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This gives me the option of a Tuesday off if need be,
Andy...incredible results. I would absolutely keep the 65-70% range...if you can get to 65% at a brisk pace, I'd go for that over 70. Keep up the good work. That's truly outstanding.
Dr. Dan. That looks like a solid plan to me. The only potential pitfall would be the splitting up the runs for in/home days. It might limit the your aerobic base as you'll lose the continual time on your feet. I seem to recall reading in several places that the true aerobic benefits kick in around an hour to 1.5 hours. Either way though, 60 miles per week is solid and will net you solid results. Good luck with the upcoming race (and repress the last speed session from memory). It just tells you that you are still human
BD2000. With your progression, I think you want to be able to run 10 miles at a rock steady pace and HR. So, when you can hit 70% at a constant pace for 10 miles, then you can begin to consider adding in the 80% run. Prior to that, you might be limiting your improvement by not squeezing enough toothpaste out of the bottom of the tube. Good luck.
Spen, seeing the distance of the Sun/Mon runs, I agree that the 80% should be later. But if you will only do one 80% run per week and do not plan to add a second, perhaps Thrusday would be better for it as opposed to Wednesday. That way you could have Tues/Wed to recover from the back to back long runs and then Friday/Saturday to recover from the 80%. Might give you a mental boost to separate the two hard blocks from one another as well. As someone addicted to simply getting in as many miles as I can each week, I am very jealous of this training. If I could kick up the extra time (and was fully healed/trusted my body) I would love to put in weeks like you describe
Where did you read that aerobic benefits kick in after an hour?
VTrunner wrote (see)
I feel VERY human thesedays, don't worry!I agree that longer is better for aerobic development .... but also think that you get more aerobic "bang for the buck" by doing slow miles on tired legs. The reason longer is better, when going slow, is because you need time to fatigue the initial muscle fibers so you can get to the later/deeper fiber sets and start training them ... but if the earlier ones are still fatigued from a recent run, you'll get to them more quickly on the 2nd run later that day. I'd suggest that 2 x 5 miles is probably worth a single 8 miler in aerobic terms (I admit that is a total guess) ... but for me it would be more time efficient to do 2 x 5 mile commutes than to drive and try to fit in 8 miles at lunch (I can get in early and do a couple of longer lunch runs in a working week but it's not feasible every day).
Dr. Dan, very interesting view on the benefits of splitting up a run into two segments or just doing it all at once. Your explanation rings true. I had forgotten about the requirement to fatigue the muscles to get to the other fibers. It's all mechanism in the end. I'm a scientist and you would think the science of running physiology would be straightfoward, but it's actually fairly complicated. It's part of why I enjoy it so much...I enjoy learning and testing!
Spen, I think i read that in one of Hal Higdon's training pages (not scientifically tested but I assume the man knows his stuff). I'm pretty sure I've seen it eslewhere but am blanking right now. Below is some text from his webpage:
Run Slow: I know this is tough for you. You want to go out on those long runs and BLAST! Don't! Normally I recommend that runners do their long runs anywhere from 30 to 90 or more seconds per mile slower than their marathon pace. This is very important, particularly for advanced runners who do speedwork during the week. Listen to what the Coach is about to tell you! The physiological benefits kick in around 90-120 minutes, no matter how fast you run. You'll burn a few calories and trigger glycogen regenesis, teaching your muscles to conserve fuel. Running too fast defeats this purpose and may unnecessarily tear down your muscles, compromising not only your midweek workouts, but the following week's long run. Save your fast running for the marathon itself.
Vt Runner - I can see what your saying BUT that is for long runs only!
Andy, that is a brilliant progression. Really good to hear how this has worked for you. Any chance of some more detail - how long you were running at this pace / frequency / distance before you noticed improvements. Did the improvements come on slowly or suddenly? Do you think the track work is responsible for the impromvemnts? Have you done any races or anything speedier to see how your HR has improved at faster paces? Cheers.
For anyone interested, Minni has posted this Lydiard link on another thread. Intersting views on muscle fibres.
Well, regardless of the benefits of time on feet at one stretch or two, today's run was good. Legs felt fresh again. Put in 11 and felt nearly as good at the end as the beginning.
Also, not sure what you guys wear for shoes, but I've been running mostly in the Kayano18s. Have been trying out the 19s and after about 50 miles not sure that I like them. They are about 0.5 oz lighter than the 18s, but they don't have the same cushion. I think they took too much good stuff out. I am 6'1" and 165 lbs and my legs just feel kind of beat up when I run in them.
