much but if you were to run at 65% of HR would this be any better or is 70% the optimum?

  • Good qeustion that Spen- I reckon it would have benefit if you did a HIGH mileage but it would be so slow a pace to be running and any little rise an you'd be walking I reckon. Just not sure its realistic, could be wrong though. That only my opinion, no facts to base that on whatsoever.
  • Hi all,

    I've not posted in this thread since introducing myself a week or so ago due to computer problems. Apologies.

    I spent the last couple of weeks getting up to 50 miles a week after recovering from Chester marathon. The vast majority of the miles have been at 75% of MaxHR (145 BPM) where my times have been around 8:05 - 8:10 mins/ mile with no drifting at all upto 12 miles which is my longest single run so far aftert Chester marathon.

    Today I ran my first 10 mile run at 160 BPM:

    Mile 1: 6:47 (146 BPM)

    Mile 2: 7:03 (162 BPM)

    Mile 3: 7:08 (161 BPM)

    Mile 4: 7:11 (160 BPM)

    MIle 5: 7:17 (160 BPM)

    Mile 6: 7:13 (160 BPM)

    Mile 7: 7:15 (160 BPM)

    Mile 8: 7:14 (159 BPM)

    Mile 9: 7:13 (159 BPM)

    Mile 10: 7:12 (160 BPM)

    The figures look pretty solid but I found it a hard training run, a solid 8/10 effort wise and my legs were starting to feel it over the last mile or so. I'm not sure I could manage 2 of these runs a week in the middle of a 70-80 mile week as prescribed in the Hadd document I read. Is this a major problem or is one run at 160 BPM and the rest at 145 BPM OK for now?

    I think Brian asked for my PBs earlier so here goes

    5K - 19:30

    10K 42:10 (soft)

    HM  1:35 (very soft)

    Marathon 3:16

    The 5K and marathon times are fair indications of my running but both the 10K and Half times are old and will get beaten as soon as I get round to running the distances on a flatish course, esp the Half Marathon time which I've already beat during the first half of a full marathon.

     

    Sorry for the lenght of the post!image

     

    Gaz

  • Brian61Brian61 ✭✭✭
    spen, as AtD said good question. Not sure about the science behind the difference between 65 and 70%. All I would say is that I have not needed to go down to 65% hadding. the only time I dip below 70 is for recovery runs within a more traditional schedule.



    gaz, the secret is don't step up till comfortable. So stick with 1 80% run for now.
  • Cheers Im a big analyser of stuff like this.   Will stick to 70%

  • Cheers Brian. I'm pretty sure I could have kept that pace up for another 3-4 miles so maybe I'll stick to one run a week but try and add a couple of miles to it over the course of the next few weeks?

    One major plus is that I found it a much more enjoyable run than my usual shorter, faster tempo run. 

  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭
    Brian. wrote (see)

    Keir, there wasn't much between us at Abingdon. I ran just under 2:56.

    I'm surprised you have turned to Hadd. It tends to be runners who can't convert their shorter distance times upwards to the longer distances. But yours convert really well. You obviously have a sound aerobic base already. That said, I'm not sure how much improvement you will be able to see from Hadding.

    But, my pbs are very similar to yours, and my 70% pace over a flat 10miles is no slower than 8m/miles!



    Brian - 90secs between us at Abingdon, we must have been running next to each other some of the way!

    To be honest, I was looking for some good base training to seem me through to the beginning of a VLM campaign mid December. However having read about Shorter and Mark Allen's approaches, combined with a bit of Lydiard knowledge I somehow found my way here.

    I do convert well, so am probably not the ideal HADD disciple, but never, ever train as low as 70%, as shows from my 10m/mileing. I am not sure if this is right for me either, but I don't think I've got much to loose from sticking with it for a few weeks and maybe try to add something a little speedier in December as a lead up to P&D. In the past I have been put off running by focusing on my weakness (speed). This was, I get to focus on my strength (endurance) yet in a new way.

