HADD training plan



  • Johnny I wouldn't be disappointed in your results..... 28th Sept, lovely indian summer night, vest & shorts, muscle's heated up nicely.... Last night, damp, heavy air etc  etc etc.... When you've sat down and analysed it, you'll probaly find a lot more positive's than negative's....
  • Nice thought BN, however  the indoor treadmill at the gym somewhat reduces the strength of that argument. image
  • duplicate post
  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭
    JohnnyBike wrote (see)

    DD, Phase 1 finished last week. That was all at 75% HR (125) although my longer runs did take me over 130 on some occasions. Overall 95%+ of all runs were at 125 or less in the last 6 weeks.

    My ILTHR training starts this week with a plan to do 2 longer runs at 135 AHR and the rest of my running at 125 or less.

     I am keeping a blog  on this *(and otherrunning related themes)

    That's what I thought Johnny ... so, I really wouldn't worry about the Hadd test result at this stage. It's the ILTHR sessions that will push back the lactate threshold and you haven't started yet. Haven't time to double check, but seem to recall that "Joe" only did his first Hadd test once phase 1 was complete.
  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭
    JohnnyBike wrote (see)
    Nice thought BN, however  the indoor treadmill at the gym somewhat reduces the strength of that argument. image
    lol image

    Right finally managed to read the whole thread and pleased to see runners embarking on Hadd training for the first time.  

     I've been doing Hadd on and off for a few years but some years have been spoiled by my racing addiction and injury.   But when I've managed to get a decent spell of Hadd training I have always been rewarded by a PB or two.

    I am a much slower runner than most of you on this thread but I still think I have a PB or two left in me and I love Hadd training.

    So I will train at 70% MHR until I can run 8 to 10 miles with no cardiac drift then will start on ILTHR sessions.

    I will also do a Hadd test this weekend but will only do the first 3 HR's as I have a niggle that is healing nicely and don't want to aggravate it by any faster running.   In the early stages of Hadd it's improvements in the lower HR's (the bottom of the toothpaste tube) that I'm looking for.

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Good luck with the Hadd testing Shades.

    I tried a test run yesterday after a week off running ... but I am definitely injured. Bike and Pool for me for the foreseeable.image

    Dr Dan - sorry to hear that.   Hope you heal soon.
  • LS21LS21 ✭✭✭
    Hello all,

    Been offline for a bit but glad to see more folk joining the thread. Sorry to hear about the test run though Dan image

    Things going ok here. Enjoying my running again which is good, especially seeing as PhilPub has an each way bet on me to win next year's London Marathon image image

    Got a question though. My heart rate is drifting a fair bit (as expected). From memory in the Hadd document he gets Joe up to 50mpw of jogging and then his 'proper' week 1 looks something like:

    M - 60 mins at 145HR
    T - 75 mins at 160HR
    W - 45 mins at 145HR
    T - 60 mins at 150HR
    F - 75 mins at 160HR
    S - 45 mins at 150HR
    S - 90 mins at 155HR

    I was going to follow that (but adjust HR to my zones) but shades' comment above has me thinking now. Bearing in mind the drift I'm getting at the lower HR should I crack on as planned, or do I stick to running at 70% only and wait until my HR is rock solid before adding the Tue and Fri sessions?

    All opinions greatly received, cheers.
  • Hi LS21... I think sometimes we can get a bit hungover with Joe.... Five years before Joe started this training he had run 2 x 2.27 marathons (one in not so favourable conditions).... Over that five years he had been still running but his mileage had dropped to twenty a week, and had put twenty pound on.....

    To me, Joe had a lot of natural ability, and John Walsh (Hadd) knew that, and set up his program according.... I've adopted the Hadd training to suit my limitations and have really enjoyed it.... With yourself LS21, why not try one or two days with the adjusted HR zones, if it don't feel right then drop back to 70% running, but at least you'll gain a insight to where you are....

  • LS21LS21 ✭✭✭
    Cheers Bluenose - quite obvious when you put it like that really!

    LS21 - I've tried the Hadd training both ways,

    Option 1 -being very strict putting in the intitial base at 70% before doing any 'work' sessions

    Option 2 - doing the majority of runs at 70% and 2 or 3 runs at higher heart rates.

    I've only had any real success using the first option.   Because I knew that  I could do some of my runs at higher HR's I found myself doing more than I should and sometimes at a higher heart rate too.  

    e.g. the weather turned bad so I speeded up to get home.  

     I bumped into a running friend and ran with them for a while.  

    I did a short race

    I was short of time and wanted to get the miles in so speeded up

    etc. etc.   then looking back at my training diary, my base 70% runs slipped into the minority.   So now I am strict with myself and  put the base in first.   Yes it can be frustrating, your calf muscles can ache from running at the same cadence but it's worth it.

  • LS21LS21 ✭✭✭
    Shades - cheers for that, interesting stuff.

