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Roy S - no problem at all, any discussion is helpful. I agree I 'feel' as though I need more base work - that's not the problem, I'm not in a hurry to move up to 80%. My own timetable is the Silverstone Half in March and yes I would like to introduce some 80% work before then but I'm going to let my HADD training dictate all that.
Looking at my splits I know there is still plenty to do - I tend to ignore the first mile (shorter run) or two (longer run) regarding pace until my running has settled into a rythm. The difference in pace between mile 3 split and mile 9 split was 17secs and inbetween was a stable HR. My question really was about wether this is an 'acceptable' level of what is effectively cardiac drift.
I can only go by how I feel and at the moment I know I could not increase my intensity of workout as you are right I need more time in the base phase. Interesting times, as I've done 11 weeks and really are feeling the benefits - my HR at the start was like a roller coaster - now I can keep it stable throughout my runs - with some drop in pace over the longer run.
Last nights 6 mile session saw my pace actually improve during the run and the HR stayed steady at 71%-72% throughout. I know its working so its now down to adding the mileage to make sure that I can transfer that same improvement to my 10mile+ runs.
I wrote this before I read your last entry.
BD2000, I've given the drift question quite a lot of thought. And I don't really want to put a figure on it, either pace, HR or percentage of. My suggestion (and others may have a better idea) is that you should cut the drift to your personal minimum. By this I mean, using the same run and the same HR as a benchmark run, record the figures once (or twice I suppose) per week, on a 70-75% run, and when the drift plateaus, you are then ready to move to the next stage. I suppose drift in this case would mean pace difference between the 3rd and the last mile, and plateauing would be recording the same or very similar drift 3 or 4 times in a row. Hope this helps.
Brian/JB, thanks for the feedback.
The intial aim when I started training was to go sub 3.45. This was based on time calculated using mcmillan. During training felt comfortable running at 8.15/8.20 pace, so decided to start at that pace and see how it went.
Obvioulsy my stamina and endurance was not enough to sustain this pace for the full distance. I therefore decided to increase my training to 6/7 days a week and thus increase my mileage. I wanted to do this without riksing injury and this has led me to HADD. I see this as hopefully having a long term benefit and am not expecting a vast improvement for my marathon in April.
Brian, I am going to follow the programme you outlined above, If I was not to do the speedwork, am I best incorporating another 70mins@80/83% run. Think I would get more benefit out of the 70 mins@80/83% runs than speedwork.
Preston - Speed work is like adding the cherry on top when it comes to marathon training.
First you need the cake (base miles) and then some icing (slightly faster 80% / marathon pace work). If all goes well, then think about adding the cherry, but don't start adding cherries before you have baked and iced the cake. Any baker would be able to tell you that!
preston, I would see how you feel after weeks 6-10. I would think if you were ok at this point, I would add another 80% run. So weeks 11-15 would include 2x(90mins incl 70mins@80%). Again, if this became comfy then the progression would be to make one of these 83%. I like to progress the 80% to 83% in marathon training because the pace of this run roughly equates to eventual marathon pace. This run is a tough one though, and as such it may be necessary to play the other 90min run by ear, ie. back-off if necessary and just make it easy/steady.
Did you spot my question about long runs?
Brian - just fed my times in to the Mcmillan calculator and these are the times for HM and marathon (my PB for HM is 2:07)
Dist PB HM Mara3km 15:16 2:04 4:215km 27:20 2:06 4:2610km 58:19 2:10 4:3310m 1:35:42 2:07 4:28
As yet I'm not aiming for Marathons but concentrating on Halfs - target time less than 2 hours
Keir, Yes indeedy. The problem arises when you start eating it
BD2000, very sensible target. I would put money on you breaking 2 hours.
My glutes are killing me. Every time I go back in the gym, I say to myself 'ease in gently'. And every time I end up aching for a few days. Fartlek only today after a really good warm-up. Cross country on Sunday.
Keir wrote (see)
Preston - Speed work is like adding the cherry on top when it comes to marathon training. First you need the cake (base miles) and then some icing (slightly faster 80% / marathon pace work). If all goes well, then think about adding the cherry, but don't start adding cherries before you have baked and iced the cake. Any baker would be able to tell you that!