  • GazOC,

    I recently had ramped up to the 80% runs this past spring. I stuck with 1 80% run initially until I could run that comfortably with little to no drift in pace/HR. This took abou 6 wks. Then I added another 80% run (did them Tuesday/Fridays) and found them to be pretty tolerable ( was running 60-70 miles per week total). It was interesting that at some point after the 80% runs got comfy (and I was doing multiple per wk) I saw huge improvements in my times at all HR. Especially my easy running...my pace came down and for the first time I could run 2 hrs at sub 140 HR (my max is 200 so 140 is 70%) at a pretty brisk pace and it felt effortless. So my advice would be to get pretty comfy on the single run first, then add teh second. Once both are easily done you could start uping effort to say 83% on one. Unfortunately I never got there as I got injured at this point (so big warning not to take these 80% runs too lightly...they are critical to fitness gains but also potentially dangerous).

    Well done on the gut check race Dan!

    Another great week last week. Still some lingering tightness around the previous sports hernia, but not getting worse and I only feel it after about 7 or 8 miles and it goes away within 30 minutes after the run. Must be some scar tissue.

  • Thanks VT. That sounds like a plan. I'll try a second run a week after my last race before Xmas in early December and see how it goes. 

  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭

    Interesting VT. What were you doing prior to introducing the 80% run in the spring? 70-70%? and for how long?

  • Hi Keir,

    I was coming off a fall marathon. I got hurt post-race (ankle sprain) and was sidelined until late December.Then I slowly ramped back up. My weekly mileage looked about like this:

    March: 40-45 miles per week

    April: 50-55

    May: 60

    June/July: 65-70

    In Jan/Feb/March/April I just tried to run at around 70-75% effort on all runs. Then at the end of April I started doing 1 80% run per week. Mid-June added 2nd 80% run.

    Interestingly, I couldn't run from July 10 until early September (and I couldn't do any type of cross training or lifting due to location of injury). In just 6 weeks of ramping up again I'm nearly spot on with my HR effort vs pace that I had earned in early summer (not doing 80% runs at present as a precaution) in the 70-75% HR range. I am surprised that the base really does stick with you. It took me nearly 6 months to earn that level of fitness the 1st time around. One other thing to note is that I never really ran more than 20-25 miles per week consistently until 2011. I was a decent sprinter in my youth but was never a stand out distance runner. When I got into distance running again recently I noticed that my marathon time didn't convert well to my 5K effort (e.g. I needed HADD base training to get my longer distance times down). Anyway, will be interested to see where  second round of extended HADD training puts me. Right now I'm just happy to be running again. Races can wait until next year.

  • Brian61Brian61 ✭✭✭

    Keir, agreed. Hadd is a great way to base train.

    I have heard of a few runners that get injured in the early days of hadding. I was one of them. I think what happens (certainly personally) is that after a few weeks the numbers improve and the runner gets carried away. I fairly quickly found myself hadding 7 days a week, as it was novel and very enjoyable (as you guys know, I love the stats). As has been said already, the danger period is the 80% runs, and particularly stepping up to 2 per week. This transition must be done very gradually, and the runner must be prepared to back-off at any time. 80% for 70mins is not a big deal in itself, but compared with the inevitable up in mileage, it is potentially a minefield.

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Spen - There have been times when I've run my LSR below 70% maxHR and the pace has still been well within the "running" category. But these have been at times when my mileage has been high and I've been in full blown Hadd mode.

    GazOC - nice subLT session. Your 5K PB is very close to mine, as is your sub-LT pace (agree, your 10K and HM times will get a good kicking next time your rcae them!). After warm up, I'd start the next sub-LT session at 7:15/m for the first 2-3 miles (ignore HR, it will be below 160 bpm) and only after that stage stick to the 160 limit. Those first few fast miles make the session harder than it needs to be. I was doing two sub-LT sessions per week and it was indeed very hard! Hadd does suggest that you "build up the distance you can run for, over time, to 10 miles", so another approach is to start with two 6M sub-LT sessiosn per week, rather than a single 10M session.