Out of choice for long runs I'd like to use Asics Nimbus but they are pretty expensive. I recently got 2 pairs of new Asics Cumulus 13 samples off Ebay for less than half price, and a third of the price of a pair of Nimbus. Tthey arn't as good as Nimbus for cushioning but as I'm only 5'6 and 138 lbs I can't really justify the extra expense for something I don't really need.
For whatever reason, my feet are really tender (my Dad is the same way). I think that's way I need the ultraplush. The cost of shoes is really outrageous. I typically get really good deals from roadrunner sports several times a year. Typically get the shoes for about 2/3's normal price. Have tried the Nimbus 13s and 14s. I like them better than the kayano19s, but they are less cushioned than the 18s. And the 14s are lighter, which is nice.
I try to find a good deal and buy 2 or 3 pairs at the same time. Being quite light I seem to get a lot of miles out of my shoes as well, I had a pair of Asics Enduros last year with well over 1000 miles on them.
I've got 2 pairs of Nimbus. An old one which I use for shorter runs and a newer pair for LSRs. Just before my target marathon I buy a new pair and do one LSR in them before the race - then post race down grade each pair and chuck out the oldest.
Although expensive, they are nothing compared to my previous sport of cycling.
Sorry VTrunner I was not having a go!
My tenditis is playing up again! Trying to get to the bottom of this.
Andy - I am thinking about seeing if I can get my easy days down to 65%. Maybe half of my miles at this pace. Would like to know if we get any benefit from this.
Blimey, the HADD thread is in lift off mode Nice to see some new names, welcome to all
Interesting chat about length of run and benefit ... i read in either P&D or HAL HIGDON that 30mins is a guide. So less than 30 isn't worth doing ( even as a recovery ) ? I would imagine this will be dependant on the runner's stage of development though ? ie for an overweight beginner a few minutes will do some good.
In general though, surely max time on feet for any particular run within the correct (aerobic) HR range is the aim, and 1 run of 10M is better than 2 of 5M or even 2 of 6M ...... waffling ......
Anyway i was gonna post up some detailed stats but Brian's gone off somewhere so i feel it would be wasted
I've decided to structure my week along Brian's advice ( as it hasn't let me down yet ) and this week's mileage has gone like this ...
M 5 recovery ( 50mins )
T 10 (90mins)
W 7 ( 63mins)
T 5 ( 45mins)
F 10 (95mins)
Apart from Monday @ 65% max , everything else has been around 70%ish max
Tomorrow will be a welcome rest day ( i could feel in my legs this morning that this week was my biggest week yet, hence it was a bit slower ). Sunday just 13M needed to break 50M for the first time ... i feel only getting run over by a bus will stop me
Blimey, lots of brilliant posting and even more brilliant running Andy, that is a truly amazing result. How long have you been doing Hadd stuff?I work in ks but for you I convert them into miles - running by time doesn't do enough for the OCD side in me Mon: 6 @ 70Tue: 10 @ 80Wed: 5 @ 70Thu: 6 @ 75Fri: 10 @ 80Sat: 5 or 6 @ 70Sun: something between 9 and 12 @ 75. Will probably extend that to about 15 by xmas so the first long run in Jan. won't feel completely impossible Finally nailed a decent 10 miler today in 8:20 average. Still windy, still slightly erratic splits due to the wind but I have a feeling that I'm getting closer to where I want to be . 80% runs have started to feel easy again and the pace is improving too.
chick' - 37M as well Mon-Fri .... very similar mileage breakdown but you're working harder, nice running. Will be another 4 weeks at current mileage until i chuck in some sub-LT stuff.
you got me thinking there mace - I may drop one of the 80% runs again. After all, I'm still recovering, well, sort of ...
I'm still a way away from 2 80% runs a week. I would probably do them if I dropped my overall mileage but I guess that would defeat the object of the exercise a bit?
I am not planning any 80% runs until after Xmas - unless I can see that I can run @ 75% for 1hr without any HR drift.
I love it long, hard and slow
I'm I get no drift after an hour at either 75% or 80% but the 80% run is just too hard on my legs to do twice a week during a 65 mile week.
It was a non hadd session for me last night, the choice was either intervals or hill reps, I chose hill reps, 1.5 mile warmup just under 20 mins HR was up to 161.
followed by 6 hill sprints, 180bpm, 183bpm, 180bpm, 178bpm, 178bpm, 180bpm
finished with a 2 mile run.