That's such a brilliant way of summing the whole thing up, Keir. Love it!!Sorry, been neglecting this thread a bit last week Huge congrats are in order to Gaz and Dr. Dan. Well done, boys Not much to report from me - I jogged an abysmal (6min PW anyone?) 10k on Sunday but as I was coming down with a cold this wasn't a huge surprise. Feeling better now but sticking to 70% runs only this week until I beat the lurgy. BD: like others said, those numbers mean zilch. If you end up with too much drift just start a bit slower. I usually run the first 2 or 3 miles at 60-65% to warm up and get very little drift that way.Preston: I had pretty good success with a mix of Hadd and P&D for my autumn marathon. I used Hadd for base training and then launched immediately into the 12week P&D version, ran most runs around 70-75% and combined the Hadd LT runs with the medium long P&D ones which meant I got some extra MP work in. There's not much speedwork in P&D so I kept those sessions in .
Brian, I did see your question re: long runs and responded, but I think it got lost in all the other posts.
For the marathon I did 6 20 mile plus long runs, a couple of these were progressive runs (10 miles slow and 10 miles at marathon pace). Also Did plenty of 15mile plus long runs and during the week did runs of up to 10 miles. I also did tempo/speedwork as runners world schedule, which in hindsight I think I would have been better doing longer runs during the week.
Planning to initially do 2hr long run building up to 2hrs 30 mins after a number of weeks, a start with a long run of 90 minutes plus during week.
Thanks Chick. I find most things in life can be compared to eating cake or picking cherries Get better soon.
Finding the conversation about how to convert HADD into a P&D plan really interesting. 90min, 11miles at 8.10m/m between 70-75% in the dark and wet this morning. As always, the hardest bit is getting out of bed.
preston, nothing wrong with the long run stuff then. Personally I've never tackled more than the last 5M of a 20 at MP. 10 and 10 must be tough! Maybe too tough.....
I tend to split the progressive long run into 3, generally 5M easy (normally around 65-70%), 10M moderate (75%ish) and 5M near to target MP (80%+). Another useful variation is 2M hard/easys. These are 5x(2M easy/2M at MP).
If target races are Half Marathons (lets say for the next 2 to 3 years) rather than Marathons is 30 mile a week enough with the longest run at 10 to 12 miles?
Considerations for HM's only is the actual time I'm limited to with training. I note for the big boys and girls running marathons it's 50 miles plus (as per the HADD document) but quite honestly I just can't do that. I recognise that with a lower mileage it will take me longer to squeeze everything out of the tube but I'm prepared for that. Bear in mind each run I do is 70+ mins.
Thanks Chick. I find most things in life can be compared to eating cake or picking cherries Get better soon. Finding the conversation about how to convert HADD into a P&D plan really interesting. 90min, 11miles at 8.10m/m between 70-75% in the dark and wet this morning. As always, the hardest bit is getting out of bed.
Agree, the CNBA fairy has huge persuasion powers at the mo!
Hi Chick, do you don't have a link to the P&D 12 week plan do you. I have a copy of the 18/70 plan.
Kier, I like you cake analagy, agree with your comments re: speedwork. I think I am better concentrating on base and then the icing for this marathon.
Brian, I think in hindsight the 10 mile easy/10 mile MP run, probably was too hard. I like the look of your progressive runs, will give both a try.
PM me your e-mail address Preston and I mail you a scan. Which one are you after? 12 weeks 55-70 miles or the 70+ version?
Lots of good advice as always. My poor run of training has continued with a bruised/strained foot so indoor cycling at the gym and had a go at the cross trainer but I dont really get on with that and I could feel my foot with it.
JB hope you shake the foot injury. I'm on the bench too as the knee/VMO is still a niggle.