    Keir - I think there's more toothpaste in your tube. If you can run faster at low HRs, then that should convert to faster paces at higher HRs.

    VTrunner - great to see you come back so strongly after your woes!image

  • Brian. wrote (see)

    I have heard of a few runners that get injured in the early days of hadding. I was one of them. I think what happens (certainly personally) is that after a few weeks the numbers improve and the runner gets carried away. I fairly quickly found myself hadding 7 days a week, as it was novel and very enjoyable (as you guys know, I love the stats). As has been said already, the danger period is the 80% runs, and particularly stepping up to 2 per week. This transition must be done very gradually, and the runner must be prepared to back-off at any time. 80% for 70mins is not a big deal in itself, but compared with the inevitable up in mileage, it is potentially a minefield.

    I completely agree Brian. By the time I had introduced the 80% runs, I had thrown caution to the wind. Every run felt great at that point and I felt invincible. I was at 70 miles per week (more than double what I had ever done before) and was plotting ways to get more miles in (in addition to the 80% runs). I think Dr. Dan warned me at one point not to burn the cake. I completely torched it. Lesson learned...

  • That  makes sense Dan. Looking back I was pushing hard over the first couple of miles to get my heart rate up to 160 when if I'd have just run 7:15 m/m it would have got there on its own.

  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭

    Thanks for the warning Brian.

    Dr.Dan wrote (see)

    Keir - I think there's more toothpaste in your tube.

    I hope not DD. I've just had a vasectomy today! No running for 2 weeks according to the Dr. image But then again. I reckon I could start sooner so long as I wear a mankini for support! 

    But on the positve side, I now have a plan in place to be able to ramp up the mileage at 70%MaxHR and also have an idea of how that feels. 

  • GazOc sounds like your having same problem I have on the 70% runs. After a few weeks I now start at 8min pace and actually speed up slightly.
  • Yep Andy, I didn't have an idea what speed 160 BPM equated to when I started the run so the first few miles were guesswork. I'll know for next timeimage

    Ran another 10 tonight at 145 BPM (75% max) and could feel yesterdays run a little in my legs.

    Mile 1: 8:09 (128 bpm)

    Mile 2: 8:04 (138 bpm)

    Mile 3: 7:53 (140 bpm)

    Mile 4: 7:59 (140 bpm)

    Mile 5: 7:55 (138 bpm)

    Mile 6: 8:11 (138 bpm)

    Mile 7: 8:07 (138 bpm)

    Mile 8: 7:50 (143 bpm)

    Mile 9: 8:08 (140 bpm)

    Mile 10 7:59 (141 bpm)

     

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Keir - ouch.imageimageimage. And, no, I'm not referring to the mankiniimage.

    Nice numbers GazOC ... avHR was sub 72% of maxHR in the endimage.

    I did 5.4 easy miles yesterday ... 8:29/m at 73% maxHR. Legs are still mangled after Sunday's 10M trail race. Hoping for a longer version today but depends on when the BT man turns up to fix our phone line...image. Good news is that I've cleared the diary for a parkrun on Saturday ... hoping for the first sub-19 since July 2011.

    VTrunner wrote (see
    I think Dr. Dan warned me at one point not to burn the cake. I completely torched it. Lesson learned...

    I remember that ... and yes, you did torch itimage!image
    I also ignored various warnings about taking it easy after a marathon and ended up in a similar state at the end of last yearimage. Lesson learnedimageBest to be 10% under-trained than 1% over-trained... according to Haddimage.

  • Well Im having a the rest of week off running to let my little niggle clear up and im going back to this.   When I did it last year I felt the fittest I have for years.

  • Keir - running's not the only thing you won't be participating in for a couplke of weeksimage

  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭

    No. I guess I won't be riding (my bike) much either.