As you can see not a good hadd session but it gives a good indication of HRMax.
Afternoon. Newbie to thread alert. I've spent the last week skim reading through the previous post
A brief background: I have being running for the past 10 years, although my running has had no real structure to it. I have got into a cycle of training for a marathon doing the race, then letting the training/fitness go and then starting again for the next marathon.
I recently ran the Preston Marathon and have entered the Manchester Marathon next April. I am looking at increasing my training from 5 days a week to 7 days. I had looked at Mike Gratton's hard training, but was concerned that it could lead to overtraining and injuries. It was then that I discovered HADD training plan and this thread.
My PB are
5km - 22 mins
10km - 46:20 mins
1/2 marathon - 1hr 44:30
Marathon - 3hrs 53
Average about 50 miles a week training for Preston, did about 6 months training. Aim was to run at 8.15/8.20 pace. Did this in training in 10 mile runs and found it easy, but during race was ok for first 10 miles then pace slowed to 8.53, therefore think I am a good candidate for HADD.
Having been inspired by this thread I have done 3 HADD runs this week. Max HR is 190. Did one run at 70% which was 10.11min/mile and two at 75% which were 9.41 and 9.44mins/mile. Found it quite invigorating to run for time and heart rate rather than miles and pace.
As I am still recovering from Marathon, my plan for next week is to do 3 x 1hr 70% runs, 3 x 1hr 75% runs and a 90 minute 70-75% run. For the next four weeks plan is to increase 90 minute run to 2hrs and maybe add a 70@80% run into the schedule in place of 1 of the 1hr 75% runs. After that will see how I feel. Think I will probably end up Hadding it all the way to the marathon in April and probably follow speedwork sessions plan describes for Joe.
Any advice on my proposed plan would be greatly appraciated. I will pop in on a regular basis to see how people are progressing and update you on my progress.
Hello all - I have been thinking about my plan and I hope to do spring Marathon then on to a early summer Ultra. So it is looking like this
End Nov End Dec
Sun 15 70% 18 70%
Mon 6 70% 10 70%
Tues 6 70% 6 65%
Weds 10 80% 10 80%
Thurs 6 70% 6 65%
Fri 10 75% 10 75%
The Sunday and Monday then increase to 5 hours in hills (Sunday) and 16 miles on road. If this is too tough the 80% run will go to ~~Thurs with an extra 65% run
Hi P666 - Sounds like you have a good plan there. Don't be in a hurry to introduce the 80% run.
Are 65% runs really worth doing Spen? Is there any info about the benefits of these from HADD himself?
How far do you think you will cover in the 5hr runs?
after reading a few threads I re read the HADD document and this might answer some questions,
I know it's about rats but,
4 groups of rats
first group, run 10 mins a day
second grp, run 30 mins a day
third grp, run 60 mins a day
fourth grp, run 2hrs a day for 5 days over 13 weeks.
the 2 hr group had the greatest increase in mitochondria at the end of the training period. also a endurance test was carried out and,
10 min rats managed 22 mins
30 min rats managed 41 mins
60 min rats managed 50 mins
2hrs rats managed 111 mins
Time to exhaustion was directly related to mitochondria development, which is directly related to time spent training,
The one thing it does not say for sure but one can only presume that the tests were continuous.
P.S.All rats running the same pace and effort i.e. 50-60%
P.S.S. hope this helps..
spen71 wrote (see)
Sorry VTrunner I was not having a go!
Understood; I should have just used this one instead .
Too many posts to digest, but one comment regarding 65 mile weeks and 2 80% runs. This is what I was doing this past spring and found it quite manageable. In fact, I was starting to add about 5-6 miles of 80% to the end of my Sunday long runs. While I got injured, I don't think it was all due to the running (I did virtually no core work which set me up nicely to get dinged). From my experience, I first got to the point where every 70-75% run was steady start to end HR vs PACE. Then it took a while for the 1 80% run to go so I was keeping steady HR and Pace; next challenge was getting that run to feel comfortable; then I added the second 80% run and I was really doing awesome despite the miles and strenuous 80% efforts. Just have to make sure you build the correct foundation at every step.
Chick, nice solid week.
Dr. Dan, read taht link regarding fibers and how to get them trained. Very interesting and, I must admit, a bit discouraging when you think about how hard you must work to get all teh fibers trained. But, as per the usual, there is no shortcut to getting the job done. Miles of trials...