    I think I'm going to have a play with Option 2 for now. I take your point re discipline and I'll have to watch that carefully. However, I'm trying this is because I was a bit burnt out so I think/hope I should be ok on that score. I've certainly been very diisciplined thus far, although just as well as it is very early days!

    Agree on the tight calf muscles too - I've been in bits with mine (which has triggered mild PF), so I've been re-acquainting myself with the foam roller!

    Great this running lark innit image

  • Hi guys.... Another one with tight calfs.... Started this last Saturday, main reason being was struggling with my mileage due to pace I was training at....

    Points from first week.... Was able to complete six days training on the bounce, first time in a long time... Mileage for the week was 71km's, previously I've got into the low 50's a couple of times this year... And my highlight point is, my calf and achillies niggles have seemed to calm down due most of the running is on the back foot, and very little is pushing off on the front foot....

    So happy with first week. let the next begin....

  • Its a spot of cold weather Hadd grinding for me this week. I'm in Krakow.

    This morning's zone 1 run was fun. I was ok for the first half but I realised I was freezing my nuts-off (almost literally) on the way back. Keeping my HR to the prescribed level took a certain amount of willpower.
  • LS21LS21 ✭✭✭
    Good work fellas.

    Patience, discipline and focus = aerobic monster status image
  • Bluenose74 ; On the sore calfs issue , whilst i am still in the phase 1 of hadd training, i am finding that my calfs are really tight , should i be running more on the back foot instead of pushing of all the time ...........

  • Hi CW..... During phase one, its all about working on your Aerobic Threshold, to get a base together to be able to coup with the next step..... I personally find its got me running at a forced reduced pace, which for me is more on the heels..... They should be no reason to be pushing at this stage, unless your operating at the wrong HR.....

    Stretching before and after run, followed by a hot bath is keeping my legs fresh enough to keep with the program......

  • imagecheers bluenose74, i stretch before and after then take the hot bath , just been for a run and they were alot better , and at a more reduced HR ................ slow process but rome wasn't built in a day image
  • Hope you guys don't mind me de-lurking, and asking a question. I'm a slow runner, who is thinking about my 7th marathon next april. I'm going to go for a period of phase1 type training at 70% MHR- tediously slow, but never mind. The question is, can I still do spinning classes?- I know they will put my HR way off the scale, but I'm using different muscles, so is that OK?

    Sorry..........................probably a stupid question.........


    LS21 - you are probably more disciplined than I am!  The tight calf muscles should ease after about 3 weeks.   

    LS21 wrote (see)
    . Patience, discipline and focus = aerobic monster status image

    Great mantra.

    Bluenose - great news on the 6 days.

    Lamb Chop - even if you weren't in Krakow you would need to dress more warmly when base training as the body just doesn't heat up as usual when training.   Had a chilly reminder myself of that this week.

    curt - when we run faster we naturally run more on the forefoot, so I guess when we run slower there is less midfoot/forefoot running.    Don't try and alter the way you run, just run lightly and whatever way feels natural for you. 

    tricialitt - I don't think it's advised as anything anaerobic is supposed to delay the development of the mitochondria.   But none of us are perfect and most of us will probably 'break' the rules now and then so it's up to you.

    I've had to postpone my mini Hadd test today.   I use a measured route round a local industrial estate, unfortunately it's very windy today and will be worse on that route, I need still conditions.   Hopefully tomorrow.

  • Hello Hadders! And welcome to the newbies. I've been off-line recently, as on hols abroad with Mrs B, and wanted to chill entirely so purposefully steered away from the 'net.

    JohnnyB, Sorry to hear that the results of your test weren't favourable. As has been said, the recovery time would be crucial, and also the fact that you weren't fresh would also worsen the results. Don't get too hung-up on this. Firstly you have upped the mileage (without injury), and are enjoying the running. These are major factors to us mere mortals, who use running as a leisure activity/hobby. I hope you give it another try, and progress to the 80% runs, which do reap bigger and faster rewards (to my experience) anyway.

    On a personal note - I have now completed my recovery month since the marathon, and am quite excited about getting back into proper training. 10 weeks to the Brass Monkey! 

  • Shades I picked up some nice fur lined shorts this arvo. Say the word and I'll pick you up a pair

    Welcome back Brian!
  • Ok time to delurk for the first time in a long while.

    I'm no-where near as rapid as some of of you on the thread but I think I'm a prime candidate for this type of training.

    I've been back running seriously for the last year.  It's a lot easier than last time I put the miles in mainly due to the 36 lbs I've shed in the last year and my training has been more focussed.

     I've been rewarded with some PBs - 20:43 at 5k and 45:03 at 10k.  But - I don't put enough miles in the tank each week - quite often because I've run too hard and miss sessions as I'm recovering.  I'm also working away in the week and suffer from refuelling issues - but that issue is in hand.