  • Keir, good luck with the healing nadgers. Seem to think I got an infection (little lad was 3 or 4 so 17ish years ago), so stick to the book and do the salt baths etc.

    Gaz, More good numbers.

    DrDan, Fingers crossed for the sub-19 parkrun.

    Spen, sensible head on. Hope the niggle clears up quickly.

    First little bit of faster running for me this week. Did 7miles Tuesday including 1.6 miles at 7:01 pace. Followed that up with 8.3miles yesterday, with 2.25miles at 6:44 pace. I'm feeling good to go now, but don't intend to start 8 weeks HM training till 19th November. We go to NY for 3 nights next Thursday, then Vegas for 8 nights. Hopefully NY will have the transportation sytems back by then.

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Ah ... a potentially painful typoimage.... a sub-20 parkrun ...but  one begininging with 19:XX. Sub-19 is beyond me (for now).

  • Great to see HADD world alive and kicking. Now that the autumn marathon is out of the way I should be back on here more. My Garmin settings have been changed to HR & distance only so pace does only come into the equation at the end of the run image

    BD2000: don't despair. It is slow in the beginning but slow plodding for a few months really pays dividends in the end.

    Having said that since my autumn marathon I seem to have slowed down dramatically. Before the race I would churn out 22 mile long runs at 68-70% in 8:30s. That was my pace yesterday on my first attempt at sub LT in a while image. And 70% runs are closer to 10m/m right now image. Anyway, it will come back. Few weeks down the line things will be looking brighter.

    andy: another one that's making good progess.

    Keir: blimey but you are FAST! I use HADD for base training too. I found it to be a great way to get decent mileage in without ever being knackered. We are knackered enough when we marathon train so we really can do with a less taxing phase inbetween. Hope you recover well from the vasectomy imageimage.
    I remember when Mr. Chick had his done ... he couldn't even walk, let alone run!

    Dr. Dan:
    good racing at Harewood.  

    Gaz OC: very consistent pacing on that 10 miler. Those soft PBs need some serious revising image

    VTrunner: happy to see you back running. That was quite a long time out. Sometimes we have to break our limits to find out where they are.

    Brian. wrote (see)

    I have heard of a few runners that get injured in the early days of hadding. I was one of them. I think what happens (certainly personally) is that after a few weeks the numbers improve and the runner gets carried away. I fairly quickly found myself hadding 7 days a week, as it was novel and very enjoyable (as you guys know, I love the stats). As has been said already, the danger period is the 80% runs, and particularly stepping up to 2 per week. This transition must be done very gradually, and the runner must be prepared to back-off at any time. 80% for 70mins is not a big deal in itself, but compared with the inevitable up in mileage, it is potentially a minefield.

    wise words. I found it helpful initally to take it easy on the 2nd 80% run. I think I threw 2 lots of 15mins @ 80% into a 10 miler, then 2 x 20, then 3 x 20 ...  And if it felt tough I would leave it and just run at 70% Listen to your body and all that.

    spen: hope the niggle heals quickly.

  • I'm sure this threads going 'viral' (whatever that is) image

  • Apologies DrDan, thats NEXT months targetimage

    Chick, welcome back to Hadding. It takes a full month to properly recover from a marathon - when was yours?

    10.08 miles in 80:16 @ 7:58 pace HRav=125 (67.6%)

    I've had a sore throat for 2 days, thought i was coming down with a cold. But it hasn't materialised thankfully. I've just had a nice surprise - email from Eindhoven Half informing me I've won a prize!

  • Wow this thread moves quick at times

    Took a day off yesterday to try an loose the niggle. Did some core work instead.

    Its one of them annoying ones that doesn' seem to limit running but gets a bit uncomfertable when any faster running happens. image

    Could be icing an unfinished cake now.
  • Sounds like my niggle.   I think it is a bit of postier tibilia tenditis but not surre.

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