So I've fiddled with the plan and it now looks like
(1) 3 more weeks of base with just 70% and 75% runs, building to 50 miles pw
(2) then 6 weeks base including one sub-LT run at 80%, getting to 70 miles pw, with a one week cut-back
(3) then I'm switching to an amended P&D 12wk up to 85 miles....2 x recoveries at 70%, 2 x medium runs one a 70%, the other 75%, long run at 70% unless MP finish is specified (at 83%), one subLT (which I hope to nudge up over time), and finally one non-Hadd tempo (club race) per week (replaced with a 70% jog in the MP long run weeks).
...hope the shins can handle it
Seeing the physio tomorrow so managed to hold off the running to then.
Hope it goes well Spen. I was wondering how you run today (well, yesterday now) had gone.
Sounds like a good plan Teknik (and one I might copy).
JB, Good luck with the foot rehab. Take it easy for a couple of days, then stick to ~ 70% for a while.
Teknik, hello. Hope the knee niggle disappears. Good medium term planning - Is it VLM you are aiming for?
Spen, good luck at the fizz.
Chick, sensible head on, running easy. Hope the woman-flu abates.
Gym again this morning. Managed to do a little bit more than Monday, and the glutes are less achy now. Raining heavily though, lunchtime run could be a bit of a labour of love.
Well the fizz seems to think i just had a muscle strain!
Spen - prior to HADD I had lots of niggles and within an 18 week training period I had 4 visits to the fizz (all muscle knots / pulls related to training at too high HR and I think I was building up too much lactate and not letting the 'slow' muscle fibres build enough)
Since starting HADD I've had no injuries in 12 weeks
BD2000: don't jinx it - touch wood, quick!! .Hope those injuries heal quickly JB and Spen. Tek: Plan looks perfect to me. Tempted by the 85mile plan myself. Although I tend to break down on 80+ mile weeks. Perhaps with a stronger base it can work. Otherwise I'll mess around with the schedule to peak @ 80 miles. 10 miles @ 70% done this morning in strong winds resulting in pretty uneven splits. HR stayed rock solid though. I think I'm finally getting the hang of running to feel. My HR is a lot more stable on feel than it is by watch.
wow this thread moves quick doesn`t it. thought i`d have another look in.
did me first 80% run today.
15min warm up
then the main session, (copied staright from fetch training log)
20min out along cycle path, turn around and repeat basically.
Split Summary ====
1) - 1m - 6:14(6:14/m) - 145bpm avge - 159bpm max
2) - 1m - 5:59(5:59/m) - 161bpm avge - 165bpm max
3) - 1m - 6:04(6:04/m) - 161bpm avge - 165bpm max
4) - 1m - 6:16(6:16/m) - 161bpm avge - 166bpm max
5) - 1m - 6:20(6:20/m) - 161bpm avge - 164bpm max
6) - 1m - 6:21(6:21/m) - 160bpm avge - 164bpm max
7) - 0.43m - 2:47(6:23/m) - 158bpm avge - 160bpm max
17min jog home to warm down.
the 160bpm got me a slower heart rate towards end but not really worried because i know that will improve within weeks esp with all the 70% running to back it up.
enjoying training at the moment now my mileage is back up to pre marathon levels.
didn`t have any idea what my splits were until got home to find they were actually pretty good in my opinion. would like to see consistent 6min/miling soon hopefully.
AtD, Good start. Great pace, but a bit of drift. Presumably you intend to lengthen the 80% section over the next few weeks?
Spen, That sounds good then. How much time off did the fizz suggest?
4th run in after my hols and things started to feel better, HR was lower and I ran a bit faster.
She said I was fine to run on it. Prodded and massaged it and no pain. I knew this before I went. Always the way, heal before I go!
Spen glad it's nothing serious!
Keir thanks for the endorsement
Brian - haven't decided yet but am targeting 21 April - Hamburg maybe (waves to Chick - nice run!)
BD2000 same here - slower training means fewer injuries
Out tonight to test the knee...will need wellies, I think
Andy: awesome run! Hell, that's faster than my 5k pace Tek: do Hamburg . I'd love to have some forum buddies over . Best of luck with running tonight. Weather sounds pretty abysmal
I Would like to do an overseas marathon......
Its quicker than my 5K pace too. You have some talent Andy!