     I ran a marathon early last month and was hoping to go sub-4.  By my standards I had trained hard - had put 3 20+ mile long runs in the bank and numerous others in the high teens.  I got ill in the week before the race and despite a RHR of 80+ (usual 50) on race day adrenalin took over and I got around albeit in a time just shy of 4:30. 

    Anyway - to cut a long story short.  I'm determined that in 2012 and indeed from now - I'm going to be disciplined and follow a training schedule that enables me to do the best I can in the forthcoming year however average that may be.

    As a result of running the marathon while ill - I developed a never-ending chest infection - it's finally gone.  As an asthmatic who controls my syptoms with medication I know I'm prety much completely recovered now as the reading on my peak flow meter is in excess of 800. So I'm ready to start training seriously again.

    My race schedule for next year currently has a half-marathon planned for March and then a marathon where I'm determined to go sub-4 at the end of May.

    My max HR is 185 meaning my 70% mark is at 130.

    I read the good Drs thread which suggested that if you're a slow runner like me it's best to avoid doing 10-11 minute miles and add 3 minutes onto your 5k PB- that would give me an easy run pace of c 9:40.  

    I've been out for an hour tonight on a flat course and decided to try and be strict about the 130 limit with the following results.

    Time 1:00

    Distance 5.71m

    Average HR 128


    Mile 1: 9:43 Avg HR 127

    Mile 2: 10:22 Avg HR 130

    Mile 3: 10:32 Avg HR 130

    Mile 4: 10:44 Avg HR 129

    Mile 5: 10:50 Avg HR 129

    Mile 6:  11:00 Avg HR 128

    The first mile was in the ball-park of 5k PB + 3mins a milebut it got slower then longer I ran.  I've managed 15 miles this week - the first time I've managed to run 3 times in a week since before the marathon at the start of October.

    I'm up for going for this - but some questions.   Should I stick with the 130 limit even given the painfully slow pace after the first mile?  If I do stick with the 70% runs - how quickly should I see improvement?  I could stike doing miles at 9:40ish but it's the 11 minute miles that are painful.

    Also I have 28 weeks until my marathon and 17 weeks until my planned half. How long should I persist with the base building and when should I/or should I at all shift to a more usual training schedule in the run-up to these events?

    Also if anyone has any thoughts for this week?  How many times should I aim to run 4,5 or even 6?And how long should I be spending on my feet given it's all about time rather than distance at the moment?

    Apologies for the long post - looking forward to getting stuck into this and hoping this thread will help provide the motivation to stay on course at those times when I feel like running a 5k fast.

  • Hi Stu R, and welcome to the fred. There are a few guys on here who know their stuff, and I'm sure will offer their opinion of what you should do. It is not an exact science, and doesn't work for everyone the same. Here is my advice fwiw:

    I would build-up very gradually over the next 5 or 6 weeks, aiming to enjoy your running and maximise the time on your feet. If you've run 3 times this week, I would aim for 3 or 4 next week, and try to up one of your runs to 70mins, the others between 45 and 60mins. Mix it up, and try and keep it a little more interesting by alternating between HR 130 and 135 runs. Hopefully over the 6 weeks, you will be able to get to 5 or 6 runs per week, including a couple of 70mins and a longer run at the weekend (say 90mins). At this point you should assess the situation. How do you feel? Are you coping? If you are comfortable with the miles, do you want to move up to the next level (80% running)?

    As I say, there will be other views on how to progress, then it's up to you...... 

  • Oh forgot to say, thanks Lamb Chop!
  • Hi Stu....Forget about the Hadd training for the moment..... Coming back from a illness is always differcult, but doing too much too soon could make things drastically worse, and trying to adopt a programme this early would add pointless pressure.....

    Spend the next few weeks, getting a few easy miles in your legs, and run when it feels right.... The test you done tonight, is a good example of what you've lost since the beginning of last month, and shouldn't be dismissed....


    Lamb Chop - thanks for the offer, but no thanks.image

    Stu - glad you're finally better, please don't run a marathon again when you know you are ill.

    I'm a slower runner than you but I've ignored Hadd's advice re adding 3 mins to 5k pace and using that as my training pace.   Partly cos I've never run a 5k (shudders at the thought) and I'm quite happy to plod along at a slow pace using the 70% MHR calculations.

    You have a good long period before your next marathon and if I were you I'd carry on at the 130bpm runs.  If you can gradually build up to 6 runs a week, take a rest day when you feel you need one you should start to see some improvements in 4 weeks or so.

    I finally did my mini Hadd test today, was still a bit windy so did laps of the town at 6am this morning, no traffic to stop me.   I know I've had a poor year's training and the Hadd test proved it, so plenty work to do
  • SHADES, Excellent dedication doing the 6am test. Good luck with the training. Are you not going to publish your results? Going "public" is great motvation/incentive.......
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